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The definition of nootropics used here excludes them (too many adverse health effects), but I wonder how the drugs on this list compare to e.g. amphetamines in

The definition of nootropics used here excludes them (too many adverse health effects), but I wonder how the drugs on this list compare to e.g. amphetamines in terms of pro-productivity effects.

my_other_acct 13y ago
Amphetamines are certainly more dangerous. They actually make you feel good/euphoric. Modafinil just makes you feel awake. I've heard people complain that amphetamines increase focus at the expense of creativity.
- api 13y ago
  Another related danger of amphetamines: because they make you feel good, they create a dopaminergic illusion of proficiency. Whether or not they are actually improving your proficiency can be difficult to judge.
ZirconCode 13y ago
Gwern has a great write-up on this: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall Of course it's only one data point, but a high quality one imo. edit: Just saw him linked below, should've read first -_-
thelogos 13y ago
The problem with amphetamine is, when they do work, the crash is horrible. When the crash goes away, it no longer does anything. So you have to up the dose and the cycle starts again. Some people use NMDA antagonist to reverse tolerance, but lets just say that they do a lot more than reverse your tolerance. In the end, most user end up with a permanent tolerance that no amount of drug vacation will lower. I'm not even mentioning here the whole issue of amphetamine disrupting vesicle pH gradient, causing dopamine leakage. Dopamine is very prone is auto-oxidation to quinone when they float free around in the cytosol.
- sizzle 13y ago
  you need to keep your ph levels in check for amps to absorb properly. if I have orange juice, I feel nothing working. can you share some links to the dopamine leakage you mentioned, that sounds terrible.
  - thelogos 13y ago
    The disruption of the pH gradient is the central part of amphetamine's mechanism of action. Dopamine is stored inside vesicles inside presynaptic neurons. By disrupting the proton gradient between the lipid bilayer of these vesicles, dopamine is allowed to leak out and released into the synaptic cleft. Which is part of the reason why amphetamine increases extracellular dopamine. Unfortunately, instead of being nicely packaged in vesicles, now some of these dopamine are floating around in the cytosol, making them susceptible to autooxidation to quinones, nasty stuff. Unfortunately, most of these research are behind paywall but that is the little lf what I remembered from all the reading years ago.
    - sizzle 13y ago
      thanks for the response, I'll look into it through my uni research portal

The definition of nootropics used here excludes them (too many adverse health effects), but I wonder how the drugs on this list compare to e.g. amphetamines in terms of pro-productivity effects.

my_other_acct 13y ago

Amphetamines are certainly more dangerous. They actually make you feel good/euphoric. Modafinil just makes you feel awake. I've heard people complain that amphetamines increase focus at the expense of creativity.

api 13y ago
Another related danger of amphetamines: because they make you feel good, they create a dopaminergic illusion of proficiency. Whether or not they are actually improving your proficiency can be difficult to judge.

ZirconCode 13y ago

Gwern has a great write-up on this: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#adderall Of course it's only one data point, but a high quality one imo. edit: Just saw him linked below, should've read first -_-

thelogos 13y ago

The problem with amphetamine is, when they do work, the crash is horrible. When the crash goes away, it no longer does anything. So you have to up the dose and the cycle starts again. Some people use NMDA antagonist to reverse tolerance, but lets just say that they do a lot more than reverse your tolerance. In the end, most user end up with a permanent tolerance that no amount of drug vacation will lower. I'm not even mentioning here the whole issue of amphetamine disrupting vesicle pH gradient, causing dopamine leakage. Dopamine is very prone is auto-oxidation to quinone when they float free around in the cytosol.

sizzle 13y ago
you need to keep your ph levels in check for amps to absorb properly. if I have orange juice, I feel nothing working. can you share some links to the dopamine leakage you mentioned, that sounds terrible.
- thelogos 13y ago
  The disruption of the pH gradient is the central part of amphetamine's mechanism of action. Dopamine is stored inside vesicles inside presynaptic neurons. By disrupting the proton gradient between the lipid bilayer of these vesicles, dopamine is allowed to leak out and released into the synaptic cleft. Which is part of the reason why amphetamine increases extracellular dopamine. Unfortunately, instead of being nicely packaged in vesicles, now some of these dopamine are floating around in the cytosol, making them susceptible to autooxidation to quinones, nasty stuff. Unfortunately, most of these research are behind paywall but that is the little lf what I remembered from all the reading years ago.
  - sizzle 13y ago
    thanks for the response, I'll look into it through my uni research portal