8 ms·

Letter to MIT community regarding support of students behind ‘Tidbit’

144 points by chaz 13y ago

jimktrains2 13y ago
Was the hack-a-thon in NJ? I'm still trying to figure out how they're involved in any of this...
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  It was not. Nor are the authors from NJ or have any ties to the state. Yeah, it's pretty confusing.
- shawn-butler 13y ago
  They have no jurisdiction whatsoever. Students with help of EFF have rightly directed the State of New Jersey to the nearest cliff from which to jump. https://www.eff.org/files/2014/02/03/rubin_v._nj_complaint.pdf https://www.eff.org/files/2014/02/03/rubin_v._nj_complaint.p... I have no idea what they are smoking of late in New Jersey but the entire state government seems dysfunctional / delusional.
  - jimktrains2 13y ago
    Oh man, I love good GFY legal documents.
    - Bluestrike2 13y ago
      Sometimes, they're the only appropriate response. This is one of those times.
legutierr 13y ago
Basically an opposite response to the one they provided in the Aaron Swartz case. Sure, there are big differences between the two cases (among them, the fact that Swartz was not himself a student at MIT, and the fact that the Tidbit team faces not prosecution but a subpoena--albeit a subpoena that presages prosecution). Nevertheless, the narratives are strikingly similar: boundary-pushing, widely-respected hackers confront aggressive and ambitious prosecutors, where the right kind of support from the school can make all the difference in the world. Is MIT being hypocritical here, or did they learn something from the Aaron Swartz tragedy? Or maybe the differences between the the cases are actually what is significant.
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  Well, the NJ Attorney General is probably a less imposing opponent than the DOJ. But I agree.
- s3r3nity 13y ago
  MIT has a new President at the time of this writing vs. the Swartz case. Could be a key driver.
- beering 13y ago
  Oh boy, where to start? * Swartz did not create something novel. Tidbits did. * Swartz was not an MIT student. Tidbits authors were. * Swartz violated policies/rules of a couple non-profits (MIT and JSTOR). Tidbits did not. * Swartz misused MIT computer resources. Tidbits did not. * Jurisdiction in Swartz' case made sense. It doesn't make sense in the Tidbits situation. * Swartz' case was a federal incident. Tidbits incident is (currently) a state of NJ matter. * Swartz was charged by the feds. Tidbits has not (yet) been charged by anyone. Whatever opinion you hold about Swartz' case, I think you should understand that it's not very similar to this one, outside of the fact that MIT is involved in both.
  - jkelsey 13y ago
    I think your all points are fairly taken, except, * Swartz did not create something novel. Tidbits did. Ha, what?! RSS, Creative Commons, Reddit, Demand Progress, for starters. Edit: Okay, a few people have pointed out the context of legal action being pursued against against individuals. I suppose I'm being reactionary, so I withdraw my point.
    - mrmincent 13y ago
      Aaron was involved with a lot of cool stuff, but his case had nothing to do with anything you've mentioned.
    - vletmixutechre 13y ago
      beering is clearly speaking within the context of the Swartz's legal troubles. Within that context, beering's comments are valid.
sasd 13y ago
MIT failed to support Aaron Swartz, with very dire consequences. Do the right thing, MIT.
- diminoten 13y ago
  Do the right thing, MIT, or we'll kill ourselves! Seriously, can we not do this every time something legally interesting happens at MIT? The two situations are, as demonstrated very aptly above, unrelated.
  - goldenkey 13y ago
    "Do the right thing, MIT, or we'll kill ourselves?" I'm surprised you have the audacity to simplify what happened to Aaron Schwartz to a contrived ultimatum. And it is wholly related, given that Aaron was a member of the MIT community.
    - Haasy 13y ago
      Except he wasn't a member of the MIT community. He was a Fellow at Harvard University Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, but not a student or faculty member at MIT.
      - goldenkey 13y ago
        However, as the report notes, Swartz had connections to the Institute: "He was a regular visitor to the MIT campus and interacted with MIT people and groups both on campus and off. … He was a member of MIT's Free Culture Group, a regular visitor at MIT's Student Information Processing Board (SIPB), and an active participant in the annual MIT International Puzzle Mystery Hunt Competition. Aaron Swartz's father, Robert Swartz, was (and is) a consultant at the MIT Media Lab. Aaron frequently visited his father there, and his two younger brothers had been Media Lab interns."
        diminoten 13y ago
        Aaron didn't fall under the MIT support umbrella. These folks do. Stop making unhelpful comparisons, please.
judk 13y ago
Such a weird case. Tidbit doesnt even do anything interesting, it is a demo of a clone of an existing piece of software (used to steal CPU cycles from victims, which is why NJ is interested). NJ is I guess confusing cause and effect, and suspects these MIT 'geniuses' of supplying thr 'prohibitively complex' code to the known criminals and then trying to use that same code to win honors at a hackathon?
- TwoBit 13y ago
  I'm trying to understand what actual laws the students could possibly have broken.
  - dublinclontarf 13y ago
    This is the US we are talking about here, there has to be SOME law which they have broken. Considering everyone breaks the law every day without realising it.
    - hga 13y ago
      Breaking a New Jersey law when your only connection with it was attending the funeral of a grandmother some time ago is a bit more difficult....
  - seniorsassycat 13y ago
    > Then, in December, Rubin was contacted by the New Jersey attorney general’s office, which asked for, among other things, a list of all websites “affected by the Bitcoin code,” copies of “all contracts and/or agreements” with customers, “[a]ll documents and correspondence concerning all breaches and/or unauthorized access to computers by you,” and “[a]ll codes, source codes, control logs, and installation logs concerning the Bitcoin code.”
timtadh 13y ago
If like me you haven't heard of this story here is some more background: http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N4/abelson.html http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N4/abelson.html . Still looking for some project information I will update the post when I find it. EDIT: eff post: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/02/eff-challenges-new-jersey-subpoena-issued-mit-student-bitcoin-developers https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/02/eff-challenges-new-jer... EDIT: hackathon page: http://nodeknockout.com/teams/shoop-team http://nodeknockout.com/teams/shoop-team EDIT: Looks like they have taken down a lot of the posts linked from nodeknockout.com
rigadorje 13y ago
In other news, the widely-considered-independent country of Joldova, which lies partly in Asia, partly in Europe, recently announced that the Tidbits code, which may or may not be deployed yet, and may possibly infringe on Joldovian patents, may or may not potentially affect some or no websites that may or may not be located east or west of the main highway. They are therefore preparing an International Court of Justice (or INTERPOL) requisition, which may or not be issued on paper or made available openly, via P2P file-sharing sites, and possibly copyrighted.
fredgrott 13y ago
It just points out that our Federal computer law is somewhat imprecise and runs counter to the mission of appropriate computer usage. Okay, I am somewhat older..if I was under the same computer laws today my actions in Purdue computer labs during the early 1990s would place me in the prosecutor cross hairs.
jrjr 13y ago
we're all best buddies now, please unlearn the Aaron Swartz matter regards, the staph
chesh 13y ago
I was so embarrassed at the time of Aaron Swartz that the MIT that had been so good to me, was doing so much evil. They allowed a culture of bureaucracy and rules to dominate the values of innovation and principles. I am pleased that under Reif real changes have been made that seem to be seeing the light with cases like Tidbit. No doubt this was part PR exercise. But behind every PR campaign is also a public affirmation to stake a new path. Let's hope MIT can continue to return to its roots and set a great example to the tech community.

144 points by chaz 13y ago

jimktrains2 13y ago

Was the hack-a-thon in NJ? I'm still trying to figure out how they're involved in any of this...

adamnemecek 13y ago
It was not. Nor are the authors from NJ or have any ties to the state. Yeah, it's pretty confusing.
shawn-butler 13y ago
They have no jurisdiction whatsoever. Students with help of EFF have rightly directed the State of New Jersey to the nearest cliff from which to jump. https://www.eff.org/files/2014/02/03/rubin_v._nj_complaint.pdf https://www.eff.org/files/2014/02/03/rubin_v._nj_complaint.p... I have no idea what they are smoking of late in New Jersey but the entire state government seems dysfunctional / delusional.
- jimktrains2 13y ago
  Oh man, I love good GFY legal documents.
  - Bluestrike2 13y ago
    Sometimes, they're the only appropriate response. This is one of those times.

legutierr 13y ago

Basically an opposite response to the one they provided in the Aaron Swartz case. Sure, there are big differences between the two cases (among them, the fact that Swartz was not himself a student at MIT, and the fact that the Tidbit team faces not prosecution but a subpoena--albeit a subpoena that presages prosecution). Nevertheless, the narratives are strikingly similar: boundary-pushing, widely-respected hackers confront aggressive and ambitious prosecutors, where the right kind of support from the school can make all the difference in the world. Is MIT being hypocritical here, or did they learn something from the Aaron Swartz tragedy? Or maybe the differences between the the cases are actually what is significant.

adamnemecek 13y ago
Well, the NJ Attorney General is probably a less imposing opponent than the DOJ. But I agree.
s3r3nity 13y ago
MIT has a new President at the time of this writing vs. the Swartz case. Could be a key driver.
beering 13y ago
Oh boy, where to start? * Swartz did not create something novel. Tidbits did. * Swartz was not an MIT student. Tidbits authors were. * Swartz violated policies/rules of a couple non-profits (MIT and JSTOR). Tidbits did not. * Swartz misused MIT computer resources. Tidbits did not. * Jurisdiction in Swartz' case made sense. It doesn't make sense in the Tidbits situation. * Swartz' case was a federal incident. Tidbits incident is (currently) a state of NJ matter. * Swartz was charged by the feds. Tidbits has not (yet) been charged by anyone. Whatever opinion you hold about Swartz' case, I think you should understand that it's not very similar to this one, outside of the fact that MIT is involved in both.
- jkelsey 13y ago
  I think your all points are fairly taken, except, * Swartz did not create something novel. Tidbits did. Ha, what?! RSS, Creative Commons, Reddit, Demand Progress, for starters. Edit: Okay, a few people have pointed out the context of legal action being pursued against against individuals. I suppose I'm being reactionary, so I withdraw my point.
  - mrmincent 13y ago
    Aaron was involved with a lot of cool stuff, but his case had nothing to do with anything you've mentioned.
  - vletmixutechre 13y ago
    beering is clearly speaking within the context of the Swartz's legal troubles. Within that context, beering's comments are valid.

sasd 13y ago

MIT failed to support Aaron Swartz, with very dire consequences. Do the right thing, MIT.

diminoten 13y ago
Do the right thing, MIT, or we'll kill ourselves! Seriously, can we not do this every time something legally interesting happens at MIT? The two situations are, as demonstrated very aptly above, unrelated.
- goldenkey 13y ago
  "Do the right thing, MIT, or we'll kill ourselves?" I'm surprised you have the audacity to simplify what happened to Aaron Schwartz to a contrived ultimatum. And it is wholly related, given that Aaron was a member of the MIT community.
  - Haasy 13y ago
    Except he wasn't a member of the MIT community. He was a Fellow at Harvard University Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, but not a student or faculty member at MIT.
    - goldenkey 13y ago
      However, as the report notes, Swartz had connections to the Institute: "He was a regular visitor to the MIT campus and interacted with MIT people and groups both on campus and off. … He was a member of MIT's Free Culture Group, a regular visitor at MIT's Student Information Processing Board (SIPB), and an active participant in the annual MIT International Puzzle Mystery Hunt Competition. Aaron Swartz's father, Robert Swartz, was (and is) a consultant at the MIT Media Lab. Aaron frequently visited his father there, and his two younger brothers had been Media Lab interns."
      - diminoten 13y ago
        Aaron didn't fall under the MIT support umbrella. These folks do. Stop making unhelpful comparisons, please.

judk 13y ago

Such a weird case. Tidbit doesnt even do anything interesting, it is a demo of a clone of an existing piece of software (used to steal CPU cycles from victims, which is why NJ is interested). NJ is I guess confusing cause and effect, and suspects these MIT 'geniuses' of supplying thr 'prohibitively complex' code to the known criminals and then trying to use that same code to win honors at a hackathon?

TwoBit 13y ago
I'm trying to understand what actual laws the students could possibly have broken.
- dublinclontarf 13y ago
  This is the US we are talking about here, there has to be SOME law which they have broken. Considering everyone breaks the law every day without realising it.
  - hga 13y ago
    Breaking a New Jersey law when your only connection with it was attending the funeral of a grandmother some time ago is a bit more difficult....
- seniorsassycat 13y ago
  > Then, in December, Rubin was contacted by the New Jersey attorney general’s office, which asked for, among other things, a list of all websites “affected by the Bitcoin code,” copies of “all contracts and/or agreements” with customers, “[a]ll documents and correspondence concerning all breaches and/or unauthorized access to computers by you,” and “[a]ll codes, source codes, control logs, and installation logs concerning the Bitcoin code.”

timtadh 13y ago

If like me you haven't heard of this story here is some more background: http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N4/abelson.html http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N4/abelson.html . Still looking for some project information I will update the post when I find it. EDIT: eff post: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/02/eff-challenges-new-jersey-subpoena-issued-mit-student-bitcoin-developers https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/02/eff-challenges-new-jer... EDIT: hackathon page: http://nodeknockout.com/teams/shoop-team http://nodeknockout.com/teams/shoop-team EDIT: Looks like they have taken down a lot of the posts linked from nodeknockout.com

rigadorje 13y ago

In other news, the widely-considered-independent country of Joldova, which lies partly in Asia, partly in Europe, recently announced that the Tidbits code, which may or may not be deployed yet, and may possibly infringe on Joldovian patents, may or may not potentially affect some or no websites that may or may not be located east or west of the main highway. They are therefore preparing an International Court of Justice (or INTERPOL) requisition, which may or not be issued on paper or made available openly, via P2P file-sharing sites, and possibly copyrighted.

fredgrott 13y ago

It just points out that our Federal computer law is somewhat imprecise and runs counter to the mission of appropriate computer usage. Okay, I am somewhat older..if I was under the same computer laws today my actions in Purdue computer labs during the early 1990s would place me in the prosecutor cross hairs.

jrjr 13y ago

we're all best buddies now, please unlearn the Aaron Swartz matter regards, the staph

chesh 13y ago

I was so embarrassed at the time of Aaron Swartz that the MIT that had been so good to me, was doing so much evil. They allowed a culture of bureaucracy and rules to dominate the values of innovation and principles. I am pleased that under Reif real changes have been made that seem to be seeing the light with cases like Tidbit. No doubt this was part PR exercise. But behind every PR campaign is also a public affirmation to stake a new path. Let's hope MIT can continue to return to its roots and set a great example to the tech community.