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His point is valid. The ability to dismiss these tips would be ideal. However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 is (witho

His point is valid. The ability to dismiss these tips would be ideal. However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 is (without even taking a minute to learn the basics). In my opinion, these mandatory tutorials are a necessary evil. The real issue here is that Windows 8 somehow recognizes Wacom pads as touch inputs (with swiping from sides support). If it recognized it as a mouse, it would simply tell the user to use "hot corners": - Top-Left: App switching - Bottom-Left: Start screen - Top/Bottom-Right: Charms menu A one-time unskippable tutorial that you can get through in less than 10 seconds is probably not worth complaining about. Displaying the wrong directions to Wacom users is.

raverbashing 13y ago
There is no mandatory user tutorial for the iPad. True, sometimes you need to teach the user to do something, but if you're forcing this even for basic usage, you're doing it wrong (unless this was a really specific tool/procedure, and even then)
- DCKing 13y ago
  This is not true. The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage. See vim or Blender as examples. I would argue that Windows 8, even in its RT form, is far more powerful than iOS in this sense. Once you get used to all the swipes, it is much quicker to access OS features, perform multitasking and do all kinds of things. Microsoft did not build a bad OS by any means. As someone who can take this learning curve, I really enjoy using it on a tablet (I think it's much superior than iOS and superior to Android when it comes to the core OS), and I also like its Metro features a lot on my desktop. What Microsoft did very wrong however is building this interface for an audience where the overwhelming majority is not willing to take this learning curve. It's simply not built for the "average user".
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" Or better said: "The most powerful tools that don't care for user experience often require a lot of 'teaching'" Unless you're talking about something like a CNC machine, Electronic test equipment, EEC machine, etc 'It's simply not built for the "average user"' No? Then they shot themselves in the foot, because Windows is associated with that, more than anyone. Hence, they can't complain it's not selling well. It's very easy to shy from making things easy to use behind "it has more features".
    - hanifbbz 13y ago
      "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" I guess he meant tank or nuke or something ;)
  - bztzt 13y ago
    The problem with Windows 8 on traditional PC form factors is it deliberately ignores ("blows up") the model that's been fixed over 20 years in users' heads and replaces it with a new model they've attempted to design from scratch from first principles. It's not that the new model is especially complex or badly designed on its own terms, it just clashes with the model people already have in their heads. That is also why people often say the Windows 8 UI works well with touch, but is unusable with mouse and keyboard. The inherent usability characteristics are actually not hugely different between input methods, it's just that with touch there's not as much competition in people's heads from an entrenched existing model.
- sp332 13y ago
  The iPhone ran tons of ads showing people how to navigate and use swipes and pinch-to-zoom before the product was released. That's really not an obvious thing to do with a phone, if you've never seen it before.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    Yes. There's also the Apple Stores where you can play with them, so it was already clear in the mind of early adopters how to use it. Cleverly subtle.
  - hanifbbz 13y ago
    The main complain is not the "education" thing. It is the compulsory nature of it and the fact that Windows even mis-detected a digital pen as a touch interface that makes it totally useless and rather annoying.
    - jodrellblank 13y ago
      compulsory I keep seeing this idea around Win 8 discussions. You aren't compelled to buy it. So a company no longer offers a product you like, that doesn't mean you have to buy something you don't like from them. Even if you do have to buy, you make the choice - Win 8 and trade offs or Mac or Linux or Chromebook or second hand Win 7. It's not compulsory that you have Win 8.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    It seems that 2 year old babies that have never seen the ads knew how to do these things just fine. Heck, there are even videos of cats playing with an iPad and getting it to scroll and such. Swipe with finger to scroll, tap to press, and even pinch-to-zoom are as basic interaction as interaction goes. You only need a second to get them if shown, and most people can even discover them instantly without being shown.
    - roasty 13y ago
      It still takes a 2 year old time to learn, same for a cat. They don't instantly get it.
rwallace 13y ago
It's the other way around. There's no way to test your software with every hardware device on Earth or to guarantee that it can't have bugs. If it wasn't the Wacom pad it would be something else. That's understandable and forgivable because it's unavoidable. The real issue is the immense and unforgivable stupidity of writing a program that behaves as though it were the master and the human were its servant. A manual override is not an optional extra, a checkbox item or something open to debate. It is an absolute necessity, because the human operator understands what's going on and the machine doesn't. Anyone who doesn't understand that should not be writing user-facing software.
teamonkey 13y ago
I think the problem is the drivers (Microsoft's or Wacom's). It may be overriding the Windows gesture support in favour of it's own? I own a Wacom Bamboo without touch input and I'm fairly sure it prompted me to use the pen to perform the gestures, not a finger. In any case I could certainly follow the instructions with the pen. On my Surface I can use both pen and touch to perform the gestures. I agree about the need to skip tutorials though. After 4 Win 8 installs it gets tiring.
joe_the_user 13y ago
* However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 * Most people complain anyway about how unusable Windows 8 is and rightly so. Your argument here does seem to reflect Microsoft's attitude - that Windows 8 is the ambassador of the latest crap and its job to train you on this crap whether you like it or not. Never mind that you own this hardware and you should be able to do as you will with it. I suppose MS imagines that shifting to a subscription model for everything would solve that problem of theirs - then the custom would own nothing and have recourse at having junk foisted on them.
- miguelrochefort 13y ago
  Your point?

raverbashing 13y ago

There is no mandatory user tutorial for the iPad. True, sometimes you need to teach the user to do something, but if you're forcing this even for basic usage, you're doing it wrong (unless this was a really specific tool/procedure, and even then)

DCKing 13y ago
This is not true. The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage. See vim or Blender as examples. I would argue that Windows 8, even in its RT form, is far more powerful than iOS in this sense. Once you get used to all the swipes, it is much quicker to access OS features, perform multitasking and do all kinds of things. Microsoft did not build a bad OS by any means. As someone who can take this learning curve, I really enjoy using it on a tablet (I think it's much superior than iOS and superior to Android when it comes to the core OS), and I also like its Metro features a lot on my desktop. What Microsoft did very wrong however is building this interface for an audience where the overwhelming majority is not willing to take this learning curve. It's simply not built for the "average user".
- raverbashing 13y ago
  "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" Or better said: "The most powerful tools that don't care for user experience often require a lot of 'teaching'" Unless you're talking about something like a CNC machine, Electronic test equipment, EEC machine, etc 'It's simply not built for the "average user"' No? Then they shot themselves in the foot, because Windows is associated with that, more than anyone. Hence, they can't complain it's not selling well. It's very easy to shy from making things easy to use behind "it has more features".
  - hanifbbz 13y ago
    "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" I guess he meant tank or nuke or something ;)
- bztzt 13y ago
  The problem with Windows 8 on traditional PC form factors is it deliberately ignores ("blows up") the model that's been fixed over 20 years in users' heads and replaces it with a new model they've attempted to design from scratch from first principles. It's not that the new model is especially complex or badly designed on its own terms, it just clashes with the model people already have in their heads. That is also why people often say the Windows 8 UI works well with touch, but is unusable with mouse and keyboard. The inherent usability characteristics are actually not hugely different between input methods, it's just that with touch there's not as much competition in people's heads from an entrenched existing model.
sp332 13y ago
The iPhone ran tons of ads showing people how to navigate and use swipes and pinch-to-zoom before the product was released. That's really not an obvious thing to do with a phone, if you've never seen it before.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  Yes. There's also the Apple Stores where you can play with them, so it was already clear in the mind of early adopters how to use it. Cleverly subtle.
- hanifbbz 13y ago
  The main complain is not the "education" thing. It is the compulsory nature of it and the fact that Windows even mis-detected a digital pen as a touch interface that makes it totally useless and rather annoying.
  - jodrellblank 13y ago
    compulsory I keep seeing this idea around Win 8 discussions. You aren't compelled to buy it. So a company no longer offers a product you like, that doesn't mean you have to buy something you don't like from them. Even if you do have to buy, you make the choice - Win 8 and trade offs or Mac or Linux or Chromebook or second hand Win 7. It's not compulsory that you have Win 8.
- coldtea 13y ago
  It seems that 2 year old babies that have never seen the ads knew how to do these things just fine. Heck, there are even videos of cats playing with an iPad and getting it to scroll and such. Swipe with finger to scroll, tap to press, and even pinch-to-zoom are as basic interaction as interaction goes. You only need a second to get them if shown, and most people can even discover them instantly without being shown.
  - roasty 13y ago
    It still takes a 2 year old time to learn, same for a cat. They don't instantly get it.

rwallace 13y ago

It's the other way around. There's no way to test your software with every hardware device on Earth or to guarantee that it can't have bugs. If it wasn't the Wacom pad it would be something else. That's understandable and forgivable because it's unavoidable. The real issue is the immense and unforgivable stupidity of writing a program that behaves as though it were the master and the human were its servant. A manual override is not an optional extra, a checkbox item or something open to debate. It is an absolute necessity, because the human operator understands what's going on and the machine doesn't. Anyone who doesn't understand that should not be writing user-facing software.

teamonkey 13y ago

I think the problem is the drivers (Microsoft's or Wacom's). It may be overriding the Windows gesture support in favour of it's own? I own a Wacom Bamboo without touch input and I'm fairly sure it prompted me to use the pen to perform the gestures, not a finger. In any case I could certainly follow the instructions with the pen. On my Surface I can use both pen and touch to perform the gestures. I agree about the need to skip tutorials though. After 4 Win 8 installs it gets tiring.

joe_the_user 13y ago

* However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 * Most people complain anyway about how unusable Windows 8 is and rightly so. Your argument here does seem to reflect Microsoft's attitude - that Windows 8 is the ambassador of the latest crap and its job to train you on this crap whether you like it or not. Never mind that you own this hardware and you should be able to do as you will with it. I suppose MS imagines that shifting to a subscription model for everything would solve that problem of theirs - then the custom would own nothing and have recourse at having junk foisted on them.

miguelrochefort 13y ago
Your point?