9 ms·

So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains a

So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward. This isn't restricted to just people, either, it's been observed in monkeys (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_monkeyfairness.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_..., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 -- it's a short video and pretty hilarious, worth a watch). At the same time, capitalism has serious flaws, also exploited by human psychology. Capitalism rewards not just work and the investment of capital but also greed and cheating. So, when looking for a new economic model, why not go back to psychology? Is it really true that most people don't want to work? There are some people who are content to receive a small stipend and spend their lives jut getting by without doing very much, but does that describe enough people to cause the collapse of a strong welfare society? I think we probably are headed towards a post-scarcity (or low-scarcity) economy. Food costs as percentage of income in the U.S. have fallen quite a bit just in the last thirty years (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-28/americas-shrinking-grocery-bill http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-28/americas-shr...). People are already going to find that it takes less real effort to survive (http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21596529-americas-labour-market-has-suffered-permanent-harm-closing-gap http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21596529..., posted earlier to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7235810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7235810). A different economic model seems inevitable. Likewise, there will probably always be jobs that people don't want to do. Take oil rig work for example: hard, dangerous work, and it pays well, starting at the U.S. median wage for unskilled, inexperienced labor (http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/10/news/economy/oil_workers/ http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/10/news/economy/oil_workers/) and going up from there. As long as demand for this labor doesn't fall, if the available labor pool continues to shrink, those jobs should net greater incomes. Maybe we'll see an economy, not quite like Star Trek's, but with a large leisure class and a well-paid class of plumbers, construction workers, mechanics, and technicians. That would be kinda neat.

Gupie 13y ago
"peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward" This is the actuality for most people in the West or the Third World. Thinks sweat shops, paddy fields, StarBucks...
- noblethrasher 13y ago
  But to the degree it's tolerated, it's arguable that it's due to a want of class consciousness, at least in the U.S. Ironic that I got to use Marxism to attack communism.
- Ensorceled 13y ago
  The effect discussed is only present if you can see the other person get the unequal reward. And it is not tolerated well at all, I've seen highly paid engineers quit when they find out other engineers are paid slightly more.
alextingle 13y ago
Thank you for the monkey fairness video link. Made my day.
fulafel 13y ago
You describe life in the rich west. It's not looking as rosy for most people. It'll be interesting to see how the perception of capitalsm's problems shifts as we wade towards the deeper end of the climate crisis. Will human suffering invoke more actionable empathy when it's in the form of agricultural collapse vs current income inequality problems?
- BugBrother 13y ago
  >> [ capitalism's] current income inequality problems I will assume you talk about the income inequality between nations. That is, in most cases, not solvable by other countries. To make a country (without military conflicts) better is not rocket science. You get infrastructure and education to work well in addition to limiting corruption. The corruption part is probably enough, since non-corrupt politicians will fix the rest. After that, a generation or two later you have a South Korea. Estonia is getting there. For examples of this, see East Europe inside the EU after 1991. The main failures with corruption are Romania and Bulgaria, which also have horrible economic inequality. The politicians even steal the money for roads! The point is, income inequality is not a problem of economics. The problem is that packs of thieves have stolen a country/government and sucks the lifeblood out of it.

Gupie 13y ago

"peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward" This is the actuality for most people in the West or the Third World. Thinks sweat shops, paddy fields, StarBucks...

noblethrasher 13y ago
But to the degree it's tolerated, it's arguable that it's due to a want of class consciousness, at least in the U.S. Ironic that I got to use Marxism to attack communism.
Ensorceled 13y ago
The effect discussed is only present if you can see the other person get the unequal reward. And it is not tolerated well at all, I've seen highly paid engineers quit when they find out other engineers are paid slightly more.

alextingle 13y ago

Thank you for the monkey fairness video link. Made my day.

fulafel 13y ago

You describe life in the rich west. It's not looking as rosy for most people. It'll be interesting to see how the perception of capitalsm's problems shifts as we wade towards the deeper end of the climate crisis. Will human suffering invoke more actionable empathy when it's in the form of agricultural collapse vs current income inequality problems?

BugBrother 13y ago
>> [ capitalism's] current income inequality problems I will assume you talk about the income inequality between nations. That is, in most cases, not solvable by other countries. To make a country (without military conflicts) better is not rocket science. You get infrastructure and education to work well in addition to limiting corruption. The corruption part is probably enough, since non-corrupt politicians will fix the rest. After that, a generation or two later you have a South Korea. Estonia is getting there. For examples of this, see East Europe inside the EU after 1991. The main failures with corruption are Romania and Bulgaria, which also have horrible economic inequality. The politicians even steal the money for roads! The point is, income inequality is not a problem of economics. The problem is that packs of thieves have stolen a country/government and sucks the lifeblood out of it.