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The key thing here is that this is strictly about what happens to transactions which don't have confirmations yet. The standard recommendation has always been t

The key thing here is that this is strictly about what happens to transactions which don't have confirmations yet. The standard recommendation has always been to wait an hour (6 confirmations) before crediting someone as having sent you Bitcoins, and doing so is an absolute defense against all the shenanigans being talked about.

patio11 13y ago
I have not heard Bitcoiners routinely advise each other "If you buy something with Bitcoins, you probably should not attempt to buy something else for an hour." That's a necessary component of any defense against these shenanigans, at least until the One True Bitcoin Client starts to differentiate between change which is 6+ confirmed and change which isn't yet.
Xylakant 13y ago
> The standard recommendation has always been to wait an hour (6 confirmations) before crediting someone as having sent you Bitcoin Seriously, how should Bitcoin replace real money if that remains true? There's a book store round the corner accepting bitcoin - so I go, select a book, pay and hang around an hour until I get to leave with the book? At least I'd have enough reading material...
- patio11 13y ago
  The Bitcoin community has two answers to this: #1: "Well if you buy a book with a credit card, the bookstore has no guarantee that that charge actually settles successfully." #2: "Most people won't use Bitcoin directly. They'll keep their Bitcoin with a trusted provider. The trusted provider can verify capability to pay as quickly as a SQL transaction, via any mechanism mutually acceptable to it and the bookstore, which need not involve the blockchain. Providers which routinely allow their customers to steal from other members of the ecosystem won't be trusted for very long, and be forced to transact through the blockchain versus being being extended instantaneous credit." The response to #2 is typically "We could call those providers 'banks'" and the Bitcoin community is, how shall I put this, divided by how much they like that outcome.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    I tend to buy my books in cash. That kind of settles immediately with the transfer of the note. Disputing a credit card charge for a card present charge with either a signature or a pin is much much harder than the typical internet "card not present" transaction, so #1 is sort of moot. Actually, in germany (and other parts of europe) it would be uncommon to pay a book with credit card, we all have debit cards that clear immediately. #2 just replaces the current system with the same system but another name and different actor, so I still don't get where the advantage lies :) I can totally see how bitcoin can work in online transactions where credit cards are currently used, especially if fulfillment happens after some delay, but I don't see it replacing cash unless we mint little bitcoins with an embedded chip that contains a non-removable amount of satoshis. But that's very much not viable.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    WRT #2, it's very different to need a wallet for small spending amounts (say, $100) and a bank. You don't get to wield much power when your costumers are using you for buying coffee at Starbucks, but not when buying a car or another big purchase, or something shipped from somewhere (since it's reasonably to wait one hour for those to process).
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      So I need two wallets? One that I keep with a <bitcoin-bank> for small purchases that need to clear quickly and one that I keep for larger purchases. That doesn't sound practical. Also, if I understood patio11s first post correctly, that large-purchase wallet would still need an hour after each purchase to clear properly [1]. Now, I don't run around and buy a couple of cars one after the other from different provides but it quite often happens that I need to book flights, hotel accommodations and rental cars for a business trip and I can't wait an hour after each step to go forward to the next one. More wallets here? Am I missing something? [1] The ideal case seems to be to wait until a transaction is in the blockchain before sending the next one from the same wallet, but that could in theory take even longer.
      - 13y ago
- deleted 13y ago
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patio11 13y ago

I have not heard Bitcoiners routinely advise each other "If you buy something with Bitcoins, you probably should not attempt to buy something else for an hour." That's a necessary component of any defense against these shenanigans, at least until the One True Bitcoin Client starts to differentiate between change which is 6+ confirmed and change which isn't yet.

Xylakant 13y ago

> The standard recommendation has always been to wait an hour (6 confirmations) before crediting someone as having sent you Bitcoin Seriously, how should Bitcoin replace real money if that remains true? There's a book store round the corner accepting bitcoin - so I go, select a book, pay and hang around an hour until I get to leave with the book? At least I'd have enough reading material...

patio11 13y ago
The Bitcoin community has two answers to this: #1: "Well if you buy a book with a credit card, the bookstore has no guarantee that that charge actually settles successfully." #2: "Most people won't use Bitcoin directly. They'll keep their Bitcoin with a trusted provider. The trusted provider can verify capability to pay as quickly as a SQL transaction, via any mechanism mutually acceptable to it and the bookstore, which need not involve the blockchain. Providers which routinely allow their customers to steal from other members of the ecosystem won't be trusted for very long, and be forced to transact through the blockchain versus being being extended instantaneous credit." The response to #2 is typically "We could call those providers 'banks'" and the Bitcoin community is, how shall I put this, divided by how much they like that outcome.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  I tend to buy my books in cash. That kind of settles immediately with the transfer of the note. Disputing a credit card charge for a card present charge with either a signature or a pin is much much harder than the typical internet "card not present" transaction, so #1 is sort of moot. Actually, in germany (and other parts of europe) it would be uncommon to pay a book with credit card, we all have debit cards that clear immediately. #2 just replaces the current system with the same system but another name and different actor, so I still don't get where the advantage lies :) I can totally see how bitcoin can work in online transactions where credit cards are currently used, especially if fulfillment happens after some delay, but I don't see it replacing cash unless we mint little bitcoins with an embedded chip that contains a non-removable amount of satoshis. But that's very much not viable.
- icebraining 13y ago
  WRT #2, it's very different to need a wallet for small spending amounts (say, $100) and a bank. You don't get to wield much power when your costumers are using you for buying coffee at Starbucks, but not when buying a car or another big purchase, or something shipped from somewhere (since it's reasonably to wait one hour for those to process).
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    So I need two wallets? One that I keep with a <bitcoin-bank> for small purchases that need to clear quickly and one that I keep for larger purchases. That doesn't sound practical. Also, if I understood patio11s first post correctly, that large-purchase wallet would still need an hour after each purchase to clear properly [1]. Now, I don't run around and buy a couple of cars one after the other from different provides but it quite often happens that I need to book flights, hotel accommodations and rental cars for a business trip and I can't wait an hour after each step to go forward to the next one. More wallets here? Am I missing something? [1] The ideal case seems to be to wait until a transaction is in the blockchain before sending the next one from the same wallet, but that could in theory take even longer.
    - 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]