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Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program
- shmerl 13y agoWhat about the Narus program which collects a major portion of the Internet traffic without any warrant and probable cause? Do they claim it's also legal?
- jdreaver 13y agoTake a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything is right vs left to some people. There is no discussion of the consequences of this action, just name-calling an unsubstantiated claims. I hate discussing politics because the cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics required to fully support Republicans or Democrats makes my head hurt.
- baddox 13y agoAre either of those actually examples of political tribalism? The first seems to be mocking the ignorance of many partisans, while the second seems to be attributing political tribalism to Rand Paul. Neither commenter seems to be exhibiting political tribalism.
- diminoten 13y agoThis is right vs. left. He wouldn't have done this to a Republican president, do you think he, Rand Paul, would have? Do you know much about Rand Paul? The man's entire political career is based on acting the partisan part. Like it or not, everything literally is partisan politics. No issue in the US rises above partisanship. That's the system we live in, you'll just have to accept that or attempt to change it directly.
- jdreaver 13y agoI know it is right vs left, and I don't care. Being a pawn in the right vs left debate is a waste of time. I care about the actual effects of this suit. > Like it or not, everything literally is partisan politics. No issue in the US rises above partisanship. That's the system we live in, you'll just have to accept that or attempt to change it directly. Are you kidding me? There is so much to life besides partisan politics. Deciding not to care about partisan politics is one of the best decisions of my life. It is indeed possible to change the world without using the government and partisan politics. Trying to steer the current political system to do your bidding is a waste of time unless you have a tremendous amount of resources and willpower. For the average citizen, the only winning move is not to play.
- gnaritas 13y agoNot playing is not playing, it's not a winning move, it's no move. Nor did he say anything about life being partisan politics; he said issues, i.e. political issues are all partisan. > It is indeed possible to change the world without using the government and partisan politics. For 99.999% of people, no, it's really not. Voting is the most powerful thing you can do to change things in any meaningful way. Those who show up run the show; those who don't show up follow the laws passed by those who do.
- tanon500 13y agoIf you have the power and opportunity to change a wrong, but do nothing, then you're as culpable as whoever caused the wrong in the first place. In this case we're proving that a wrong occurred by attempting to get retribution for the alleged wrong - whoever is targeted (be they Rep. Dem. Lib.) is inconsequential for the general public, aside from adjusting voting patterns in the future. Once the suit determines culpability, we can find ways to prevent the wrong from happening in the first place.
- diminoten 13y agoIf what you say is true, then every single second of every single day that I'm not spending my time maximizing my benefit to society and others, I'm living in... well, "sin" or whatever moral bad state you would like to call it. You may choose to live like that, but I prefer to judge myself in a way that doesn't make literally everything I do an immoral act.
- dmix 13y agoBoth parties are slowly merging into one anyway: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/us/politics/boehner-to-bring-debt-ceiling-to-vote-without-policy-attachments.html?from=homepage http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/us/politics/boehner-to-... The only notable difference these days is the fringes (where Rand Paul and Tea Party reside) vs the single party.
- jdreaver 13y agoAgreed. Another reason to disregard partisan politics, because the two sides are really one on the most important issues of our time.
- ProAm 13y agoGovernment shutdown of 2013?
- saalweachter 13y agoYes, like immigration, health care, women's rights, food stamps, voting rights, minimum wage, social security, and taxation.
- wutbrodo 13y agoThat's a pretty _horrible_ example of the parties coalescing into a single viewpoint, since intentionally defaulting on our debts is an extremist view by any definition. That's like saying "clearly the two parties are basically the same because they both don't support nuking Russia". "Both parties agree not to act like lunatics" is a terrible example of "the parties are merging". A much less bizarre example would be the way the parties have moved towards each other on issues like national security, the finance industry, etc.
- dmix 13y agoThis is not an extreme example. The alternative was conditional terms on expanding the debt limit, not defaulting on the debt. The bill passed without any additional restrictions on spending or changes to collection. The national debt is one of the biggest issues in the country right now and both parties are doing little to stop its expansion. As I said in my original comment, the fringe are the ones who are legitimately different from the single party, for example, as you mentioned, the Tea Partiers would support either defaulting or significant restrictions on spending.
- nhebb 13y agoEver since reading about the Robbers Cave Experiment [1], I have trouble looking at politics without seeing it through that lens. [1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/
- mkaziz 13y agoAhh, a great classic. You can view all humanity through that lens, all the time.
- gruseom 13y agoThat study is a classic that belongs alongside Milgram (obedience to authority) and Zimbardo (Stanford prison experiment). I'm not sure why it isn't better known. The three go together perfectly.
- ryguytilidie 13y agoThat is the main problem I see with modern politics. It basically becomes "stereotypes of the left versus stereotypes of the right". A friend of a friend told me that he didn't see Gay marriage being outlawed in many states as a civil rights issue. I said I did. At this point, he asked "so you're a democrat?" I said "not really, I don't think of myself as associated with either party" and his answer was, no joke, "well how can I understand why you believe what you do without knowing what party you're in?" as if every Democrats brain is connected to one thought center and the same with Republicans. The strawmen that come out of this are utterly insane. "well you think what Christie did with closing the bridge and putting lives in danger was bad? What about Benghazi?!?!" as if you had to be on team Benghazi is bad or team Christie closing the bridge was bad and there were no other options. It's incredibly depressing really.
- rohunati 13y agoThis is exactly the problem. We could be having deep, analytical discussions about the principles and philosophies that form the basis of our political convictions. Instead, our conversations are tainted by partisanship.
- saraid216 13y agoI'm sorry. We're busy training the next generation of knowledge workers. Things like "how to construct a cogent argument based upon a reasoned moral framework" or "how to distill essential points and deduce the original line of reasoning from a long-form essay" are artsy fartsy humanities unnecessary to getting a paycheck in the real world.
- rohunati 13y agoHaha if that's the case, then we're all going to end up like drones. We'll only be able to do what we're told and we won't be able to think for ourselves. We'll never be able to think deeply about issues, because hey -- that's useless! That won't get me a paycheck! Innovation is inherently interdisciplinary. If we aren't exposed to different ways of thought, we won't be able to approach problems from the variety of different perspectives that are both necessary and key to creative problem solving.
- larrys 13y ago"a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base." This is for publicity purposes nothing more than that. (Of course he also believes in what he is doing but the main driver is to give him even more household recognition). After all Paul represents Kentucky. So why fight a battle for all of us. I hate when politicians do things like this (In NY Spitzer did this and Schumer does the same). They take on issues that garner much press mention which is not to say they don't have benefits to those in their state.) See "grandstanding" http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-english/grandstanding http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-engli...
- x0054 13y agoI would venture to guess that their are a lot of people in United States who believe in cutting government spending and fiscal responsibility but at the same time are socially liberal, and believe that people should be given opportunities and left alone to do what they will with their life and have sex and marry who ever they want (assuming consent and free will). Basically, something tells me that there are a lot of people who understand that the problems we are facing are more complex than the sound bite solutions which our politicians provide. Why isn't there a 3rd party. I am not talking about libertarians, or anarchists, or the Green Party. I want to vote for the party of "reasonable" people who will use logic, science, and well documented facts to get my vote, not rhetoric and scare tactics. The "balance" party perhaps.
- shasta 13y ago> Why isn't there a 3rd party? http://www.gametheory.net/News/Items/120.html http://www.gametheory.net/News/Items/120.html
- cwisecarver 13y agoI totally agree. I am the guy you just described and I think of myself as a libertarian, before the Tea Party ruined the term. I'd like us to rein in spending and make lawmakers accountable for the money they vote to spend. At the same time I'm in favor of absolutely anyone doing absolutely anything they want so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. Marry three desk lamps and a fishing pole if you want. How does that in any way affect me? Smoke some green tea leaves and a polyester blanket if it makes you happy. You burn down my apartment building and we're gonna have words. We don't need to be spending our blood and treasure to butt into other countries' affairs. I want the post-WWII days back where we didn't bother anyone that didn't bother us first.
- tmuir 13y ago>I want the post-WWII days back where we didn't bother anyone that didn't bother us first. Perhaps you meant the word "days" literally. The CIA, created in 1947, solely exists to butt into other countries affairs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re...
- ekianjo 13y agowait until they call Paul a racist.
- glasz 13y agowelcome to the false left-right paradigm. most people just don't realize that it's deliberately being used to have the sheep running in circles every 4 years. meanwhile, there's only one political agenda on all sides. but it's ok. go back to sleep.
- nl 13y agoRight vs Left is a pretty boring way of looking at it, and I find different lens much more useful. One surprising one is the power of the executive branch vs the other branches of government. Views on that don't fall along right vs left lines at all, and I think there are plenty in the Republican party (as well as the Democratic party) who will see this as an attempt to limit presidential power, and will be opposed to it on that ground.
- habitue 13y agoPolitics is the mind-killer: http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/ It takes a concerted effort to think of political issues purely consequentially.
- frodopwns 13y agoMore political theater from Rand Paul. If only he was as transparent to the average voter.
- troym 13y agoWould a similar suit by Pelosi also be theater to you?
- paul_f 13y agoOf course not. This is the problem with modern politics in a nutshell.
- kaonashi 13y agoPeople making false equivalency arguments on internet message boards?
- baddox 13y agoNo. Any actions or statements by politicians I like are legitimate and well-intended, while any actions or statements by politicians I dislike are nothing more than political theater.
- Aloisius 13y agoIt depends. Filing a lawsuit against Obama is political theater regardless of who does it simply because he is immune from civil lawsuits for actions relating to his job. However, suing everyone and anyone else (as Paul seems to have done), isn't. So what Paul has done is a little political theater and a little practical. If Polosi had done the same thing, the result would be the same. As a legislator though, it seems the far more practical way of ending phone surveillance would be to draft a bill making it explicitly illegal.
- abtinf 13y agoThere is already a law that makes it illegal: the fourth amendment, further backed by extensive case law. And the Fourth Amendment was intended for exactly this case. One of the last actions of the English which precipitated the American revolution was a general warrant issued in a secret court in England which gave English soldiers authority to search any American's home at any time without any reason for suspicion.
- saalweachter 13y agoMy two minutes of internet research says that this is going to get tossed. A President can't be sued for actions taken as President, but can be sued for personal actions. A Daily Beast article mentions this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/30/can-bachmann-really-sue-king-obama.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/30/can-bachman...
- waterlesscloud 13y agoThis happens all the time. Google "v. <any recent president's name>"
- saraid216 13y agoYeah, both the Daily Beast article and the Slate article both misread the Nixon v. Fitzgerald case. If you dig two links down, you get this: http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1981/1981_79_1738 http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1981/1981_79_1738 which states, > The Court held that the President "is entitled to absolute immunity from damages liability predicated on his official acts." This sweeping immunity, argued Justice Powell, was a function of the "President's unique office, rooted in the constitutional tradition of separation of powers and supported by our history." If Obama signs a law that says everyone who sells beer has to pay a fine, and you sue him over it, and it's found to be an unjust law, then what you can't do is demand that he personally pay you for the lost business. What you can do is get the law he signed thrown out.
- gizmo686 13y agoMinor nitpick, a president can be sued, however they have the right to refuse to be sued.
- winslow 13y agoWhat would that imply for this case then? Assuming President Obama refuses to be sued, does that throw the case out? Or does the case still proceed with the other defendants? Can all the other defendants refuse to be sued as well?
- higherpurpose 13y agoGood stuff, but it kind of bothers me that so much focus is put on the phone surveillance program, when I find the surveillance of private Internet communications so much more damaging, especially since they are also the future of all communications.
- zhemao 13y agoI'm not certain because I'm definitely not a legal expert, but I think this might be because there is more legal precedent that warrant-less phone monitoring is illegal compared to warrant-less IP traffic monitoring. Would anyone with a better understanding of surveillance law care to comment?
- gizmo686 13y agoIf you want a reference point on creating change through the courts, you should look into the civil rights movement. The general idea is that you make cases that you have a good chance of winning, and slowly build up legal precedent. If we tried to protect all internet communications (through the courts), and loose, then that precedent will take a long time to overturn.
- k-mcgrady 13y agoWhy is the lawsuit against Obama? Shouldn't it be against the USG or the part of the government that passed the law (or against the NSA for the data collection)? It seems strange to sue an individual politician, president or not.
- dreamdu5t 13y agoI'm not a lawyer but my guess is because its not a question of legality, it's a question of an elected official breaking the law. When the Mayor of a town embezzles the city's money... the city is the defendant not the plaintiff.
- wutbrodo 13y agoIANAL, but my assumption was that Paul the suit has no chance of success from a legal perspective, leaving only the PR angle. From the PR angle, "Rand Paul sues Obama" gets a hell of a lot more attention than "Rand Paul sues such-and-such agency".
- ethana 13y agoI figure the NSA, like CIA, is under ultimate authority of the Commander-in-chief and POTUS. So the lawsuit have to file against whatever administration is currently in office.
- zacinbusiness 13y agoAre any of these organizations really under anyone's authority?
- saraid216 13y agoSo, looking at the complaint, it actually names Obama (POTUS), Clapper (Director of Nat. Int.), Alexander (Director of NSA), and Comey (Director of FBI) as defendants. This seems reasonable to me. This is the bulk of page 5.
- abtinf 13y agoThe lawsuit is against Obama because the actions were taken by the executive branch, Obama is the President, and the President is the executive branch.
- jfc 13y agoThe complaint - https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1017524-rand-paul-complaint.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1017524-rand-paul-co... What's frustrating is that I had to search through 5 articles/blog posts to find it. Why do media outlets post articles on any lawsuit without a link to the complaint?
- zacinbusiness 13y agoBecause they don't want you clicking out of their site. Why give away those page views?
- saraid216 13y agoI searched through more before I gave up and refreshed HN hoping for a link. Thank you for finding it.
- zacinbusiness 13y agoI dislike politics in general because, really, it's all just a giant reality tv show. I lost faith when I was in high school, actually, because President Bush stood on national television and said that they couldn't find any weapons in Afghanistan and that was proof that they were there. And nobody, or at least nobody that I had exposure to, thought that was the stupidest thing they had ever heard. Since then, I've seen politicians vote on a law and then admit to not having read it. I've seen politicians simply not go to work because they don't want to not vote, but they also don't want to vote. And then I've seen filibustering. While there are several laws that I disagree with that have been killed by a filibuster, I think it's entirely disgraceful that there is a tactic which can prevent a popular bill from becoming law simply because someone else decides to be an asshole for 17 hours. And the whole voting on a bill without reading it? I think anyone caught doing that should spend the rest of their life in prison, period. These guys are master manipulators, most or all of them are ivy league educated, top of their class, cut-throat business men and attorneys. And yet people think these are the guys that should be running a country. The whole thing, start to finish, is a farce and it's appalling to watch.
- saryant 13y agoMy father is a lobbyist in DC and he calls it "Hollywood with ugly people." Sounds about right.
- erichocean 13y agoThat's the joke about DC in Hollywood, too.
- twoodfin 13y agoI lost faith when I was in high school, actually, because President Bush stood on national television and said that they couldn't find any weapons in Afghanistan and that was proof that they were there. Afghanistan? I assume you mean Iraq, and still I don't have any idea what speech of Bush's you're talking about. Can you help me out?
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- zenbowman 13y agoVery thankful we have a few good men like Rand still in politics.
- threeseed 13y agoPlease. There is nothing good about Rand. He is just cynically trying to stoke the libertarian base.
- Uhhrrr 13y agoI think the desire to not be spied upon without warrant goes beyond the libertarian base.
- MartinCron 13y agoSo this is just broad-based empty pandering, then?
- murph45 13y agoI agree there's nothing good about Obama and that he just cynically tries to stoke the socialist base every time he does something.
- tzs 13y agoHow can you tell? As far as I can tell, he has never done anything while in Congress that actually accomplished anything non-trivial and non-transitory. Read his bills, instead of his press releases, if you want to actually know something about him.
- ck2 13y agoI thought the supreme court ruled once that a sitting president could not be sued. Because I vaguely remember some people wanted to sue Bush and were not allowed.
- joering2 13y agoClapper (defendant) is in my opinion the most disgusting dirtbag that perfectly represent the broken state of our political system and its rotting that we are currently funcion in. This piece of trash lied to the Congress (something that hundred of thousands of people commit a jailtime in this moment as i write this) and further explained himself as "i choose the least truthful statement". Well, it wasn't up to him to decide whether he should tell the truth or not, he was answeing to rightfully appointed commision. Imagine a society you live in where people you pay salaries for (public servant) choose to lie in your face and perfectly get away with it. This banana republic approach that a cocroach like Clapper can personally decide whether or not he will tell the truth, and not being punished in any way for blunt lies, but rater praised and kept on his post, perfectly summarize the rotten system we live under, where all three branches merge into one and someone like Clapper can call another dirtbag named Holter and asked him not to press charges so life can just abrubtly go on...