8 ms·

I don't think any of this is specific to AirBnb or Uber. What is described here is just plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say,

by joesmo 13y ago

I don't think any of this is specific to AirBnb or Uber. What is described here is just plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America), especially in regards towards black people. The black friend in the story knew this and wasn't surprised. It's only surprising to people who think this is something of the past, as if somehow people have improved and this shouldn't exist. The idea that people as a whole change, improve, and become less racist, while romantically appealing, couldn't be further from the truth.

rayiner 13y ago
The difference is that you can sue Hyatt if you are discriminated against, which keeps people in line. It's very difficult to sue AirBnB for the actions of a host.
- spikels 13y ago
  You could sue the host. But that violates the rule that you only sue people with money. There are not many but this is one disadvantage of wealth.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    It doesn't matter whether the host is rich or not. One of the key ways of proving a discrimination claim is to show a pattern of action, which calls into doubt the host's pretextual reasons for denying service. Much harder to do that with an individual than a business.
    - wtvanhest 13y ago
      This is a tangent to your point, but if I remember correctly you are an attorney so I replied to you thinking you may no more about this, but even if it is racist, I doubt it is illegal. The fair housing act definitely doesn't protect short term renters staying in someone's home. "The Fair Housing Act applies to landlords renting or leasing space in their primary residence only if the residence contains living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by three or more other families living independently of each other, such as an owner-occupied rooming house."
      - rayiner 13y ago
        I'm not a civil rights attorney and this is not legal advice, yada yada. You're referring to the exemption in 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(2), which says: "Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to . . . rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence." I.e. it doesn't apply to my parents renting out their basement apartment. However, many properties on AirBnB do not meet the requirements for this exception because the other does not make the property his residence. Under 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(1), a single family house is not excluded from the act (after December 31, 1969), if the rental is achieved through the "use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings . . . ." I don't know if AirBnB falls within that (broad) language (see subsection (c)), but if it does, it would be illegal to discriminate in the renting of a house you own for the purpose of renting it out on AirBnB (which is becoming more common). In any case, my point is that when you are discriminated against by a hotel, at least you have legal recourse. As you point out, unless an AirBnB host has a property he owns for the purpose of renting out, you don't even have that.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
gizmo686 13y ago
People as a whole have been getting less racist. The only problem is that "less racist" still is not as good as many people think it is.
- afterburner 13y ago
  People are also more racist than normal when their assets are on the line (aka paranoia).
  - theorique 13y ago
    There are financial consequences for getting this one wrong. Research shows that if a neighborhood is "becoming more black" or "becoming more white", that has implications for property valuation. (Yes, this comes from racism, in case you were wondering.) Who wants to be the guinea pig to wager the value of his house on diversity? (... and it's fine if you do, just be aware that it has implications)
    - afterburner 13y ago
      Yes, I suppose one always want to skew towards the richer in these cases, and race happens to be a commonly held indicator of wealth or lack thereof. It's two ugly things mixing together.
      - theorique 13y ago
        There exists a win-win equilibrium for upper class people. It's an advantage for wealthy, educated blacks to live in mostly white neighborhoods, because it shows that they've "made it" according to the (admittedly racist) standards of success. And it's an advantage for the white majority in such a neighborhood to have a few blacks around to demonstrate how incredibly non-racist they are. (Obviously, the underclass (of whatever race) gets left out to dry.)
        tw268 13y ago
        I don't get the romanticization of the under class. In poor neighborhoods, there are lots of noise, litter, and crime and few good role models. Why would you want that in your neighborhood? To prove how open-minded you are?
wyager 13y ago
> plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America) Have you ever lived in any continental European country? As someone who has spent about half their life in northern and western Europe and the other half in America, I can tell you with 100% confidence that Europeans are, in general, more xenophobic and racist than Americans.
- afterburner 13y ago
  They are, but because they are mostly "comfortable" in their homogenous societies, they don't express as much fear through action as in the US. As the minority gets bigger, fear and negative action rises. I think in the US this was compounded by a lingering fear of a literal slave revolt. In other words, it's easier to be racist but nice anyways if you don't fear the tiny minority.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  The more interesting comparison might be between perception and reality within the U.S. I would speculate that upper middle class people (who tend to have louder voices) have more egalitarian views than whatever median.
- richardjordan 13y ago
  Having grown up in the UK, lived in many countries around the world, and now been in the US for 15 years I dispute that. To fight anecdote with anecdote... Moving from the UK to the US I was shocked by the pernicious levels of institutionalized racism and the undercurrent of subtle racism. It's everywhere. There's certainly more of a veneer of tolerance here, which covers up a deep seated pathological racism, which is missing in parts of Europe, so when you experience racism in Europe it's more blatant and obvious. What you do get a lot in Europe is a lot of discomfort with the muslim minorities - whether white, or of color - which is often falsely equated with racism (because racists are often also Islamophobic too). However it's a mistake to conflate the two. With the religious issues it's mostly a stance on the totalitarian nature of the religion and the cultural practices that adherents look to bring, which are often incompatible with accepted norms and values in those countries (particularly regarding the treatment of women).
greendata 13y ago
There is a huge issue with racism in the US but you're wrong to think it's a US problem or that it's worse in the US on average. Spend a few months in Europe, especially the east and south, and you'll quickly change your mind. Also, checkout Japan and China. Those places are in their own way at least as racist as the US is today. Racism is a universal human problem. Humans naturally divide things into different groups and are almost "programmed" to make snap statistically unsound judgements based on a few data points which may or may not be correct. Humans are also "programmed" to want to eat sugar till they drop. These are issues where we can use our higher minds and education to alleviate if not solve.
- jfc 13y ago
  >>Racism is a universal human problem. Totally agree with this. Human beings often denigrate other people, based on relatively minor differences, with a view to elevating themselves. It is utterly childish, and yet people persist in doing it frequently.
ggchappell 13y ago
> racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America) A number of replies on this, but some have, I think, understated the issue. In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. If racism is not seen to be a problem elsewhere, then it's largely because of ethnic homogeneity, not lack of racism. EDIT: It looks like I'm being misinterpreted here. Obviously, there is racism in the U.S. It is a huge problem. We all know this. But the reason it might seem to be a larger problem than elsewhere is because of our unusually ethnically diverse population, not because of unusually high levels of racism. Also things like our incarceration rate -- the highest in the world, by far. To a large extent, the political boundaries of the world are drawn along ethnic lines. Where this doesn't happen: former colonies in Africa, much of Eastern Europe after the world wars, etc., etc., you often get people killing each other. Look at the Rwandan genocide, or the mess that Yugoslavia turned into when it stopped being just Yugoslavia, or the decades of troubles between India and Pakistan, or any number of other examples, to see the result. And then note that these kinds of things are not happening in the U.S. -- not to that extent, anyway.
- interpares 13y ago
  >In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. Even given the institutional racism evident in things like incarceration rates and educational outcomes?
  - ggchappell 13y ago
    Yes. To clarify, I'm not saying that racism is not a problem in the U.S. Certainly it is. If other countries don't have huge number of minorities in prison, then it is because (1) they don't have huge numbers of minorities, or (2) they don't have a lot of people in prison. But in the U.S. we have both the world's highest incarceration rate and an unusually ethnically diverse population. Add to that the racism that everyone has, and we get the kind of problems you mention.
- richardjordan 13y ago
  How can anyone possibly believe this? Not just attacking you but genuinely I find this incomprehensible. America is a deeply racist society. It's built on the genocide of the Native Americans who are still largely kept in poverty in virtual prison camps we insultingly call reservations, by racist policies. The legacy of racism against African Americans is still deep and real - have you any experience as a black person in the Southern states? If so then I'll respect your opinion on that topic, but as a White person who came to the US from a different country, and then lived in Texas for a few years, the levels of racism are disgraceful. The entire hispanic ag-business-driven immigration problem hinges on institutionalized racism. Then we don't even touch on disparities like over-concentration of poverty in minority communities, incarceration rates, under-representation in positions of power and seniority etc.
theorique 13y ago
The idea that people as a whole change, improve, and become less racist, while romantically appealing, couldn't be further from the truth. Well, some things improve. We don't have slavery or Jim Crow laws any more.

by joesmo 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago

The difference is that you can sue Hyatt if you are discriminated against, which keeps people in line. It's very difficult to sue AirBnB for the actions of a host.

spikels 13y ago
You could sue the host. But that violates the rule that you only sue people with money. There are not many but this is one disadvantage of wealth.
- rayiner 13y ago
  It doesn't matter whether the host is rich or not. One of the key ways of proving a discrimination claim is to show a pattern of action, which calls into doubt the host's pretextual reasons for denying service. Much harder to do that with an individual than a business.
  - wtvanhest 13y ago
    This is a tangent to your point, but if I remember correctly you are an attorney so I replied to you thinking you may no more about this, but even if it is racist, I doubt it is illegal. The fair housing act definitely doesn't protect short term renters staying in someone's home. "The Fair Housing Act applies to landlords renting or leasing space in their primary residence only if the residence contains living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by three or more other families living independently of each other, such as an owner-occupied rooming house."
    - rayiner 13y ago
      I'm not a civil rights attorney and this is not legal advice, yada yada. You're referring to the exemption in 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(2), which says: "Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to . . . rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence." I.e. it doesn't apply to my parents renting out their basement apartment. However, many properties on AirBnB do not meet the requirements for this exception because the other does not make the property his residence. Under 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(1), a single family house is not excluded from the act (after December 31, 1969), if the rental is achieved through the "use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings . . . ." I don't know if AirBnB falls within that (broad) language (see subsection (c)), but if it does, it would be illegal to discriminate in the renting of a house you own for the purpose of renting it out on AirBnB (which is becoming more common). In any case, my point is that when you are discriminated against by a hotel, at least you have legal recourse. As you point out, unless an AirBnB host has a property he owns for the purpose of renting out, you don't even have that.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]

gizmo686 13y ago

People as a whole have been getting less racist. The only problem is that "less racist" still is not as good as many people think it is.

afterburner 13y ago
People are also more racist than normal when their assets are on the line (aka paranoia).
- theorique 13y ago
  There are financial consequences for getting this one wrong. Research shows that if a neighborhood is "becoming more black" or "becoming more white", that has implications for property valuation. (Yes, this comes from racism, in case you were wondering.) Who wants to be the guinea pig to wager the value of his house on diversity? (... and it's fine if you do, just be aware that it has implications)
  - afterburner 13y ago
    Yes, I suppose one always want to skew towards the richer in these cases, and race happens to be a commonly held indicator of wealth or lack thereof. It's two ugly things mixing together.
    - theorique 13y ago
      There exists a win-win equilibrium for upper class people. It's an advantage for wealthy, educated blacks to live in mostly white neighborhoods, because it shows that they've "made it" according to the (admittedly racist) standards of success. And it's an advantage for the white majority in such a neighborhood to have a few blacks around to demonstrate how incredibly non-racist they are. (Obviously, the underclass (of whatever race) gets left out to dry.)
      - tw268 13y ago
        I don't get the romanticization of the under class. In poor neighborhoods, there are lots of noise, litter, and crime and few good role models. Why would you want that in your neighborhood? To prove how open-minded you are?

wyager 13y ago

> plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America) Have you ever lived in any continental European country? As someone who has spent about half their life in northern and western Europe and the other half in America, I can tell you with 100% confidence that Europeans are, in general, more xenophobic and racist than Americans.

afterburner 13y ago
They are, but because they are mostly "comfortable" in their homogenous societies, they don't express as much fear through action as in the US. As the minority gets bigger, fear and negative action rises. I think in the US this was compounded by a lingering fear of a literal slave revolt. In other words, it's easier to be racist but nice anyways if you don't fear the tiny minority.
maxerickson 13y ago
The more interesting comparison might be between perception and reality within the U.S. I would speculate that upper middle class people (who tend to have louder voices) have more egalitarian views than whatever median.
richardjordan 13y ago
Having grown up in the UK, lived in many countries around the world, and now been in the US for 15 years I dispute that. To fight anecdote with anecdote... Moving from the UK to the US I was shocked by the pernicious levels of institutionalized racism and the undercurrent of subtle racism. It's everywhere. There's certainly more of a veneer of tolerance here, which covers up a deep seated pathological racism, which is missing in parts of Europe, so when you experience racism in Europe it's more blatant and obvious. What you do get a lot in Europe is a lot of discomfort with the muslim minorities - whether white, or of color - which is often falsely equated with racism (because racists are often also Islamophobic too). However it's a mistake to conflate the two. With the religious issues it's mostly a stance on the totalitarian nature of the religion and the cultural practices that adherents look to bring, which are often incompatible with accepted norms and values in those countries (particularly regarding the treatment of women).

greendata 13y ago

There is a huge issue with racism in the US but you're wrong to think it's a US problem or that it's worse in the US on average. Spend a few months in Europe, especially the east and south, and you'll quickly change your mind. Also, checkout Japan and China. Those places are in their own way at least as racist as the US is today. Racism is a universal human problem. Humans naturally divide things into different groups and are almost "programmed" to make snap statistically unsound judgements based on a few data points which may or may not be correct. Humans are also "programmed" to want to eat sugar till they drop. These are issues where we can use our higher minds and education to alleviate if not solve.

jfc 13y ago
>>Racism is a universal human problem. Totally agree with this. Human beings often denigrate other people, based on relatively minor differences, with a view to elevating themselves. It is utterly childish, and yet people persist in doing it frequently.

ggchappell 13y ago

> racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America) A number of replies on this, but some have, I think, understated the issue. In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. If racism is not seen to be a problem elsewhere, then it's largely because of ethnic homogeneity, not lack of racism. EDIT: It looks like I'm being misinterpreted here. Obviously, there is racism in the U.S. It is a huge problem. We all know this. But the reason it might seem to be a larger problem than elsewhere is because of our unusually ethnically diverse population, not because of unusually high levels of racism. Also things like our incarceration rate -- the highest in the world, by far. To a large extent, the political boundaries of the world are drawn along ethnic lines. Where this doesn't happen: former colonies in Africa, much of Eastern Europe after the world wars, etc., etc., you often get people killing each other. Look at the Rwandan genocide, or the mess that Yugoslavia turned into when it stopped being just Yugoslavia, or the decades of troubles between India and Pakistan, or any number of other examples, to see the result. And then note that these kinds of things are not happening in the U.S. -- not to that extent, anyway.

interpares 13y ago
>In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. Even given the institutional racism evident in things like incarceration rates and educational outcomes?
- ggchappell 13y ago
  Yes. To clarify, I'm not saying that racism is not a problem in the U.S. Certainly it is. If other countries don't have huge number of minorities in prison, then it is because (1) they don't have huge numbers of minorities, or (2) they don't have a lot of people in prison. But in the U.S. we have both the world's highest incarceration rate and an unusually ethnically diverse population. Add to that the racism that everyone has, and we get the kind of problems you mention.
richardjordan 13y ago
How can anyone possibly believe this? Not just attacking you but genuinely I find this incomprehensible. America is a deeply racist society. It's built on the genocide of the Native Americans who are still largely kept in poverty in virtual prison camps we insultingly call reservations, by racist policies. The legacy of racism against African Americans is still deep and real - have you any experience as a black person in the Southern states? If so then I'll respect your opinion on that topic, but as a White person who came to the US from a different country, and then lived in Texas for a few years, the levels of racism are disgraceful. The entire hispanic ag-business-driven immigration problem hinges on institutionalized racism. Then we don't even touch on disparities like over-concentration of poverty in minority communities, incarceration rates, under-representation in positions of power and seniority etc.

theorique 13y ago

The idea that people as a whole change, improve, and become less racist, while romantically appealing, couldn't be further from the truth. Well, some things improve. We don't have slavery or Jim Crow laws any more.