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Is the shared economy racist?
- learc83 13y agoThis isn't limited to white hosts either. My brother stayed with a black couple during an internship in DC last summer (he's white). They told him that after several bad experiences they no longer host black guests.
- moocowduckquack 13y agoWas the place run by Uncle Ruckus?
- theorique 13y agoThere's no racism like the racism of respectable, middle-class blacks against the "thug class" of lower-class blacks. Chris Rock had a routine about it which I will not repeat.
- omonra 13y agoWait, how can feelings of member of same ethnic group towards each other be classified as racism?
- theorique 13y agoSome people refer to it as "internalized racism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_racism It's a bit different from having prejudice against a "different" group, but related.
- cup 13y agoI'm not racist, I've got Black friends but. ...
- jfc 13y agoWhat do you suppose they hoped to convey to your brother with that statement? It's quite possible that their experience with black guests was negative. But by telling your brother of those negative experiences (which he had no need to know), weren't they, at least in some sense, effectively differentiating themselves from another, negative category of blacks?
- learc83 13y ago> which he had no need to know They told him this after he was there for a while and got to know them, and he said it came up in normal conversation. I suppose they could have been trying to differentiate themselves, or, they could have been attempting to bond with him over their (perceived on my brother's part) mutual dislike of lower class black people. But given the situation, I think it's more likely that they had no ulterior motive. They had a few bad experiences with black guests, and decided to use race as a heuristic for determining suitability as a guest. This is how nearly all racism starts, it's unfair and we should strive to eliminate it, but people are always going to make generalizations.
- 2drew3 13y agoI'm not saying the shared economy is racist by design. Nor am I accusing mentioned companies as being racist. But as companies build trust through profiles and links to social networks, they should be wary of the unintended consequence.
- volume 13y agosince you have the time to clarify, perhaps you should update the post's title. :)
- 2drew3 13y agoPerhaps you're right. Still, the title isn't accusing either company as racist. AirBnB created artificial trust between strangers to allow them to share homes. That's a HUGE accomplishment. On one hand, AirBnB has to keep investing dollars (marketing/dev/support) at their core user group - perhaps the "Student Universe" segment or the "Business traveler" segment. As they continue to grow, plan for an IPO, take market share from hotels... they need to think about these unintended consequence and work harder towards creating a "open, trusted, diverse community."
- badman_ting 13y agoOK, but as dublinben points out, one must consider the businesses these services are meant to replace. He mentions taxicabs which are notoriously racist, do you suppose Bed and Breakfast owners might have different answers about vacancy depending on who asks? If the goal is to observe racism as it functions in our society, cool. If the goal is guilt-driven self-flagellation about the distinction between startups' marketing copy and the reality of the situation, less cool.
- jiggy2011 13y agoI haven't used either of these services, but perhaps it is possible that these apps provide more information about the customer in advance than a traditional B&B or taxi driver would have access to. You can't necessarily tell somebody's race over the phone.
- dublinben 13y agoThis is pretty clearly an example of individual people being racist, not companies. Traditional taxi drivers are notoriously racist, I'm not surprised their app-summoned alternatives are any different.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- 2drew3 13y agoGood point. But does it make it easier for racism to happen? If Marriott/Priceline (blindly accepts reservation) is replaced by AirBnB (Chesky's vision), will travel become harder for African Americans?
- thenmar 13y agoDid you read the article? That's exactly what the author says. It's a short article, you can probably read it in 2 or 3 minutes...
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y agoWhenever there's an article about racism or sexism it's very important to jump in and start posting your opinions without reading any more than the headline.
- hipsterelitist 13y agoI can say I've had similar experiences all across California with AirBnB.
- omonra 13y agoThat was probably just a case of hipsterphobia.
- k-mcgrady 13y agoVery interesting however they could have easily provided some more conclusive proof. The author should have tried booking one of the places that turned Brandon down on the same dates. If he had been offered the place it would haave been more clear racism was in play. I'm not denying racism was in play (although the UberX example seems quite silly - personally I'd be happy to get a driver that didn't talk to me and the one time I've used Uber the driver wasn't very talkative) but I'd like to see the author try my suggestion and follow up the post.
- SheepSlapper 13y agoI kept waiting for him to get on the apps and try to book the same places himself, and when it didn't happen I was kind of disappointed. It's like you say, if he got approved then there was definitely some racism at play. If not, then it was just bad timing. But since he didn't try it, we can only speculate.
- makaveli8 13y agoThat's a great idea - that would have been damning evidence.
- 2drew3 13y agoI should have done this. But I didn't have this experience to prove a point. Truthfully, I was mostly embarrassed that my suggestion wasn't working and immediately kicked into "find my friend an alternate place" mode. This entire post is not proof and completely anecdotal. I'm the first to admit that. But I hope this audience of entrepreneurs will think about issues like this.
- k-mcgrady 13y agoTotally understand and I'm glad you wrote it. I'd like to see someone take on the challenge and come back with some proof. It seems from your account that Brandon had just set up a new AirBnb account - is it possible he was rejected because he had no history?
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- rayiner 13y agoThere's a really simple explanatory mechanism, which is that even if an AirBnB host is bound by the same anti-discrimination provisions of the Civil Rights Act as a Hyatt, which is probably true, holding individual service providers accountable at that level is basically impossible. And to the extent that the "sharing economy" involves more individuals rather than businesses that can be sued, you will see more discrimination. This issue also strikes to the heart of some of the libertarian ethos around the sharing economy generally and Uber/AirBnB in particular. People are really racist.[1] Just getting the racism to the levels experienced by Andrew's friend experienced involved a century of the federal government beating the states over the head with troops, court orders, etc. The elimination of overt racial discrimination in private businesses is actually a wonderful example of concerted government action addressing a problem that according to free market theories shouldn't even have existed in the first place. [1] I think Americans are much less racist than almost anyone else. I'm Bengali by ethnicity, and my observation is that people on the subcontinent are racist enough to make a south Georgia redneck blush. But even then sometimes I look around at maps like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Racial_Divide_Detroit_MI.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Racial_Di... (race map of Detroit with black areas in blue and white areas in red), and think we'd still have legal segregation if the courts hadn't forced it down peoples' throats.
- steven2012 13y agoImpossible? That's nonsense. They could ask users for a standard race descriptor that is never shared with the hosts, and if the hosts seem to predominantly reject certain races of people, the marketplace like AirBnB could kick them out. It's actually pretty simple. It all depends on how eager the marketplaces are to solve this particular problem.
- jaredsohn 13y agoA nice aspect of this is that it could work better than the system being replaced (tracking gets automated and centralized.)
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- joesmo 13y agoI don't think any of this is specific to AirBnb or Uber. What is described here is just plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America), especially in regards towards black people. The black friend in the story knew this and wasn't surprised. It's only surprising to people who think this is something of the past, as if somehow people have improved and this shouldn't exist. The idea that people as a whole change, improve, and become less racist, while romantically appealing, couldn't be further from the truth.
- rayiner 13y agoThe difference is that you can sue Hyatt if you are discriminated against, which keeps people in line. It's very difficult to sue AirBnB for the actions of a host.
- spikels 13y agoYou could sue the host. But that violates the rule that you only sue people with money. There are not many but this is one disadvantage of wealth.
- rayiner 13y agoIt doesn't matter whether the host is rich or not. One of the key ways of proving a discrimination claim is to show a pattern of action, which calls into doubt the host's pretextual reasons for denying service. Much harder to do that with an individual than a business.
- wtvanhest 13y agoThis is a tangent to your point, but if I remember correctly you are an attorney so I replied to you thinking you may no more about this, but even if it is racist, I doubt it is illegal. The fair housing act definitely doesn't protect short term renters staying in someone's home. "The Fair Housing Act applies to landlords renting or leasing space in their primary residence only if the residence contains living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by three or more other families living independently of each other, such as an owner-occupied rooming house."
- interpares 13y agoSo unfortunate, and also a reflection of the wider national context. Maybe time to add a few more to this list of "21 Things Black People Can't Do in America": http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/21-things-you-cant-do-while-black http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/21-things-you-cant...
- afterburner 13y agoThat is a depressing set of links.
- wyager 13y agoJesus, that article is so full of shit. It's literally a list of misleading headlines. Equivalent: "21 things white people can't do in Germany: Be the nation's leader while having a tootbrush mustache"
- theorique 13y ago"21 things white people can't do in Germany: Be the nation's leader while having a tootbrush mustache" ... can't do any more.
- interpares 13y agoJust curious if you actually read any of the stories included and if you found any of them surprising or notable.
- interpares 13y agoQuite right. Historical baggage and preconceptions make some things rather difficult in certain countries if you look a certain way. In your example, shaving would do the trick. In the well-documented and numerous examples of blacks being routinely harassed, arrested or killed for unfounded suspicions...?
- jack-r-abbit 13y agoPerhaps the "literally a list of misleading headlines" comment is because if one had the time and thought it would actually be considered, one could probably come up with misleading headlines and links to stories of white people suffering injustice for random things. Like "Can't divorce an ex Pro Football player [link to story about OJ Simpson killing Nicole]" Or "Can't drive truck down street [Link to story about Reginald Denny] I know those are older stories but those are the ones that come to mind with little research.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- cllns 13y agoWhite supremacy is an oppressive institution that reaches throughout all of society. Unless it is actively fought against, it will prevail.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- wyager 13y ago>White Supremacy is an oppressive institution that reaches throughout all of society. Unless it is actively fought against, it will prevail. Or, you know, we could just educate people and get rid of racism in a way that doesn't swap one bad thing for another (like racist policies intended to favor non-whites, which I assume you're referring to).
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- cllns 13y agoI'm referring to white supremacy (racism) as a societal institution, not merely the actions and beliefs of individuals. I wouldn't call policies which lessen the power of the white supremacy 'racist'. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people; it’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another. Access is another. Ignorance is another. Apathy is another. And so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything. - Scott Woods (http://scottwoodsmakeslists.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/5-things-no-one-is-actually-saying-about-ani-difranco-or-plantations/ http://scottwoodsmakeslists.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/5-thing...)
- greendata 13y agoThis is so depressing and even though sample size is small it rings 100% true. I think it's just a symptom of an inherently racist and unfair world and is not Uber or Airbnb's fault. The same thing happens with names at the resume level and on and on. That said I think there's a new market here. If the average Airbnb listing is rejecting applicants of color maybe there could be a special "diversity friendly" designation on Airbnb or other sites. Perhaps users could add some flair, something similar to the LGBT pride flag that some business add to their windows, to their profiles to signify they sincerely welcome all applicants. Hopefully this doesn't sound too ignorant. If mass rejection of specific groups is occurring, there's some money to be made here by sending out the right signals. Just think of the profit made by some gay/lesbian bars in the 1970s and 80s.
- jiggy2011 13y agoThe question is, how do you enforce this? What is to stop a host from displaying the "diverse friendly" flare for promotion purposes and then just rejecting minorities anyway. The only method I can think of would be to monitor when hosts reject minority guests but then there's a risk that you punish hosts who reject a minority guest for some unrelated reason.
- greendata 13y agoI don't think you'd have to monitor it any more than you would monitor a business that puts up the rainbow flag on their window. I think the key here is to make it voluntary and not push it on people or make it a top-down standard. Its absence should not imply racism. Perhaps the flair could located on another site where users of the shared economy list themselves as "diversity friendly". If you see a listing with the diversity "flair" and one of the reviewers is a person of color, you know that place is worth applying to as a person of color.
- jiggy2011 13y agoThat would depend on what it was interpreted to mean by users. I can easily see AirBnB hosts being under pressure to display the flair for fear of being assumed racist otherwise and being boycotted by even white people who don't want to endorse racism. It might also make it easier for a person who feels discriminated against to sue (if they don't display when others are). After all , you don't tend to see "blacks welcome" signs displayed at hotels, because that is the assumed default.
- cwaniak 13y agoThis is so depressing to make AirBnb or Uber responsible for the image of Black people that the Black people worked so long and hard to achieve and maintain.
- interpares 13y agoRight, because blacks are the ones responsible for how they're portrayed in the media.
- cwaniak 13y agoRight, because if media portrayed Asians as living in slums, not working and dealing drugs, the public would just buy it in a second.
- interpares 13y agoNo not in a second, but certainly over time and with the help of confirmation bias. Absolutely.
- cwaniak 13y agoAnd if the media portrayed Africa as rich, prosperous, democratic Continent and Asia as a corrupted war zone with 30yrs + longevity rates, we would believe it too, right?
- interpares 13y agoI'm not sure what your point is, other than trolling. I'll leave you to it.
- cwaniak 13y agoHow convenient...
- tw268 13y ago
- Crake 13y agoThis would have been far more convincing if he tried to book the same dates as his friend and was accepted after they said they didn't have anything available on that date. As it is, it's just one of many possible reasons his friend had trouble finding a reservation.
- altero 13y agoSo what? Asians and whites are discriminated by government agencies, universities and large corporations. Last time HR manager screamed at me because I insisted my race is 'slavic' not 'white'.
- beat 13y agoThis reminds me of a sad old joke. In the south, whites don't mind if blacks are around, so long as they aren't uppity. In the north, whites don't mind if blacks are uppity, as long as they're not around. Having spent time among both southern rednecks and northern intellectuals, it rings painfully true.
- brudgers 13y agoThese are businesses built to operate outside established regulations and inevitablely have features of grey and black markets. In some ways this is like complaining about racism among chop shops or the guy selling electronics that fell off the back of a truck. The lack of full accountability is what makes it possible to provide a deal.
- teddyh 13y agoBlack Utopia Fantasy Story: http://sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4900 http://sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4900
- viggity 13y agoi've never used abnb, how would the host know that brandon was black? do renters have avatars/profile pics?
- notastartup 13y agoThis is sickening, but more so because it shows you that African Americans still receive downright discrimination in the United States. If anything, these sharing apps reveal that crowd managed sharing apps cast spotlight on the problem. To combat this, they would need to enforce a strict rule that highlights that you cannot refuse someone based on their color, gender, orientation. Of course this only works in an ideal world.
- runarberg 13y agoFrom my experience YES! Before I start, I'd like to note that I am a young white, non-handicapped male. Most of my participation in the shared economy comes from hitchhiking, and I've done a lot of it. Only once has a car stopped that had a black passenger in it. I don't think that black people are racist towards white hitchhikers, but I think there is a deep barrier of trust at issue. Black people do experience racism at so many levels of society, that when it comes to shearing excess resource with some white opportunists.. HELL NO!, I wouldn't do it. I'm not saying that black drivers are racist towards white hitchhikers. I'm trying to demonstrate that there is a huge racial gap in our societal battery. White people are privilege enough to be able to trust a fellow citizen. Normally, experience tells black people not to. ps. The same can be said about women, handicapped, and the homeless. But definitely the case of black discrimination is one of the most severe there. pps. The pattern I described seems to brake with anarchist and charity groups. I've done food-not-bombs, homes-not-jails, occupy, and there blacks, whites, women, etc. participate together in a shared ecosystem. I wonder why?
- richardjordan 13y agoI think there's an alternative explanation to your anecdotal suggestion black drivers don't pick up white hitch-hikers. Picking up hitch-hikers is inherently risky. Given that in any altercation or conflict the establishment and authorities will pretty much always view the black participant with suspicion and the white participant with favor, as experienced on a regular basis in day-to-day life by said driver, I think caution in not putting themselves in such a situation is warranted.
- runarberg 13y agoI second that
- jack-r-abbit 13y agoIt is kind of interesting to hear it explained in that way. Because it also sounds like a stereotype. Black driver has experienced, day-to-day, that white people have mistreated him and no longer trusts them and thus will not put himself into that situation by picking up white hitch-hikers. My step mother was a bit racist. It sickened me. But my dad would justify by explaining that she grew up in a bad area and she was often mistreated by her black peers. It still made no sense to me as a young teen. But that is almost exactly what you describe in the black driver not picking up white hitch-hikers. How many experiences like that does one need to have to make it socially acceptable to do that?
- omonra 13y agoI think the headline is a bit misleading. Racist would mean that hosts don't want to rent their apartment to people of other races (ie whites only wanting to rent to other whites). Here it seems that hosts are making a judgement call about the renter and using race as a parameter. They appear to have no problem renting to Asians or Indians, just have an issue with one particular ethnicity. Wouldn't a more accurate headline be - 'Airbnb hosts don't want to rent to black customers' (even if it's highly anecdotal)?
- vishaldpatel 13y agoRacial discrimination is when someone is discriminated on the basis of their race. It doesn't matter how friendly the perpetrator is to people of other races.
- omonra 13y agoRight - but you appreciate the difference between someone a) disliking all races different from one's own b) using one's life experience to form opinions about people and grouping them by - age / race / occupation / ethnicity / etc. I think that using same word is wrong - as they are completely different phenomena.
- true_religion 13y agoDisliking all races different from your own is xenophobic. There is a different word for it. :)
- lhc- 13y agoI dont think its really that different of a phenomenon. Item a) is a lot extrapolating item b) to everyone who doesn't share your race. Also, its completely possible to be racist against members of your own race, which still qualifies as racist behavior. Basically, the general definition of racism is more about prejudice against one or more races, rather than about uplifting one specific race above everything else.
- mikeklaas 13y ago
- bsgreenb 13y agoIf anything, shouldn't apps that involve ratings and profiles reduce racism, because they allow you to judge the person by their behavior as opposed to just their appearance? Compare Lyft to taxis, for example. In the case of taxis the driver only sees appearance-based characteristics when they choose whether to pick someone up. In the case of Lyft the user has a long history of ratings which indicate whether they're a good person to drive around.
- here 13y agoThis strikes me as naturally similar to many human marketplaces, such as craigslist roommates, hiring practices, where to go grab a drink -- which have long been reflective of similar biases. In my anecdotal experience, the scales on airbnb/couchsurf/craigslist roommates/similar are even further tipped in a sexist? manner, dramatically favoring females. There is little surprising or special about the sharing economy resonating these patterns. However, It does provide an excellent venue for study and potentially creative mitigation.
- Aloisius 13y agoDoesn't the digital sharing economy actually make bigotry incredibly easy to detect and verify? All you have to do is try booking the same place on a different dates (assuming you have an account in good standing/positive reviews/etc). If they keep rejecting you, then not only are you sure you have a bigot on your hand, you have a paper trail with enough proof to go after them with a lawyer. This is something that isn't even possible in other environments (like say, cabs that just conveniently don't see you standing there hailing them). If anything, the digital sharing economy can be a huge help to fighting bigotry.
- trysomething 13y agoWhat we are seeing here brings to light an inconvenient truth: you simply cannot legislate away obnoxious social behavior. As long as I remember, Craigslist has prohibited discriminatory advertising to ensure listings comply with the fair housing act. Does this really stop a prejudiced landlord? When it gets down to the level of individuals dealing consensually with individuals, there isn't much that the state can do (unless it's a tyrannical state). Black comedians have always joked about being passed over by cabs, well before Uber, Lyft etc. In the long run, I think these services actually improve things .. On the curb, all a racist cab driver sees is how someone looks .. but now everyone can develop a reputation that goes well beyond appearances. In addition, by taking care of payment, prejudiced drivers don't have to worry that some groups are less likely to pay at the end of the ride. Eventually, they will realize that the color of one's skin is a terrible predictor of character and (hopefully) become less racist. So, the "sharing economy" is not itself racist, but due to its peer to peer nature it exposes the lingering prejudices in our Society. But, since prejudice requires a lack of reason or evidence, the sharing economy also provides a way forward. Through AirBnB, for example, we can not only see what someone looks like, but we get information about the content of their character. Granted, it's not perfect (nothing ever will be), but it's a start.
- gojomo 13y agoI can believe racism was a factor. However, there's also a bias against new guests (with no history). And, there seems to have been a big increase in the percentage of marginal listings that are not-really-available. (Perhaps, far more people are casually listing places without real intent to rent or diligence in checking requests and updating calendar availability. Or perhaps with higher usage, those are the only kinds of listings that are left in the last few days.) My experience: the first few times I used AirBnb, even as a last-minute booking, availability was accurate, most hosts got back to me right away, booking was quick and easy. The last few times I've used AirBnb, in New York, Berlin, and Portland, I've had a positive feedback history and there are more listings showing as available than ever. But, many hosts take over a day to respond if at all, and often then tell me the spot isn't available. I've had to send ~10+ inquiries, instead of ~2, to achieve one booking. So a few 'sorrys' in a row, on a booking a few days in advance, doesn't seem that suspicious. Because the host gets to perform a 'social/internet x-ray' on a prospective guest, you always wonder if the real reason for the 'sorry' is that you're just not to their liking: by race, gender, age, coolness, politics, career, whatever. You never know for sure. That's both a strength and weakness of the AirBnb system: people can meet and host others they're most comfortable or interested in... or express longstanding and unfair prejudicies.
- facepalm 13y agoI'm not sure how these services operate, but I wonder if a difference to traditional hotels is that they get applications, rather than reservations on a first come, first served basis? If AirBnB landlords receive applications, maybe they just wait for an attractive one (ie a single male landlord could prefer to rent to attractive women). I'm not trying to defend racism, just wondering how to alleviate the problem. I suppose traditional hotels don't get to look at a profile of the people who book with them. At most they could infer something from their name.
- tommorris 13y agoNo, at the hotels, you have to wait until you attempt to check in before they discriminate against you. http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publish/2/article_13302.php http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publish/2/article_13302.php http://www.queerty.com/gay-couple-told-theres-no-room-at-the-inn-at-london-hotel-20130226/ http://www.queerty.com/gay-couple-told-theres-no-room-at-the... http://www.advocate.com/news/2007/03/30/gay-couple-turned-away-sc-hotel http://www.advocate.com/news/2007/03/30/gay-couple-turned-aw...