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While I do not always hold Google (et. al.) blameless, sometimes I wonder why companies keep doing business in France given their bureaucracy and knee jerk poli

While I do not always hold Google (et. al.) blameless, sometimes I wonder why companies keep doing business in France given their bureaucracy and knee jerk policies designed to make everything "French" even when it does not make sense. http://www.frenchtoday.com/blog/learn-some-french-computer-terms http://www.frenchtoday.com/blog/learn-some-french-computer-t...

GuiA 13y ago
That article you posted is silly. Regarding the first paragraph: well of course these are going to be literally translated; why would you not translate words like "search engine" or "browser"? Do you want the French to use the actual words "search engine"? Regarding the second paragraph: actually, most of the words one would put in that category have translations: web (toile), driver (pilote). "wifi" makes sense as it is (as it was coined by an international alliance); "modem" still makes sense in French (modulateur-démodulateur). Regarding the last paragraph, again, most of these make sense. "Fonts" existed way before computers and thus have a valid French word; "download" was appropriately replaced by "télécharger", from "télé" (distance) and "charger" (load). Again, why would French people use the actual word "download"? The former allows one to guess its meaning even if they have no clue what the concept of downloading is. There are a couple silly things ("courriel" being one of the few valid complaints, and even then the same argument as for "télécharger" still holds), but overall it's really not crazy that a language would translate words so that they make more sense.
- ars 13y ago
  It's silly because the words are jargon, and are not supposed to used literally. They might have been coined from some original meaning, but they are just sounds now, and divorced from their origin. I suppose in france they also translate "main" and "void" in C programs?
  - laumars 13y ago
    > It's silly because the words are jargon, and are not supposed to used literally. They might have been coined from some original meaning, but they are just sounds now, and divorced from their origin. "jargon" just means the words aren't easy for common folk to understand. So the logical conclusion would be that jargon should be translated. Personally I don't see why "search engine" or "browser" is any different to "fire engine" or "car". They're all just nouns (in fact "fire engine" even varies amongst English speakers as I believe Americans call it "fire truck"). > I suppose in france they also translate "main" and "void" in C programs? That's another language in itself; albeit a computer based one with English-language origins. You don't see people taking about int64 in common conversation any more than you see English people using French nouns to describe English objects.
    - ars 13y ago
      > "jargon" just means the words aren't easy for common folk to understand. So the logical conclusion would be that jargon should be translated. Jargon is a mental shorthand. Instead of explaining the concept you put it in a "box". Then your mind only has to remember the single concept instead of the whole set of sub-concepts that make up the word. Since a person has a limited number of things you can hold onto at once, by essentially "compressing" concepts you can increase the power of thought. So the logical conclusion is that jargon should not be translated. It should be left as is. A search engine is not an engine that searches. It's a single "thing".
      - GuiA 13y ago
        Except that it's easier to remember a concept if the name for it matches what it is. If I explain to my French grandpa what a search engine is, and tell him it's called a "moteur de recherche", it will all make sense and he will remember both the name and what it is. On the other hand, if I explain to him what a search engine is, and then tell him it's literally called a "search engine", that's just unnecessary confusion.
        ars 13y ago
        I don't agree. Would you find it easier to remember "pasta" by thinking that it's a "salty mass of food"? Or is an automobile a "self propelled moving machine"? Are you going to start calling the Mississippi "big river"? Words have an origin in other languages, certainly. But it serves no purpose to translate that origin as is. Instead you accept the sound of the word and use it. And presumably hipster is "person who wears clothing low on the hips". Just because it's technology doesn't except it from the normal rules of words. All new words start from a meaning. But the meaning is interesting historically, it's not used for everyday speech. If you want to make the word French you don't translate it literally - it's not actually a motor. Call it a "research-majigy" or something like that.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    "Search engine" is not jargon. An English speaker from a century ago would understand what it meant - although they wouldn't know from what you were building the engine, or what it was meant to search. Search engine? http://www.etoday.ru/assets_c/2009/11/sobaka2-thumb-600x462-66874.jpg http://www.etoday.ru/assets_c/2009/11/sobaka2-thumb-600x462-...
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Yep there is a civil service bureaucracy that comes up with new approved "french" words for example disque dur for a hard disk or DASD if your an IBM type. A few years ago I had the job of installing Wordstar 2000 for our bi/tri ligual typing pool and had to refer to a french technical dictionary a lot :-)
    - mitosis 13y ago
      News flash: different languages use different words!
      - walshemj 13y ago
        News flash languages are mutable and borrow words from other languages all the time - not even UKIP complain about french or german loan words e.g. Café schadenfreude and so on. It seem that only France seems to feel the need to have a bureaucracy to try (in a king canute like way) to hold back the tides.
        mitosis 13y ago
        Only France, hm? Let me google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=language+academies&l=1 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=language+academies&l=1 Just because English borrows words more easily than most other languages ("We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -- James Nicoll) and has no central language regulating authority, doesn't mean all languages ought to work the same way. Complaining that the French say "disque dur" instead of "hard disk" is just silly, because "disque dur" means "hard disk" in French. It's a literal translation. There's no reason to use an English term when there's a perfectly good French one available! Why don't you use a German loanword and call it a Festplattenlaufwerk in English?
  - kalleboo 13y ago
    > I suppose in france they also translate "main" and "void" in C programs? Visual Basic was translated (keywords and all) to many european languages. Excel formulas still have translations.
laumars 13y ago
Every country does that to some degree, even the Americans. One thing that always niggles me is when I see an icon for the American flag for English in language options on web sites. Given the number of countries which have English as one of the primary languages (just off the top of my head: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India, South Africa and, of course, the UK) it seems slightly misplaced for an American developer to put an American flag for English language options. Just as you wouldn't want a Mexican developer use a Mexican icon for Spanish language options. A lot of the examples in the article you linked to makes complete sense too. In most of those cases the nouns are what's been translated and the proper nouns have been largely left in English; as far as I know, that's how languages normally work. That said, I don't see the point to the governments alternative word for e-mail.
- freehunter 13y ago
  If the software/web page is meant to be consumed primarily in the US when used in English, would it make sense to put an Indian flag there?
  - lmm 13y ago
    The fact that you've got a language selection at all implies that it's an international site. If it's a store or some such it would be a very unusual American website that shipped abroad but not to Canada. (I'm not sure what "meant to be consumed primarily in the US" even means; I don't have national borders in mind when writing. For most sites it makes very little difference which country a visitor happens to be from.)
    - freehunter 13y ago
      The US and Canada have the primary language of English. But Canada also has French, and certain sections of the US have Spanish as a predominant language. Just one example: If I have a US company that also ships to Canada, it makes sense to have the US flag for English and the French (or Canadian?) flag for French Canadian. It also makes sense to have the Mexican flag for the Spanish option, because most of my Spanish speaking customers are likely to hail from Mexico, with a small number from other Central American countries. What would not make sense is to have a UK flag for American customers, a Spanish flag for Mexican customers, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo flag for French, just to appease people who will never buy from my site. You might not have national borders in mind, but it pays to know what language your customers speak as well as what countries they are from.
username42 13y ago
CNIL is probably the single office in French bureaucracy that understand internet. The problem is that it is alone and has no support from government and has very reduced means of action.
pbhjpbhj 13y ago
Let me quote from the article: > « The CNIL explanation of its imposition of the fine says that “the company does not sufficiently inform its users about the conditions and purposes of processing data” and that “it does not set retention periods for all data process” and that “it allows, without any legal basis, the combination of all the data it collects about users across all of its services”. » // This sounds like a complaint that you might find on HN any day of the week - unwarranted use of personal information by Google. I don't see how the OP is especially French not when you take in to account, as is mentioned, that several other EU states have similar objections standing. The French are almost democratic in their fascination with the rights of the individual, no? Yes, if you think responsible curacy of your users personal information is beyond the pale then don't deal with countries that attempt to protect their citizens/subjects from such abuses [by private companies at least!].
pcrh 13y ago
While it is true that L'académie française sometimes comes out with peculiar recommendations, this particular blog does a poor job of pointing them out. In particular, the author does not appear to have a very good grasp of colloquial French, or the history of some terms used in the software and computer fields. For example: 1) courriel is not a contraction of courrier and email, but of courrier électronique (i.e. electronic mail). 2) The verb planter in the context of a computer crash does not derive directly from "to plant", but from a colloquial term meaning to make a mistake (itself possibly derived from some sense of becoming like a vegetable/plant).
jmnicolas 13y ago
Because Frenchies like to be French and would like to remain different in a world where everything is "Holliwoodized". OK the real reason is they suck at learning English so they need to translate everything ;-) Being French I'd appreciate if HN remained free of the usual French bashing that is common on Anglo-saxon forums. I don't understand, people still react like we were a country that matters ...
- kalleboo 13y ago
  > OK the real reason is they suck at learning English so they need to translate everything ;-) Not really, Swedes are #1 in the world at English as a second language and aren't afraid to flaunt it, but we also translate most technical terms. It's just way easier to use in a conversation.
wozniacki 13y ago
France is a nation of silly customs and infuriatingly odd notions of fairness and justice. Starting January 1, Uber drivers in France will have to wait 15 minutes between receiving a reservation and actually picking up the customer. The rule, reported by French newspaper Libération, is meant to "better distinguish the activity of these vehicles from that of taxis," as only taxis have the right to drive around looking for customers, instead of taking reservations. More simply, it's designed to protect the legal monopoly of taxis by making services like Uber a lot slower and a lot less convenient. [1] Thankfully the decree was struck down. France’s Conseil d’État suspended the controversial decree against urban transportation services like Uber and LeCab. As a reminder, since January 1, drivers have had to wait 15 minutes between the time a customer hails them and they let them in the car. But it created a competitive imbalance, that’s why the rule was just suspended — TechCrunch has confirmed with multiple services. The French authority will now have to state whether this law should be completely repealed. In France, the cab industry is very regulated, and taxi licenses are hard to obtain. Over the past few years, the French government has been very understanding with cab drivers as they have the ability to block airports and city centers. Many cab drivers started to consider LeCab, Chauffeur-privé, SnapCar, Allocab, Uber and countless of others as direct competitors — they wanted something from the government.[2] [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/french-law-makes-uber-less-convenient-2013-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/french-law-makes-uber-less-co... [2] http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/council-of-state-suspends-15-minute-law-against-uber-lecab-and-others-in-france/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/council-of-state-suspends-1...
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  OK, what does this have to do with abuse of personal information though as highlighted in the OP?
- kalleboo 13y ago
  Said as if the Taxi lobbies in US cities aren't trying to do the same thing... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/technology/app-maker-uber-hits-regulatory-snarl.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/technology/app-maker-uber-... And one [rule] says limousines may not accept a request for a ride that is made less than 30 minutes in advance, which would impede Uber’s primary business model of connecting luxury car drivers with passengers immediately
RivieraKid 13y ago
Because staying is profitable.

GuiA 13y ago

That article you posted is silly. Regarding the first paragraph: well of course these are going to be literally translated; why would you not translate words like "search engine" or "browser"? Do you want the French to use the actual words "search engine"? Regarding the second paragraph: actually, most of the words one would put in that category have translations: web (toile), driver (pilote). "wifi" makes sense as it is (as it was coined by an international alliance); "modem" still makes sense in French (modulateur-démodulateur). Regarding the last paragraph, again, most of these make sense. "Fonts" existed way before computers and thus have a valid French word; "download" was appropriately replaced by "télécharger", from "télé" (distance) and "charger" (load). Again, why would French people use the actual word "download"? The former allows one to guess its meaning even if they have no clue what the concept of downloading is. There are a couple silly things ("courriel" being one of the few valid complaints, and even then the same argument as for "télécharger" still holds), but overall it's really not crazy that a language would translate words so that they make more sense.

ars 13y ago
It's silly because the words are jargon, and are not supposed to used literally. They might have been coined from some original meaning, but they are just sounds now, and divorced from their origin. I suppose in france they also translate "main" and "void" in C programs?
- laumars 13y ago
  > It's silly because the words are jargon, and are not supposed to used literally. They might have been coined from some original meaning, but they are just sounds now, and divorced from their origin. "jargon" just means the words aren't easy for common folk to understand. So the logical conclusion would be that jargon should be translated. Personally I don't see why "search engine" or "browser" is any different to "fire engine" or "car". They're all just nouns (in fact "fire engine" even varies amongst English speakers as I believe Americans call it "fire truck"). > I suppose in france they also translate "main" and "void" in C programs? That's another language in itself; albeit a computer based one with English-language origins. You don't see people taking about int64 in common conversation any more than you see English people using French nouns to describe English objects.
  - ars 13y ago
    > "jargon" just means the words aren't easy for common folk to understand. So the logical conclusion would be that jargon should be translated. Jargon is a mental shorthand. Instead of explaining the concept you put it in a "box". Then your mind only has to remember the single concept instead of the whole set of sub-concepts that make up the word. Since a person has a limited number of things you can hold onto at once, by essentially "compressing" concepts you can increase the power of thought. So the logical conclusion is that jargon should not be translated. It should be left as is. A search engine is not an engine that searches. It's a single "thing".
    - GuiA 13y ago
      Except that it's easier to remember a concept if the name for it matches what it is. If I explain to my French grandpa what a search engine is, and tell him it's called a "moteur de recherche", it will all make sense and he will remember both the name and what it is. On the other hand, if I explain to him what a search engine is, and then tell him it's literally called a "search engine", that's just unnecessary confusion.
      - ars 13y ago
        I don't agree. Would you find it easier to remember "pasta" by thinking that it's a "salty mass of food"? Or is an automobile a "self propelled moving machine"? Are you going to start calling the Mississippi "big river"? Words have an origin in other languages, certainly. But it serves no purpose to translate that origin as is. Instead you accept the sound of the word and use it. And presumably hipster is "person who wears clothing low on the hips". Just because it's technology doesn't except it from the normal rules of words. All new words start from a meaning. But the meaning is interesting historically, it's not used for everyday speech. If you want to make the word French you don't translate it literally - it's not actually a motor. Call it a "research-majigy" or something like that.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  "Search engine" is not jargon. An English speaker from a century ago would understand what it meant - although they wouldn't know from what you were building the engine, or what it was meant to search. Search engine? http://www.etoday.ru/assets_c/2009/11/sobaka2-thumb-600x462-66874.jpg http://www.etoday.ru/assets_c/2009/11/sobaka2-thumb-600x462-...
- walshemj 13y ago
  Yep there is a civil service bureaucracy that comes up with new approved "french" words for example disque dur for a hard disk or DASD if your an IBM type. A few years ago I had the job of installing Wordstar 2000 for our bi/tri ligual typing pool and had to refer to a french technical dictionary a lot :-)
  - mitosis 13y ago
    News flash: different languages use different words!
    - walshemj 13y ago
      News flash languages are mutable and borrow words from other languages all the time - not even UKIP complain about french or german loan words e.g. Café schadenfreude and so on. It seem that only France seems to feel the need to have a bureaucracy to try (in a king canute like way) to hold back the tides.
      - mitosis 13y ago
        Only France, hm? Let me google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=language+academies&l=1 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=language+academies&l=1 Just because English borrows words more easily than most other languages ("We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -- James Nicoll) and has no central language regulating authority, doesn't mean all languages ought to work the same way. Complaining that the French say "disque dur" instead of "hard disk" is just silly, because "disque dur" means "hard disk" in French. It's a literal translation. There's no reason to use an English term when there's a perfectly good French one available! Why don't you use a German loanword and call it a Festplattenlaufwerk in English?
- kalleboo 13y ago
  > I suppose in france they also translate "main" and "void" in C programs? Visual Basic was translated (keywords and all) to many european languages. Excel formulas still have translations.

laumars 13y ago

Every country does that to some degree, even the Americans. One thing that always niggles me is when I see an icon for the American flag for English in language options on web sites. Given the number of countries which have English as one of the primary languages (just off the top of my head: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India, South Africa and, of course, the UK) it seems slightly misplaced for an American developer to put an American flag for English language options. Just as you wouldn't want a Mexican developer use a Mexican icon for Spanish language options. A lot of the examples in the article you linked to makes complete sense too. In most of those cases the nouns are what's been translated and the proper nouns have been largely left in English; as far as I know, that's how languages normally work. That said, I don't see the point to the governments alternative word for e-mail.

freehunter 13y ago
If the software/web page is meant to be consumed primarily in the US when used in English, would it make sense to put an Indian flag there?
- lmm 13y ago
  The fact that you've got a language selection at all implies that it's an international site. If it's a store or some such it would be a very unusual American website that shipped abroad but not to Canada. (I'm not sure what "meant to be consumed primarily in the US" even means; I don't have national borders in mind when writing. For most sites it makes very little difference which country a visitor happens to be from.)
  - freehunter 13y ago
    The US and Canada have the primary language of English. But Canada also has French, and certain sections of the US have Spanish as a predominant language. Just one example: If I have a US company that also ships to Canada, it makes sense to have the US flag for English and the French (or Canadian?) flag for French Canadian. It also makes sense to have the Mexican flag for the Spanish option, because most of my Spanish speaking customers are likely to hail from Mexico, with a small number from other Central American countries. What would not make sense is to have a UK flag for American customers, a Spanish flag for Mexican customers, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo flag for French, just to appease people who will never buy from my site. You might not have national borders in mind, but it pays to know what language your customers speak as well as what countries they are from.

username42 13y ago

CNIL is probably the single office in French bureaucracy that understand internet. The problem is that it is alone and has no support from government and has very reduced means of action.

pbhjpbhj 13y ago

Let me quote from the article: > « The CNIL explanation of its imposition of the fine says that “the company does not sufficiently inform its users about the conditions and purposes of processing data” and that “it does not set retention periods for all data process” and that “it allows, without any legal basis, the combination of all the data it collects about users across all of its services”. » // This sounds like a complaint that you might find on HN any day of the week - unwarranted use of personal information by Google. I don't see how the OP is especially French not when you take in to account, as is mentioned, that several other EU states have similar objections standing. The French are almost democratic in their fascination with the rights of the individual, no? Yes, if you think responsible curacy of your users personal information is beyond the pale then don't deal with countries that attempt to protect their citizens/subjects from such abuses [by private companies at least!].

pcrh 13y ago

While it is true that L'académie française sometimes comes out with peculiar recommendations, this particular blog does a poor job of pointing them out. In particular, the author does not appear to have a very good grasp of colloquial French, or the history of some terms used in the software and computer fields. For example: 1) courriel is not a contraction of courrier and email, but of courrier électronique (i.e. electronic mail). 2) The verb planter in the context of a computer crash does not derive directly from "to plant", but from a colloquial term meaning to make a mistake (itself possibly derived from some sense of becoming like a vegetable/plant).

jmnicolas 13y ago

Because Frenchies like to be French and would like to remain different in a world where everything is "Holliwoodized". OK the real reason is they suck at learning English so they need to translate everything ;-) Being French I'd appreciate if HN remained free of the usual French bashing that is common on Anglo-saxon forums. I don't understand, people still react like we were a country that matters ...

kalleboo 13y ago
> OK the real reason is they suck at learning English so they need to translate everything ;-) Not really, Swedes are #1 in the world at English as a second language and aren't afraid to flaunt it, but we also translate most technical terms. It's just way easier to use in a conversation.

wozniacki 13y ago

France is a nation of silly customs and infuriatingly odd notions of fairness and justice. Starting January 1, Uber drivers in France will have to wait 15 minutes between receiving a reservation and actually picking up the customer. The rule, reported by French newspaper Libération, is meant to "better distinguish the activity of these vehicles from that of taxis," as only taxis have the right to drive around looking for customers, instead of taking reservations. More simply, it's designed to protect the legal monopoly of taxis by making services like Uber a lot slower and a lot less convenient. [1] Thankfully the decree was struck down. France’s Conseil d’État suspended the controversial decree against urban transportation services like Uber and LeCab. As a reminder, since January 1, drivers have had to wait 15 minutes between the time a customer hails them and they let them in the car. But it created a competitive imbalance, that’s why the rule was just suspended — TechCrunch has confirmed with multiple services. The French authority will now have to state whether this law should be completely repealed. In France, the cab industry is very regulated, and taxi licenses are hard to obtain. Over the past few years, the French government has been very understanding with cab drivers as they have the ability to block airports and city centers. Many cab drivers started to consider LeCab, Chauffeur-privé, SnapCar, Allocab, Uber and countless of others as direct competitors — they wanted something from the government.[2] [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/french-law-makes-uber-less-convenient-2013-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/french-law-makes-uber-less-co... [2] http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/council-of-state-suspends-15-minute-law-against-uber-lecab-and-others-in-france/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/05/council-of-state-suspends-1...

pbhjpbhj 13y ago
OK, what does this have to do with abuse of personal information though as highlighted in the OP?
kalleboo 13y ago
Said as if the Taxi lobbies in US cities aren't trying to do the same thing... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/technology/app-maker-uber-hits-regulatory-snarl.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/technology/app-maker-uber-... And one [rule] says limousines may not accept a request for a ride that is made less than 30 minutes in advance, which would impede Uber’s primary business model of connecting luxury car drivers with passengers immediately

RivieraKid 13y ago

Because staying is profitable.