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>What if the women just work less hours than the men (which seems to be the case)? >women more likely to stay home because they have lower wages. What if they c
by aestra 13y ago
>What if the women just work less hours than the men (which seems to be the case)?
>women more likely to stay home because they have lower wages. What if they chose a profession with lower wages because they knew they'd be staying home anyway? Or maybe they chose a less paid, but more fun job, because they don't need to provide for the whole family?
If you ever even paid attention to such studies you are trying to debunk you would realize that many take this into consideration and see that there are still differences in pay even though factors like that are taken into consideration very carefully. Even though the wage gap does lessen when those are taken into consideration.
>I suspect a lot of feminists don't have children yet, so they don't even know what it means.
Of course that is absurd. My mother is a feminist.
Then I just Wikipediaed list of feminist and it was not at ALL hard to find a bunch with children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Steinem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Steinem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Klein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Klein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Frank_Ward http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Frank_Ward
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Valenti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Valenti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Najimy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Najimy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Ohly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Ohly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Nussbaum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Nussbaum
>To me, having witnessed my wife toiling in labor for hours, it seems ridiculous to send a woman right back to work after having given birth to her child
Nobody said women need to return to work after giving birth. The whole point of feminism is everyone has a choice to do what they want. They have a choice to go back to work, or stay at home. Or the man or same sex partner can stay at home if they wish too, without any problems.
>Also I suspect most wage gap studies neglect to mention that women automatically get half of their husbands income.
Of course that isn't what we are taking about. AT ALL. Not even close. We are talking about two people doing exactly the same job and one person getting paid less. Except it is two groups doing the same job and one group getting paid less. These are people who do equally well in their jobs.
>Are there even employers who pay their female employees less than the males?
Yes. Is it outright "I don't like women?" Probably not. See my last reply to you.
>But what if it is a privilege instead?
If you actually understood feminism rather than just blindly shot it down you'd understand that feminist just want women and men to be treated as equals. They want men to have the same opportunities to spend time with their children as women and the same opportunities to work as women without societal pressure. It's all up to the choices each individual and family wants to make for themselves. But if a women chooses to do labor in the job market she should be treated as an equal to men. That's all these feminist are saying. if she chooses not to have children, then she should also be respected.
People like to think of feminism as something that's a scary monster or something. It is simply the belief that men and women should be treated as equals. Feminism deals with men's issues too when they are unequal to that of women's such as in the realm of child custody.
- facepalm 13y ago"that many take this into consideration" Whenever they do that, the wage gap tends to shrink to a very low number (I think 2 to 4%) - of course most feminist outlets prefer to quote the 23% or other higher numbers instead. I am not convinced that the remainder has to be "discrimination". Perhaps they just haven't thought of every possible factor? Take women in IT - how many samples did they even find for female programmers? I am highly skeptic about most studies really comparing men and women doing exactly the same job. I have tried to get data for such studies to check, but it tends to be not available. "Of course that is absurd. My mother is a feminist." I never said that no feminists are mothers. Besides I think a lot of feminists don't really understand what they are even fighting for. If you define feminism as "equality for men and women", most people would probably say they are feminists. Did your mother take time off to spend with you then? "The whole point of feminism is everyone has a choice to do what they want." At face value - but they seem to have a hard time accepting that people want different things, and that perhaps women WANT to stay home more often than men. Or rather, as I suspect, are given the opportunity more often. If you want real equality and you measure that aspect, you would have to force women to go back to work as quickly as possible after child birth, so that the fathers can have their turn at staying at home. Of course feminists think staying at home with children is a horrible ordeal, but I think if they finally get their wish they might regret it once they have children. In France where this might have started (with Simone de Beauvoir) there is now a counter movement of mothers who don't want to give their kid to childcare at age 3 months anymore. And afaik Beauvoir didn't demand women should go to work because it would free them, but because she saw the time with children as too easy and tempting to slack off. She wanted to force women to be tough. "They want men to have the same opportunities to spend time with their children as women and the same opportunities to work as women without societal pressure." It doesn't sound like that in most publications, though. The idea seems rather that spending time with children is horrible and men should shoulder their equal half of the burden instead of having fun at work. If you read so many studies, you probably also read that childless women actually tend to earn more than men. So not being respected is not really the issue. Children ARE the main issue. It is a problem that employers have to worry about female employees dropping out, and therefore the value of a female employee might be lessened. Not only that - thinking about the costs of education, I wonder if it is also less likely to pay off for a woman if she has to take a few years off that could otherwise be used to earn back the money spent on education. That is a real issue I accept. The solution seems less clear. Feminism seems to assume that women simply want the same things as men. But what if they really want to spend time with their kids? I don't think it is unfair to let there be a cost to that. It's a problem for women who don't want kids, but what would be a good solution? "It is simply the belief that men and women should be treated as equals." It's not, unfortunately. It is the idea that women are victims and should get special treatment because of that. But I grant you that many feminists probably believe your version. The irony is that most feminists demands really hurt women. For example now they fight for childcare everywhere. In result there will be no excuse to stay at home with children, and both father and mother will earn less (because of more people in the workforce) and be unable to afford to leave one parent at home. Capitalism wins - not women...