11 ms·

Investors want Microsoft’s new CEO to kill Xbox, Bing and Surface

55 points by mafuyu 13y ago

jinushaun 13y ago
I feel like making a u-turn to be "all in" on enterprise is the wrong move and just delaying the inevitable. Computing devices are no longer bought in large numbers by exclusively big businesses. The iPhone has shown that business customers go home, buy consumer products, love how much better it works than what they use at the office and want to bring it to work. The recent data on mobile device sales compared to Windows PCs is especially damning. Secondly, Google, Facebook and the rest of "new tech" industry is not built on MS tech. What is actually enterprise? Size? If a gigantic company like Google can crunch all that data and have such amazing uptime without MS tech, then who needs MS? Every year a new generation create their own startup and they choose anything but MS. To me, enterprise means established, old and slow. If all the old guards will be disrupted and die out like I think they will, then MS will have no one left to sell to! Increasingly even the old guard is messing around with Linux and OSS in order to be more agile. Consumer is the future and MS needs to embrace it or die. They just have to stop making mistakes like Windows 8.
- mukundmr 13y ago
  The decline of the desktop and rise of the tablet / smartphone / wearable computers forces enterprises to have heterogenous systems that can support these platforms. It no longer makes sense to have a Microsoft only solution in the longer term.
- arethuza 13y ago
  "Consumer is the future and MS needs to embrace it or die" Google and Facebook may be huge, but as a percentage of the global economy they are still pretty small (e.g. look at the Forbes Global 2000) - the enterprise world is everything all those other companies need to operate and it's the world of IBM, Oracle, SAP and Microsoft and thousands of specialized ISVs. I'd be rather surprised if Google or Facebook wrote their own consolidated financial reporting or payroll software (indeed Google seems to use Oracle Hyperion FM for consolidated reporting and planning, as does Facebook). At the moment, Microsoft has some pretty decent enterprise products, but they only sell them through partners - one possibility for growth and really focusing on the enterprise space would be to emulate IBM and focus on services and products - either by greatly increasing the size of their existing consulting arm and/or buying a few of the existing large service partners.
TrainedMonkey 13y ago
Investors would also want Google to kill G+. Product line does not have to make money to be significant part of the brand.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  ORLY? References / sources?
  - TrainedMonkey 13y ago
    It is hard to find anything relevant to Google+ now because of the amount of shit content, however here is one article from 2011: http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2011/06/30/why-google-plus-is-a-big-minus-for-investors/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2011/06/30/why-googl... Around that time there were a bunch of them with some people even trying to make a case for shorting GOOG.
  - lachlanj 13y ago
    OS X. Now free
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      No, I was referring to investors wanting G+ killed. Which investors, where (and recognizing you're not the OP).
    - Adirael 13y ago
      That's completely different. OS X is not really free, the same way iOS is not free. It just comes bundled with the hardware and you get updates till the EOL of the product.
      - nly 13y ago
        Much like Android. It's free for 12 months or so, after which your product support is shrugged off.
    - 13y ago
sentenza 13y ago
Listen, I'm no fan of Microsoft, but those investors better keep their hands of the ergonomic keyboard product line, or I'll... I'll... probably have to stockpile them? Seriously though, the ergo 4000 is the best keyboard I've ever owned and I'd hate to see it gone by the hand of somebody who just doesn't care enough.
- julianpye 13y ago
  Potential Stockpiler of the 4000 here as well. We should form an interest and alert group for the day when it becomes reality... :)
  - mseebach 13y ago
    The point of stockpiling is that you do it before scarcity sets in.
- Implicated 13y ago
  Wait...they're messing with the 4000?
  - sentenza 13y ago
    Not yet, as far as I know. I just wanted to point out that, if they are willing to axe the Xbox or Bing, an unimportant but great product such as the ergo 4000 could be killed any time.
- thenomad 13y ago
  I already have a small stockpile, but I might have to make it a larger one.
quaunaut 13y ago
Wait, they what? Bing and Surface I can understand to a degree, but they want Microsoft to kill Xbox, one of their strongest brands, and one of Microsoft's only hopes for differentiation? For what, to chase the smartphone game or something?
- adamors 13y ago
  Considering just how big of a financial black hole Xbox has been throughout the years, it's not surprising. Some sources say the 360 lost about 3 billion[1] while others that it lost 2.5 billion PER year[2]. The Xbone lost about 1 billion dollars so far (was expected to lose 2)[3] And it's not just Microsoft that is losing money on these consoles, Sony is in the read as well. [4] [1]: http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-h... [2]: http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-microsoft-losing-2-billion-on-xbox-annually-265273.phtml http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-microsoft-losing-2-billio... [3]: http://bgr.com/2013/11/26/xbox-one-profit-estimate/ http://bgr.com/2013/11/26/xbox-one-profit-estimate/ [4]: http://www.vg247.com/2013/01/07/xbox-360-and-ps3-losses-total-8-billion-ex-sony-employee-paints-grim-future/ http://www.vg247.com/2013/01/07/xbox-360-and-ps3-losses-tota...
  - hershel 13y ago
    Why should MS invest in hardware, when PC's offer better hardware, run the windows store to share profit with MS and have good enough DRM(as steam shows, and might even be improved by working with pc manufacturers) ? Most likely in the future, MS will do something similar to steam - just sell software for so called "consoles", and have hardware partners. That will help with the losses issues.
    - Already__Taken 13y ago
      I think there's a case for MS to make hardware either to show what top notch PC kit looks like or a cheap minimum to stop OEMs pumping out worse than that. MS don't need to make the consumer device everyone has they just have to force OEMs to not make piles of crap. In a way I think intel kind of own how well MS can perform with hardware. If they didn't push utlrabooks I don't know if we would have gotten anything in the pc space as well built as some apple kit.
gtirloni 13y ago
That's not going to happen anytime soon. Especially for Bing which powers not only the search website but many other Windows infrastructure in the background. With the Surface, even if it doesn't make any money, it serves the purpose of showing OEMs what they could/should be doing (much like with Google Nexus devices). And Xbox... they will be holding on there for as long as the whole console industry can (same for PS4). We are going to see all Microsoft stakeholders (from investors to employees to managers) try their hand at the new CEO. No surprise the first movers are some investors, they're greedy and in just for the money.
quanticle 13y ago
It doesn't make a lot of sense for Microsoft to kill XBox. Killing XBox would mean throwing away a successful line of business that is finally generating substantial profit after nearly a decade of investment. It would also be terrible for morale at the company. Here is a scrappy part of the business that went into a market where Microsoft was laughed off when it entered: game consoles. And after a dozen years, they've gone from last-place losers to a dominant, #1 position with the XBox 360. If the reward for this victory was dissolution and abandonment, then what motivation would there be for anyone to do any kind of innovative or disruptive work at Microsoft?
- josephlord 13y ago
  > to a dominant, #1 position with the XBox 360 Only in the US. Globally it certainly wasn't dominant and was probably behind the PS3.
_pmf_ 13y ago
Killing Xbox is a slippery slope; this would slowly kill Windows as a gaming platform.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  Well they already killed their XNA framework...
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Regardless how much XNA was praised, it was a indie only thing. The majority of professional studios still use C++ based engines. Unity is the Microsoft's endorsed replacement for XNA, as announced in the Visual Studio 2013 release keynote.
    - CmonDev 13y ago
      Unity is not for everyone though. There is a lot of hobbyists who prefer writing games instead of scripting ready-made chunks. Also it has a lot of warts (nothing is ideal): http://t-machine.org/index.php/2013/12/27/2014-entity-systems-what-are-your-unity3d-questions-and-problems/#comments http://t-machine.org/index.php/2013/12/27/2014-entity-system... XNA is a good public image making tool, not just an API. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23becauseofXNA&src=hash https://twitter.com/search?q=%23becauseofXNA&src=hash MonoGame is unfortunately still lacking an own content pipeline.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        Since I am comfortable with C++, I tend to play around with engines with C++ bindings. I rather use C++ than being stuck in .NET 3.5, without any more modern C# goodies. As for scripting ready-made chunks, I guess one has to decide if they want to make a game or a game engine.
        CmonDev 13y ago
        "I rather use C++ than being stuck in .NET 3.5, without any more modern C# goodies" - I use all modern C# features with XNA - what is the issue (except for async/await maybe)? "I guess one has to decide if they want to make a game or a game engine" - exactly, but there should be a choice. XNA being a framework rather than engine provided such a choice in a high-level way.
Aoyagi 13y ago
Killing XBox brand and not killing Windows Phone? I don't understand. WP8 is getting numbers hugely thanks to very cheap Lumia 520, which, to my understanding, is barely generating any profit or is even generating loss. And even then I haven't seen anyone who said "Wow, this is great, my next phone must have WP in it!"... a priori fanbois aside.
- Already__Taken 13y ago
  Anecdotal but I've seen a few friends, some techie that want /use the windows phone. Seems to appeal to the "I just want a damn phone" crowd.
Aloha 13y ago
Probably not. This is about the myopic quarter to quarter focus on profits by the market, the stock market in the last 30 years has been increasingly unable to to focus on the long game - if it does generate income or profit by the next quarter, its rubbish. This attitude has wormed its way all through the economy, its part of why its hard to get a company to promote from within - they expect their employees to come from the outside with all the tool/skills/knowledge to hit the road running - even if they are at a significant disadvantage in actually understanding a companies operations. It used to be you could get an entry level job and company X, and expect a regular set of promotions up the chain, now, to get that promotion, you need to go work some place else almost.
- YokoZar 13y ago
  I'm not too convinced this is due to short term thinking: if you're a short-term investor you still benefit from a company using a long term strategy because you can just sell the stock.
- WalterBright 13y ago
  > This is about the myopic quarter to quarter focus on profits by the market, the stock market in the last 30 years has been increasingly unable to to focus on the long game - if it does generate income or profit by the next quarter, its rubbish. I've seen this sentiment about the market like, forever. Yes, I've been investing in the market for 30 years. But I seriously doubt that investors are so stupid. If they were pushing up stock prices based on quarterly results and the long game be damned, then where are all the smart investors shorting those companies? Are you making money on shorts? And, why are there companies like Amazon with enormous P/E's? Clearly, investors are playing the long game with them.
  - Aloha 13y ago
    You sorta made my point for me. My argument is that the market wants quarter to quarter growth over stability. There are many industries that are stable, generate lots of revenue, are profitable, but do not generate high stock prices because of no growth, like: Truck Stops Utilities Tire Companies Banks Insurance My argument is before the mid 80's - the focus was on the dividend not on the stock price itself, IMO, buying and selling based on stock price, rather than earning disbursed to shareholders, is merely speculation, rather than investing.
blueskin_ 13y ago
It this means they stop ruining Windows, I'm all for it.
beloch 13y ago
One word: Idiots. Seriously, those investors are morons. MS has never been a a company that fits the adjective: "lean". MS is practically a post-secondary institution unto itself! MS' far-reaching speculative research is the stuff of legend, and far too infrequently translated into the commercial sphere. Anyone who thinks they should narrow their focus and ignore more of the fruits of their labor instead of less is an idiot.
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  Microsoft has never made a profit with Xbox. In fact, they've only lost billions of dollars on it, and the chance to recover them isactually smaller than it was for Xbox 360, not just because I think Sony has a stronger showing this time around (and at a lower price to boot), but because I don't think the new consoles have a life bigger than 5 years in them.
  - uvTwitch 13y ago
    This is false, they broke even midway through the 360's lifespan and are now turning a profit both on it and the xbone.
- jfoster 13y ago
  Well, not necessarily idiots. I'm sure they understand the longer term value of those brands and products to Microsoft. Investors are not necessarily in it for the long-term, though. They might buy a substantial stake, pressure the CEO into cutting valuable (but currently loss-making) divisions, and be looking to sell that stake after a couple of really strong-looking quarters. None of that is good for Microsoft, but the investors are potentially behaving quite rationally. (if a bit destructively...)
  - Joeri 13y ago
    This is the thing that is often glossed over when discussing what investors want out of a company. The primary goal of an investment is to provide a large return in a short timeframe, regardless of what happens after cashing out. Burning up a company's future to inflate short-term profits can be a perfectly fine strategy for an investor. You could argue that the last people who should have a say in how a company runs its affairs are the investors, because they are the most likely to make decisions that are bad for the company.
qq66 13y ago
Thank god they're investors and not CEOs.
- CmonDev 13y ago
  They are not even investors, rather short-term-price-fluctuation traders.
rottyguy 13y ago
With Amazon and Google finding some success in diversifying their offerings, one must posit if this is what companies need to do to remain competitive and sustain. Leaders lead!
venomsnake 13y ago
Well Microsoft got XBOX wrong two times in a row. So no surprises here. Only the first XBOX was good console IMO. XBone and 360 were disappointments [1]. Surface is also one of the products Microsoft almost got right - there was real interest on windows on ARM at the time. But full windows. And Bing - well its only advantage over google is the turned off content filter. [1] Owned 360 for 5 years, played 5 hours on it.
- dclowd9901 13y ago
  How can you say xbone is a disappointment? I have a jar of mayo that's been around longer than that device. Give it a year or two, sheesh.
- pilif 13y ago
  > [1] Owned 360 for 5 years, played 5 hours on it. so because YOU only played 5 hours on YOUR 360, the console was a failure? Let me counter your anecdote with one of my own: The XBOX was a disappointment and the 360 was a good console. Reason: I played much more on my 360 than the original. The 360 was around for a much longer time than the original and there were many more games made for the 360 than for the original. If you don't believe that to be enough, there were 24M original xboxes sold, compared to 80M xbox 360.
  - venomsnake 13y ago
    The run of X360 was almost twice of the Xbox. Correct for that. Also PS2 shipped 150 million units by which metric the whole 7th gen was disappointment because PS3 and X360 managed to ship slightly more combined. But yes - 360 was a failure. We got stratification of the published, ballooning budgets, total homogenization of the games. Every abusive trick ever from publishers on the consoles, red ring of death, needlessly complicated online survives (the whole MS points crap), XBOX live gold subscriptions and the console barely broke even at best from every report I have ever read. The decision for the HDD to be optional was "brilliant". The first few revisions of the hardware were poorly made. Instead of the ugly but perfectly cool able and boring xbox we got something elegant, pretty, noisy and overheating.
andyjohnson0 13y ago
"Morfit is a 37-year-old activist investor whose employer, the private hedge fund ValueAct, acquired a 0.8 percent stake in Microsoft in August. That was enough to put Morfit on the board." Slightly OT, but how does owning < 1% of a company's shares qualify for a board seat? Can someone who knows about these things enlighten me?
- lutusp 13y ago
  > Slightly OT, but how does owning < 1% of a company's shares qualify for a board seat? Can someone who knows about these things enlighten me? That's easy to explain: 1. Corporate boards should show a fair representation of the largest stockholders. 2. For a board with 100 members, it should be apparent that anyone with more than 1% of the corporation's stock must be given a place on the board. But this only makes a point and isn't a typical board -- 100 members is unwieldy. 3. Another case is one in which the majority of the corporation stock is held by many small investors and there are only a few majority stockholders. In this case, someone holding more than an individual investor but less than the majority investors may still earn a place, even on a relatively small board. 4. Another way to describe this is to take the number of board seats and distribute them among those individuals who hold the largest stock holdings, in declining order. For example, let's say there are ten board positions, five majority stockholders and a pool of smaller investors with quickly declining stock percentages. In this case, a stockholder with a very small stake might acquire a position on the board simply by being counted among the ten largest stockholders.
- yvoschaap2 13y ago
  At 300 billion market cap .8% = 2.4 billion investment. It seems ValueAct demanded changes from the management and they could argue they represent the vision of also other (activist) shareholders. Read this article for details: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323324904579045373716627460 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732332490...
rdl 13y ago
I wonder if they could sell Xbox to Lenovo for $huge. I don't think consoles are going to do very well this time -- mobile gaming killed the market for 'people who will tolerate lower spec hardware because it's convenient', and IIRC the PS3/360 were better relative to $2k PCs when launched than the PS4/Xbone are today relative to $2k PCs. The PS3/360 have been pretty mediocre for years, so the PS4/Xbone are going to get mediocre in a couple of years, so there's a long period of ugh ahead. Media convergence is the only reason to keep the Xbone business, but if Microsoft focuses on Enterprise (or at least "work"), that doesn't matter, either.
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  I don't play games at all but saying that gamers moved to mobile games is beyond silly.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - CmonDev 13y ago
    There will be stronger separation between casual and hardcore when Oculus Rift is out. Mobile is something you play on the train.
  - rdl 13y ago
    Current gamers didn't, but their kids did, reducing the demand for new consoles. I went the other way (back to PC gaming, had PS3/360; won't get PS4/Xbone until there's a platform exclusive I must have)
xbadxapple 13y ago
Well this is a cocky attitude. They have a bit of right, though. Bing is just downright horrendous, Xbox is a not-so-good tier compared to other consoles in the sector. They need some optimization with allocating resources and offering services.
pedalpete 13y ago
Killing Surface may be premature. As far as I can tell, Surface Pro 2 is currently out of stock basically everywhere. Windows RT, I'd be happy to call that one pretty much dead anyway. Unless they can figure out a way to get full windows apps running on ARM devices, I don't see the point. Intel chips are going to improve in performance and battery life to the point where they are nearly comparable with ARM (or at least to a point where it matters). Then, the argument would be mute and we won't be making a decision between RT and Full Windows. Bing, I'm not so sure. I actually quite like Bing, but I don't see where Microsoft is going to make a huge impact with it. XBox, I can't believe they're loosing money on it, particularly after the huge success of the kinect. Either way, it's Microsoft's ticket into the livingroom.
- nobodysfool 13y ago
  >Surface Pro 2 is currently out of stock basically everywhere Not really. http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/tablets/microsoft/surface/ http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/tablets/microsoft/surfac...
uvTwitch 13y ago
I don't think many would miss Bing, but killing off the Surface, Windows Phone, and especially the Xbox, to focus on being another Oracle? What a pair of fuckwits these moron 'investors' are! I can think of no better way to give a company like them a slow 10-20 year death. Somebody should fire these poison shareholders.
mark_l_watson 13y ago
I don't own a surface, but I think future version of the Surface might end up being a very good product, and thus profitable. I imagine the next version of Surface being 1/3 lighter, 1/3 less expensive, and I am likely to buy one, even though I don't even own a Windows device right now. Off topic: the new lighter iPads are awesome. A very light weight bluetooth keyboard cover that is designed by Apple and is extremely thin and light weight would potentially eat the Surface's lunch - for users who don't specifically need Windows applications.

55 points by mafuyu 13y ago

I feel like making a u-turn to be "all in" on enterprise is the wrong move and just delaying the inevitable. Computing devices are no longer bought in large numbers by exclusively big businesses. The iPhone has shown that business customers go home, buy consumer products, love how much better it works than what they use at the office and want to bring it to work. The recent data on mobile device sales compared to Windows PCs is especially damning. Secondly, Google, Facebook and the rest of "new tech" industry is not built on MS tech. What is actually enterprise? Size? If a gigantic company like Google can crunch all that data and have such amazing uptime without MS tech, then who needs MS? Every year a new generation create their own startup and they choose anything but MS. To me, enterprise means established, old and slow. If all the old guards will be disrupted and die out like I think they will, then MS will have no one left to sell to! Increasingly even the old guard is messing around with Linux and OSS in order to be more agile. Consumer is the future and MS needs to embrace it or die. They just have to stop making mistakes like Windows 8.

mukundmr 13y ago
The decline of the desktop and rise of the tablet / smartphone / wearable computers forces enterprises to have heterogenous systems that can support these platforms. It no longer makes sense to have a Microsoft only solution in the longer term.
arethuza 13y ago
"Consumer is the future and MS needs to embrace it or die" Google and Facebook may be huge, but as a percentage of the global economy they are still pretty small (e.g. look at the Forbes Global 2000) - the enterprise world is everything all those other companies need to operate and it's the world of IBM, Oracle, SAP and Microsoft and thousands of specialized ISVs. I'd be rather surprised if Google or Facebook wrote their own consolidated financial reporting or payroll software (indeed Google seems to use Oracle Hyperion FM for consolidated reporting and planning, as does Facebook). At the moment, Microsoft has some pretty decent enterprise products, but they only sell them through partners - one possibility for growth and really focusing on the enterprise space would be to emulate IBM and focus on services and products - either by greatly increasing the size of their existing consulting arm and/or buying a few of the existing large service partners.

TrainedMonkey 13y ago

Investors would also want Google to kill G+. Product line does not have to make money to be significant part of the brand.

dredmorbius 13y ago
ORLY? References / sources?
- TrainedMonkey 13y ago
  It is hard to find anything relevant to Google+ now because of the amount of shit content, however here is one article from 2011: http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2011/06/30/why-google-plus-is-a-big-minus-for-investors/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2011/06/30/why-googl... Around that time there were a bunch of them with some people even trying to make a case for shorting GOOG.
- lachlanj 13y ago
  OS X. Now free
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    No, I was referring to investors wanting G+ killed. Which investors, where (and recognizing you're not the OP).
  - Adirael 13y ago
    That's completely different. OS X is not really free, the same way iOS is not free. It just comes bundled with the hardware and you get updates till the EOL of the product.
    - nly 13y ago
      Much like Android. It's free for 12 months or so, after which your product support is shrugged off.
  - 13y ago

sentenza 13y ago

Listen, I'm no fan of Microsoft, but those investors better keep their hands of the ergonomic keyboard product line, or I'll... I'll... probably have to stockpile them? Seriously though, the ergo 4000 is the best keyboard I've ever owned and I'd hate to see it gone by the hand of somebody who just doesn't care enough.

julianpye 13y ago
Potential Stockpiler of the 4000 here as well. We should form an interest and alert group for the day when it becomes reality... :)
- mseebach 13y ago
  The point of stockpiling is that you do it before scarcity sets in.
Implicated 13y ago
Wait...they're messing with the 4000?
- sentenza 13y ago
  Not yet, as far as I know. I just wanted to point out that, if they are willing to axe the Xbox or Bing, an unimportant but great product such as the ergo 4000 could be killed any time.
thenomad 13y ago
I already have a small stockpile, but I might have to make it a larger one.

quaunaut 13y ago

Wait, they what? Bing and Surface I can understand to a degree, but they want Microsoft to kill Xbox, one of their strongest brands, and one of Microsoft's only hopes for differentiation? For what, to chase the smartphone game or something?

adamors 13y ago
Considering just how big of a financial black hole Xbox has been throughout the years, it's not surprising. Some sources say the 360 lost about 3 billion[1] while others that it lost 2.5 billion PER year[2]. The Xbone lost about 1 billion dollars so far (was expected to lose 2)[3] And it's not just Microsoft that is losing money on these consoles, Sony is in the read as well. [4] [1]: http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-has-lost-nearly-3-billion-in-10-years http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsofts-xbox-division-h... [2]: http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-microsoft-losing-2-billion-on-xbox-annually-265273.phtml http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-microsoft-losing-2-billio... [3]: http://bgr.com/2013/11/26/xbox-one-profit-estimate/ http://bgr.com/2013/11/26/xbox-one-profit-estimate/ [4]: http://www.vg247.com/2013/01/07/xbox-360-and-ps3-losses-total-8-billion-ex-sony-employee-paints-grim-future/ http://www.vg247.com/2013/01/07/xbox-360-and-ps3-losses-tota...
- hershel 13y ago
  Why should MS invest in hardware, when PC's offer better hardware, run the windows store to share profit with MS and have good enough DRM(as steam shows, and might even be improved by working with pc manufacturers) ? Most likely in the future, MS will do something similar to steam - just sell software for so called "consoles", and have hardware partners. That will help with the losses issues.
  - Already__Taken 13y ago
    I think there's a case for MS to make hardware either to show what top notch PC kit looks like or a cheap minimum to stop OEMs pumping out worse than that. MS don't need to make the consumer device everyone has they just have to force OEMs to not make piles of crap. In a way I think intel kind of own how well MS can perform with hardware. If they didn't push utlrabooks I don't know if we would have gotten anything in the pc space as well built as some apple kit.

gtirloni 13y ago

That's not going to happen anytime soon. Especially for Bing which powers not only the search website but many other Windows infrastructure in the background. With the Surface, even if it doesn't make any money, it serves the purpose of showing OEMs what they could/should be doing (much like with Google Nexus devices). And Xbox... they will be holding on there for as long as the whole console industry can (same for PS4). We are going to see all Microsoft stakeholders (from investors to employees to managers) try their hand at the new CEO. No surprise the first movers are some investors, they're greedy and in just for the money.

quanticle 13y ago

It doesn't make a lot of sense for Microsoft to kill XBox. Killing XBox would mean throwing away a successful line of business that is finally generating substantial profit after nearly a decade of investment. It would also be terrible for morale at the company. Here is a scrappy part of the business that went into a market where Microsoft was laughed off when it entered: game consoles. And after a dozen years, they've gone from last-place losers to a dominant, #1 position with the XBox 360. If the reward for this victory was dissolution and abandonment, then what motivation would there be for anyone to do any kind of innovative or disruptive work at Microsoft?

josephlord 13y ago
> to a dominant, #1 position with the XBox 360 Only in the US. Globally it certainly wasn't dominant and was probably behind the PS3.

_pmf_ 13y ago

Killing Xbox is a slippery slope; this would slowly kill Windows as a gaming platform.

Mikeb85 13y ago
Well they already killed their XNA framework...
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Regardless how much XNA was praised, it was a indie only thing. The majority of professional studios still use C++ based engines. Unity is the Microsoft's endorsed replacement for XNA, as announced in the Visual Studio 2013 release keynote.
  - CmonDev 13y ago
    Unity is not for everyone though. There is a lot of hobbyists who prefer writing games instead of scripting ready-made chunks. Also it has a lot of warts (nothing is ideal): http://t-machine.org/index.php/2013/12/27/2014-entity-systems-what-are-your-unity3d-questions-and-problems/#comments http://t-machine.org/index.php/2013/12/27/2014-entity-system... XNA is a good public image making tool, not just an API. https://twitter.com/search?q=%23becauseofXNA&src=hash https://twitter.com/search?q=%23becauseofXNA&src=hash MonoGame is unfortunately still lacking an own content pipeline.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Since I am comfortable with C++, I tend to play around with engines with C++ bindings. I rather use C++ than being stuck in .NET 3.5, without any more modern C# goodies. As for scripting ready-made chunks, I guess one has to decide if they want to make a game or a game engine.
      - CmonDev 13y ago
        "I rather use C++ than being stuck in .NET 3.5, without any more modern C# goodies" - I use all modern C# features with XNA - what is the issue (except for async/await maybe)? "I guess one has to decide if they want to make a game or a game engine" - exactly, but there should be a choice. XNA being a framework rather than engine provided such a choice in a high-level way.

Aoyagi 13y ago

Killing XBox brand and not killing Windows Phone? I don't understand. WP8 is getting numbers hugely thanks to very cheap Lumia 520, which, to my understanding, is barely generating any profit or is even generating loss. And even then I haven't seen anyone who said "Wow, this is great, my next phone must have WP in it!"... a priori fanbois aside.

Already__Taken 13y ago
Anecdotal but I've seen a few friends, some techie that want /use the windows phone. Seems to appeal to the "I just want a damn phone" crowd.

Aloha 13y ago

Probably not. This is about the myopic quarter to quarter focus on profits by the market, the stock market in the last 30 years has been increasingly unable to to focus on the long game - if it does generate income or profit by the next quarter, its rubbish. This attitude has wormed its way all through the economy, its part of why its hard to get a company to promote from within - they expect their employees to come from the outside with all the tool/skills/knowledge to hit the road running - even if they are at a significant disadvantage in actually understanding a companies operations. It used to be you could get an entry level job and company X, and expect a regular set of promotions up the chain, now, to get that promotion, you need to go work some place else almost.

YokoZar 13y ago
I'm not too convinced this is due to short term thinking: if you're a short-term investor you still benefit from a company using a long term strategy because you can just sell the stock.
WalterBright 13y ago
> This is about the myopic quarter to quarter focus on profits by the market, the stock market in the last 30 years has been increasingly unable to to focus on the long game - if it does generate income or profit by the next quarter, its rubbish. I've seen this sentiment about the market like, forever. Yes, I've been investing in the market for 30 years. But I seriously doubt that investors are so stupid. If they were pushing up stock prices based on quarterly results and the long game be damned, then where are all the smart investors shorting those companies? Are you making money on shorts? And, why are there companies like Amazon with enormous P/E's? Clearly, investors are playing the long game with them.
- Aloha 13y ago
  You sorta made my point for me. My argument is that the market wants quarter to quarter growth over stability. There are many industries that are stable, generate lots of revenue, are profitable, but do not generate high stock prices because of no growth, like: Truck Stops Utilities Tire Companies Banks Insurance My argument is before the mid 80's - the focus was on the dividend not on the stock price itself, IMO, buying and selling based on stock price, rather than earning disbursed to shareholders, is merely speculation, rather than investing.

blueskin_ 13y ago

It this means they stop ruining Windows, I'm all for it.

beloch 13y ago

One word: Idiots. Seriously, those investors are morons. MS has never been a a company that fits the adjective: "lean". MS is practically a post-secondary institution unto itself! MS' far-reaching speculative research is the stuff of legend, and far too infrequently translated into the commercial sphere. Anyone who thinks they should narrow their focus and ignore more of the fruits of their labor instead of less is an idiot.

higherpurpose 13y ago
Microsoft has never made a profit with Xbox. In fact, they've only lost billions of dollars on it, and the chance to recover them isactually smaller than it was for Xbox 360, not just because I think Sony has a stronger showing this time around (and at a lower price to boot), but because I don't think the new consoles have a life bigger than 5 years in them.
- uvTwitch 13y ago
  This is false, they broke even midway through the 360's lifespan and are now turning a profit both on it and the xbone.
jfoster 13y ago
Well, not necessarily idiots. I'm sure they understand the longer term value of those brands and products to Microsoft. Investors are not necessarily in it for the long-term, though. They might buy a substantial stake, pressure the CEO into cutting valuable (but currently loss-making) divisions, and be looking to sell that stake after a couple of really strong-looking quarters. None of that is good for Microsoft, but the investors are potentially behaving quite rationally. (if a bit destructively...)
- Joeri 13y ago
  This is the thing that is often glossed over when discussing what investors want out of a company. The primary goal of an investment is to provide a large return in a short timeframe, regardless of what happens after cashing out. Burning up a company's future to inflate short-term profits can be a perfectly fine strategy for an investor. You could argue that the last people who should have a say in how a company runs its affairs are the investors, because they are the most likely to make decisions that are bad for the company.

qq66 13y ago

Thank god they're investors and not CEOs.

CmonDev 13y ago
They are not even investors, rather short-term-price-fluctuation traders.

rottyguy 13y ago

With Amazon and Google finding some success in diversifying their offerings, one must posit if this is what companies need to do to remain competitive and sustain. Leaders lead!

venomsnake 13y ago

Well Microsoft got XBOX wrong two times in a row. So no surprises here. Only the first XBOX was good console IMO. XBone and 360 were disappointments [1]. Surface is also one of the products Microsoft almost got right - there was real interest on windows on ARM at the time. But full windows. And Bing - well its only advantage over google is the turned off content filter. [1] Owned 360 for 5 years, played 5 hours on it.

dclowd9901 13y ago
How can you say xbone is a disappointment? I have a jar of mayo that's been around longer than that device. Give it a year or two, sheesh.
pilif 13y ago
> [1] Owned 360 for 5 years, played 5 hours on it. so because YOU only played 5 hours on YOUR 360, the console was a failure? Let me counter your anecdote with one of my own: The XBOX was a disappointment and the 360 was a good console. Reason: I played much more on my 360 than the original. The 360 was around for a much longer time than the original and there were many more games made for the 360 than for the original. If you don't believe that to be enough, there were 24M original xboxes sold, compared to 80M xbox 360.
- venomsnake 13y ago
  The run of X360 was almost twice of the Xbox. Correct for that. Also PS2 shipped 150 million units by which metric the whole 7th gen was disappointment because PS3 and X360 managed to ship slightly more combined. But yes - 360 was a failure. We got stratification of the published, ballooning budgets, total homogenization of the games. Every abusive trick ever from publishers on the consoles, red ring of death, needlessly complicated online survives (the whole MS points crap), XBOX live gold subscriptions and the console barely broke even at best from every report I have ever read. The decision for the HDD to be optional was "brilliant". The first few revisions of the hardware were poorly made. Instead of the ugly but perfectly cool able and boring xbox we got something elegant, pretty, noisy and overheating.

andyjohnson0 13y ago

"Morfit is a 37-year-old activist investor whose employer, the private hedge fund ValueAct, acquired a 0.8 percent stake in Microsoft in August. That was enough to put Morfit on the board." Slightly OT, but how does owning < 1% of a company's shares qualify for a board seat? Can someone who knows about these things enlighten me?

lutusp 13y ago
> Slightly OT, but how does owning < 1% of a company's shares qualify for a board seat? Can someone who knows about these things enlighten me? That's easy to explain: 1. Corporate boards should show a fair representation of the largest stockholders. 2. For a board with 100 members, it should be apparent that anyone with more than 1% of the corporation's stock must be given a place on the board. But this only makes a point and isn't a typical board -- 100 members is unwieldy. 3. Another case is one in which the majority of the corporation stock is held by many small investors and there are only a few majority stockholders. In this case, someone holding more than an individual investor but less than the majority investors may still earn a place, even on a relatively small board. 4. Another way to describe this is to take the number of board seats and distribute them among those individuals who hold the largest stock holdings, in declining order. For example, let's say there are ten board positions, five majority stockholders and a pool of smaller investors with quickly declining stock percentages. In this case, a stockholder with a very small stake might acquire a position on the board simply by being counted among the ten largest stockholders.
yvoschaap2 13y ago
At 300 billion market cap .8% = 2.4 billion investment. It seems ValueAct demanded changes from the management and they could argue they represent the vision of also other (activist) shareholders. Read this article for details: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323324904579045373716627460 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732332490...

rdl 13y ago

I wonder if they could sell Xbox to Lenovo for $huge. I don't think consoles are going to do very well this time -- mobile gaming killed the market for 'people who will tolerate lower spec hardware because it's convenient', and IIRC the PS3/360 were better relative to $2k PCs when launched than the PS4/Xbone are today relative to $2k PCs. The PS3/360 have been pretty mediocre for years, so the PS4/Xbone are going to get mediocre in a couple of years, so there's a long period of ugh ahead. Media convergence is the only reason to keep the Xbone business, but if Microsoft focuses on Enterprise (or at least "work"), that doesn't matter, either.

adamnemecek 13y ago
I don't play games at all but saying that gamers moved to mobile games is beyond silly.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- CmonDev 13y ago
  There will be stronger separation between casual and hardcore when Oculus Rift is out. Mobile is something you play on the train.
- rdl 13y ago
  Current gamers didn't, but their kids did, reducing the demand for new consoles. I went the other way (back to PC gaming, had PS3/360; won't get PS4/Xbone until there's a platform exclusive I must have)

xbadxapple 13y ago

Well this is a cocky attitude. They have a bit of right, though. Bing is just downright horrendous, Xbox is a not-so-good tier compared to other consoles in the sector. They need some optimization with allocating resources and offering services.

pedalpete 13y ago

Killing Surface may be premature. As far as I can tell, Surface Pro 2 is currently out of stock basically everywhere. Windows RT, I'd be happy to call that one pretty much dead anyway. Unless they can figure out a way to get full windows apps running on ARM devices, I don't see the point. Intel chips are going to improve in performance and battery life to the point where they are nearly comparable with ARM (or at least to a point where it matters). Then, the argument would be mute and we won't be making a decision between RT and Full Windows. Bing, I'm not so sure. I actually quite like Bing, but I don't see where Microsoft is going to make a huge impact with it. XBox, I can't believe they're loosing money on it, particularly after the huge success of the kinect. Either way, it's Microsoft's ticket into the livingroom.

nobodysfool 13y ago
>Surface Pro 2 is currently out of stock basically everywhere Not really. http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/tablets/microsoft/surface/ http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/tablets/microsoft/surfac...

uvTwitch 13y ago

I don't think many would miss Bing, but killing off the Surface, Windows Phone, and especially the Xbox, to focus on being another Oracle? What a pair of fuckwits these moron 'investors' are! I can think of no better way to give a company like them a slow 10-20 year death. Somebody should fire these poison shareholders.

mark_l_watson 13y ago

I don't own a surface, but I think future version of the Surface might end up being a very good product, and thus profitable. I imagine the next version of Surface being 1/3 lighter, 1/3 less expensive, and I am likely to buy one, even though I don't even own a Windows device right now. Off topic: the new lighter iPads are awesome. A very light weight bluetooth keyboard cover that is designed by Apple and is extremely thin and light weight would potentially eat the Surface's lunch - for users who don't specifically need Windows applications.