5 ms·

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I feel like anyone who considers this a good idea isn't a sufficiently-Pythonic thinker to be writing Python anyway. Python isn't

by tsm 13y ago

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I feel like anyone who considers this a good idea isn't a sufficiently-Pythonic thinker to be writing Python anyway. Python isn't just a language--it's a culture, and one of that culture's core principles is that there should be one way to do it.

Pacabel 13y ago
One of the best things about Python is that there's comparatively little "culture", at least compared to Perl, Ruby or JavaScript. The culture/community that does exist is more oriented toward helping people achieve what they want to or need to get done, rather than smugly regurgitating alleged "best practices" (Ruby and JavaScript) or absurdity (Perl). Yes, there are the PEPs, but they're more about providing useful guidelines that can likely offer some benefit if followed, rather than dictating the "best" way of doing something. Avoiding the typical Python approaches may raise some eyebrows or cause some confusion, but basically never the visceral lashing that one would be likely to receive within the Ruby community, for example.
- skywhopper 13y ago
  Wow, now I really don't want to learn Python. (Psst, you have the most popular programming language. You can take off your persecution complex.)
  - billforsternz 13y ago
    I don't understand; You hate that Python is all about helping people get things done ? That repels you ?
    - skywhopper 13y ago
      What repels me is the defensiveness and the apparent need to criticize other language communities. I'm not interested in joining a cult.
      - Pacabel 13y ago
        Like many other people, I use Python, Ruby, JavaScript, Java, and several other languages on an ongoing basis. We don't really care about "communities" or "cultures" and whatnot. We just have work that we need to get done using those programming languages. This isn't about "defending the Python culture" or "attacking the Ruby community" or any crap like that. Having dealt with so many different communities over the years, the Python community is by far the best to deal with, from a practical standpoint. Whenever I've had a Python-related question, the members of that community have done their best to help me out with achieving what I want to do. This is very different from the typical response from the Ruby or JavaScript communities, where they'll consistently tell you that what you're doing is "wrong" or against their "best practices" of the hour. That's not the kind of "help" that we're looking for. Get all emotional about this if you want. That's your right. But the rest of us have pragmatic, real-world concerns. The Python community does an excellent delivering us with useful help when we need it. Certain other communities do not. Those are just the facts.
spaceborn 13y ago
There may be a culture, but Python is simply a tool. One doesn't need to be a "Pythonic thinker" to use that tool. I'm not saying this is the most /sensible/ idea/project, but I see nothing in particular wrong with it. Your conception of culture here sounds oppressive and stifling to me. Another commenter suggests the only reason to do something like this would be "emotional attachment"; all the huffing and puffing in these comments strikes me as exactly that, but in reverse.
skywhopper 13y ago
I'd been gradually warming up to the idea of getting over my distaste for Python's surface-level quirks and digging in and finally adding it to my repertoire, but this comment has made me reconsider.
lukeschlather 13y ago
I think your criticism would be valid if the braces were optional and tabs still worked, but this version of Python is still a Pythonic language. (Or at least, it's no less Pythonic than your standard Python.)
- lutusp 13y ago
  > I think your criticism would be valid if the braces were optional and tabs still worked ... Surely you didn't mean tabs? https://code.google.com/p/soc/wiki/PythonStyleGuide https://code.google.com/p/soc/wiki/PythonStyleGuide : "Indentation: 2 spaces (no tabs), differs from PEP8" PEP8 (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces): "Tabs or Spaces? ... Spaces are the preferred indentation method. ... Python 2 code indented with a mixture of tabs and spaces should be converted to using spaces exclusively."
  - dkuntz2 13y ago
    It's generally a given that people use the word `tab` to refer to both hard and soft tabs.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      Yes, and soft tabs are fiction. Prove me wrong -- show me a Python specification that tells us what "soft tabs" are and how they are to be used. Post the Unicode code point for a soft tab character.
  - lukeschlather 13y ago
    Of course not. My editor, like any proper editor, automatically inserts spaces when I hit tab.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > Of course not. My editor, like any proper editor, automatically inserts spaces when I hit tab. Which translates to "yes".

by tsm 13y ago

Pacabel 13y ago

One of the best things about Python is that there's comparatively little "culture", at least compared to Perl, Ruby or JavaScript. The culture/community that does exist is more oriented toward helping people achieve what they want to or need to get done, rather than smugly regurgitating alleged "best practices" (Ruby and JavaScript) or absurdity (Perl). Yes, there are the PEPs, but they're more about providing useful guidelines that can likely offer some benefit if followed, rather than dictating the "best" way of doing something. Avoiding the typical Python approaches may raise some eyebrows or cause some confusion, but basically never the visceral lashing that one would be likely to receive within the Ruby community, for example.

skywhopper 13y ago
Wow, now I really don't want to learn Python. (Psst, you have the most popular programming language. You can take off your persecution complex.)
- billforsternz 13y ago
  I don't understand; You hate that Python is all about helping people get things done ? That repels you ?
  - skywhopper 13y ago
    What repels me is the defensiveness and the apparent need to criticize other language communities. I'm not interested in joining a cult.
    - Pacabel 13y ago
      Like many other people, I use Python, Ruby, JavaScript, Java, and several other languages on an ongoing basis. We don't really care about "communities" or "cultures" and whatnot. We just have work that we need to get done using those programming languages. This isn't about "defending the Python culture" or "attacking the Ruby community" or any crap like that. Having dealt with so many different communities over the years, the Python community is by far the best to deal with, from a practical standpoint. Whenever I've had a Python-related question, the members of that community have done their best to help me out with achieving what I want to do. This is very different from the typical response from the Ruby or JavaScript communities, where they'll consistently tell you that what you're doing is "wrong" or against their "best practices" of the hour. That's not the kind of "help" that we're looking for. Get all emotional about this if you want. That's your right. But the rest of us have pragmatic, real-world concerns. The Python community does an excellent delivering us with useful help when we need it. Certain other communities do not. Those are just the facts.

spaceborn 13y ago

There may be a culture, but Python is simply a tool. One doesn't need to be a "Pythonic thinker" to use that tool. I'm not saying this is the most /sensible/ idea/project, but I see nothing in particular wrong with it. Your conception of culture here sounds oppressive and stifling to me. Another commenter suggests the only reason to do something like this would be "emotional attachment"; all the huffing and puffing in these comments strikes me as exactly that, but in reverse.

skywhopper 13y ago

I'd been gradually warming up to the idea of getting over my distaste for Python's surface-level quirks and digging in and finally adding it to my repertoire, but this comment has made me reconsider.

lukeschlather 13y ago

I think your criticism would be valid if the braces were optional and tabs still worked, but this version of Python is still a Pythonic language. (Or at least, it's no less Pythonic than your standard Python.)

lutusp 13y ago
> I think your criticism would be valid if the braces were optional and tabs still worked ... Surely you didn't mean tabs? https://code.google.com/p/soc/wiki/PythonStyleGuide https://code.google.com/p/soc/wiki/PythonStyleGuide : "Indentation: 2 spaces (no tabs), differs from PEP8" PEP8 (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces): "Tabs or Spaces? ... Spaces are the preferred indentation method. ... Python 2 code indented with a mixture of tabs and spaces should be converted to using spaces exclusively."
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  It's generally a given that people use the word `tab` to refer to both hard and soft tabs.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    Yes, and soft tabs are fiction. Prove me wrong -- show me a Python specification that tells us what "soft tabs" are and how they are to be used. Post the Unicode code point for a soft tab character.
- lukeschlather 13y ago
  Of course not. My editor, like any proper editor, automatically inserts spaces when I hit tab.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > Of course not. My editor, like any proper editor, automatically inserts spaces when I hit tab. Which translates to "yes".