7 ms·

Oooh, this was an icy stab right at the core. She's completely right: >Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed

by krstck 13y ago

Oooh, this was an icy stab right at the core. She's completely right: >Dump her in a situation that operates on different social scripts than she's accustomed to, full of people talking about a subject she doesn't yet understand. Then tell her the community is hostile toward women and therefore doesn't have enough of them, all while showing her off like a prize poodle so you can feel good about recruiting a females This explains, better than I ever could, why I've always felt weird about all of the attention on getting women into programming. As a kid, I loved programming. When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. Probably if I had known a single other kid/girl that liked computers like I did, I might have continued on that path and not been distracted for about 10 years.

marquis 13y ago
That's the reason why classes for girls (not necessarily primarily but directed towards) work so well. Being in a room full of men with few or no women in ANY circumstance is awkward unless you are top of your game.
- HedgeMage 13y ago
  Sure, it might be awkward at first for girls who don't have a lot of experience in mixed-gender environments. If it's a friendly mixed-gender environment, the awkwardness wears off pretty soon. I've watched it happen. On the other hand, "foo for women" events are high-pressure environments that put a spotlight on poor newbies. It's a way of saying "You aren't just here to learn something, you're representing women, you're here to prove something for all of us". It implies that the mainstream groups aren't safe or okay places for women to learn. Additionally, they prevent those newbie women from learning the social scripts and memes that will help them fit in with mainstream hacker culture (or even programmer culture), so they get to be total outsiders as juniors instead of as freshmen, which really sucks.
  - supersystem 13y ago
    I don't think anyone, regardless of gender, should be forced to "fit in with mainstream hacker culture".
    - Rylinks 13y ago
      Would you say the same about the mainstream culture in other fields, or is it hacker culture in particular?
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    I've actually found that quite a few of the attendees of these events are usually people who already (are trying to) fit in with mainstream hacker culture, but whom often experience similar kinds of challenges in doing so and enjoy being able to both openly discuss these things and not have to worry about them for a bit. Was that different at the events you visited?
- belorn 13y ago
  Any source for your claim? Is classes for girls better in producing hackers, ie, someone who is passionate about programming to the point of both work and hobby? I sincerely doubt it, but feel free to prove me wrong.
  - marquis 13y ago
    Hi, personal experience is my source and the fact that I come across very very very few other technical women in my field, and when I do they benefit from small, gender-balanced or single-gender classes. I think what works best for girls depends on their age - and there are a lot of studies out there showing that boys also do better in puberty in single-gender classes.
    - Crake 13y ago
      "Single-sex schools do not provide any social or educational benefits over coeducational programs within the public school system, according to a study by researchers at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Their findings dispel assertions from proponents of same-sex schools that boys and girls learn differently and must therefore be separated to reach their full potential. The team of psychologists examined all available research on single-sex education published within the past seven years, which included 184 studies comprising 1.6 million students from kindergarten to 12th grade in 21 different countries, and found no evidence to support proponents’ claims. In their study, which appeared Monday in Psychological Bulletin, a journal published by the American Psychological Association, the psychologists said that students who attended single-sex schools weren’t any better off than peers who attended coed programs in terms of self-esteem or performance in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) subjects." http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/5/study-single-sexeducationhasminimalbenefits.html http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/5/study-single-...
- Crake 13y ago
  >Being in a room full of men with few or no women in ANY circumstance is awkward unless you are top of your game. I've never really cared, whether I'm at the top or bottom of my game. Biological sex of the people around me is irrelevant--unless I'm going to a gay bar.
jseliger 13y ago
When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. When I was a teenager, coding or being technical in general wasn't cool either, and most of the people who were involved were or at least seemed insecure and embarrassed. Perhaps the climate in middle / high schools has changed since, but if not, we could also ask: what makes many boys persist in their uncool, embarrassing, low-ish status activity?
- krstck 13y ago
  > what makes many boys persist in their uncool, embarrassing, low-ish status activity? I've wondered this myself! Perhaps archetypes of nerdy boys that grow up to be successful and respected adults are/were more readily available? I still think of a stereotypical "nerdy girl" as being really into literature or history, as opposed to building computers.
  - auggierose 13y ago
    I like to quote "True Detective" here: Because we know what we want, and aren't afraid to be alone.
  - jaimebuelta 13y ago
    Because is something they like?
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Hard to say for sure, when I was in school I felt like I was banking on technology becoming cooler over time which does seem to be the case. There's also less pressure on men to settle down early. A man can more easily think "fuck it, I won't start dating until I'm 25 by which time I'll be successful, drive a nice car and be an eligible bachelor". With the whole biological clock issue women are often hoping to be married and starting a family by that age or risk being seen as the archetypal "cat lady".
  - deleted 13y ago
e12e 13y ago
I really love this article I came across a few years ago -- this is the kind of environment we should try to achieve again... sadly there aren't any technical hurdles to cross any more -- it's all hurdles we've created for ourselves (and our children...): http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc1/showpage.php?page=61 http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc1/showpage.php?page=61 [The Best of Creative Computing Volume 1 (published 1976): Learning About Smalltalk, Marian Goldeen] "My name is Marian Goldeen. I'm an eighth grade student at Jordan Junior High School in Palo Alto, California, and I would like to tell you about how I got started working with computers at Xerox and the class I taught. It all started in December, 1973 when I was in the seventh grade (...)"

by krstck 13y ago

marquis 13y ago

That's the reason why classes for girls (not necessarily primarily but directed towards) work so well. Being in a room full of men with few or no women in ANY circumstance is awkward unless you are top of your game.

HedgeMage 13y ago
Sure, it might be awkward at first for girls who don't have a lot of experience in mixed-gender environments. If it's a friendly mixed-gender environment, the awkwardness wears off pretty soon. I've watched it happen. On the other hand, "foo for women" events are high-pressure environments that put a spotlight on poor newbies. It's a way of saying "You aren't just here to learn something, you're representing women, you're here to prove something for all of us". It implies that the mainstream groups aren't safe or okay places for women to learn. Additionally, they prevent those newbie women from learning the social scripts and memes that will help them fit in with mainstream hacker culture (or even programmer culture), so they get to be total outsiders as juniors instead of as freshmen, which really sucks.
- supersystem 13y ago
  I don't think anyone, regardless of gender, should be forced to "fit in with mainstream hacker culture".
  - Rylinks 13y ago
    Would you say the same about the mainstream culture in other fields, or is it hacker culture in particular?
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  I've actually found that quite a few of the attendees of these events are usually people who already (are trying to) fit in with mainstream hacker culture, but whom often experience similar kinds of challenges in doing so and enjoy being able to both openly discuss these things and not have to worry about them for a bit. Was that different at the events you visited?
belorn 13y ago
Any source for your claim? Is classes for girls better in producing hackers, ie, someone who is passionate about programming to the point of both work and hobby? I sincerely doubt it, but feel free to prove me wrong.
- marquis 13y ago
  Hi, personal experience is my source and the fact that I come across very very very few other technical women in my field, and when I do they benefit from small, gender-balanced or single-gender classes. I think what works best for girls depends on their age - and there are a lot of studies out there showing that boys also do better in puberty in single-gender classes.
  - Crake 13y ago
    "Single-sex schools do not provide any social or educational benefits over coeducational programs within the public school system, according to a study by researchers at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Their findings dispel assertions from proponents of same-sex schools that boys and girls learn differently and must therefore be separated to reach their full potential. The team of psychologists examined all available research on single-sex education published within the past seven years, which included 184 studies comprising 1.6 million students from kindergarten to 12th grade in 21 different countries, and found no evidence to support proponents’ claims. In their study, which appeared Monday in Psychological Bulletin, a journal published by the American Psychological Association, the psychologists said that students who attended single-sex schools weren’t any better off than peers who attended coed programs in terms of self-esteem or performance in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) subjects." http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/5/study-single-sexeducationhasminimalbenefits.html http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/5/study-single-...
Crake 13y ago
>Being in a room full of men with few or no women in ANY circumstance is awkward unless you are top of your game. I've never really cared, whether I'm at the top or bottom of my game. Biological sex of the people around me is irrelevant--unless I'm going to a gay bar.

jseliger 13y ago

When I became a teenager, I got wind that it wasn't something "cool" and got spooked. For someone as insecure as I was, having a hobby that I couldn't really "explain" to normal people was embarrassing. When I was a teenager, coding or being technical in general wasn't cool either, and most of the people who were involved were or at least seemed insecure and embarrassed. Perhaps the climate in middle / high schools has changed since, but if not, we could also ask: what makes many boys persist in their uncool, embarrassing, low-ish status activity?

krstck 13y ago
> what makes many boys persist in their uncool, embarrassing, low-ish status activity? I've wondered this myself! Perhaps archetypes of nerdy boys that grow up to be successful and respected adults are/were more readily available? I still think of a stereotypical "nerdy girl" as being really into literature or history, as opposed to building computers.
- auggierose 13y ago
  I like to quote "True Detective" here: Because we know what we want, and aren't afraid to be alone.
- jaimebuelta 13y ago
  Because is something they like?
jiggy2011 13y ago
Hard to say for sure, when I was in school I felt like I was banking on technology becoming cooler over time which does seem to be the case. There's also less pressure on men to settle down early. A man can more easily think "fuck it, I won't start dating until I'm 25 by which time I'll be successful, drive a nice car and be an eligible bachelor". With the whole biological clock issue women are often hoping to be married and starting a family by that age or risk being seen as the archetypal "cat lady".
- deleted 13y ago

e12e 13y ago

I really love this article I came across a few years ago -- this is the kind of environment we should try to achieve again... sadly there aren't any technical hurdles to cross any more -- it's all hurdles we've created for ourselves (and our children...): http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc1/showpage.php?page=61 http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc1/showpage.php?page=61 [The Best of Creative Computing Volume 1 (published 1976): Learning About Smalltalk, Marian Goldeen] "My name is Marian Goldeen. I'm an eighth grade student at Jordan Junior High School in Palo Alto, California, and I would like to tell you about how I got started working with computers at Xerox and the class I taught. It all started in December, 1973 when I was in the seventh grade (...)"