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Mac Versus PC Debate Has Never Been Clearer

28 points by ExJournalist 17y ago

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Tichy 17y ago
Last time I looked almost all non-Mac high-end PCs suffered from "Klavierlack"-Syndrome. I don't know how it translates into english, but it is that cheesy shiny coating. There are competitors who can create good high end PCs, but at the moment they suffer from a severe case of bad taste. Maybe most producers being Asian doesn't help either - nothing against them, just the tastes seem to be different.
- r7000 17y ago
  Klavierlack is "piano lacquer". You see that in some high-end automotive advertising.. "black piano lacquer wood trim".
- gamble 17y ago
  Sony makes decent high-end hardware... and then cripples it with loads of pre-installed crapware.
  - cstejerean 17y ago
    I generally buy Mac laptops and build my desktop machines, but at the right price-to-hardware ratio I wouldn't mind buying a machine with Vista and pre-installed crapware, I would wipe it as soon as I got it.
    - gamble 17y ago
      Assuming you wanted to be legal, you'd either need to spend a lot of time extracting the crapware, or have another Windows license kicking around. Most restore disks reinstall the crapware.
      - Tichy 17y ago
        Another plus for Dell. Unfortunately they don't tend to have the most elegant notebooks.
- papersmith 17y ago
  Being Asian myself, I concur that we tend to have questionable tastes. It probably has something to do with the cultures going through an identity crisis. This is most pronounced in car designs. Japanese and Korean cars designs generally look like they are "trying too hard", especially in the recent years in their high-end models. Maybe they are going for the funky-factor of the ricers, I don't know. British, Italian, and French cars usually look the least desperate. German and American cars are somewhere in the middle. Just my opinion.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    My favorite notebook maker used to be Samsung (Korean I think), but unfortunately their latest line also has the piano lacquer problem. Also, all the makers have far too many options to choose from. Both seem like solvable problems to me, but perhaps they are doing well enough as it is?
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    "Being Asian myself, I concur that we tend to have questionable tastes. " Being Asian myself, I concur we have different tastes. ;-) Most Asian cultures(Japanese, Indian etc)have their own aesthetic sensibilities. I concur that they are different from the "default" western sense of style. I just don't think it is true Asians have "questionable" taste! NB: I am not getting into culture wars etc or claiming victimization etc, I just think that sentence is not true.
    - papersmith 17y ago
      I probably should've written a disclaimer as to indicate my opinion. :) To be more specific, perhaps I should've emphasized that "modern" Asian cultures have questionable tastes, which is in direct contrast to traditional Asian sensibilities. I feel that modern Asian cultures are too busy imitating what's trendy in the west. It doesn't help the fact that instability of the past century made people lose faith in their indigineous cultures, while the western culture has evolved quite a bit since to adapt to changes of the world, thus leaving a big gap to catch up. I'd venture that the vast portion of the old Asian cultures are appreciated now-a-days merely for their exotic aspects, even by Asian people themselves. Whatever is preserved for practical reasons don't always fit in a coherent manner, there are plenty of rough edges to work out. I guess a bad analogy would be that Asian culture is like Unix, Apple is Europe, Windows is USA, China is BSD, and Japan is Ubuntu. The kernel is the philosophy, command line is the traditional culture, GUI is the pop culture, and the internet is globalization. Windows eventually took over and became more accessible over time with its killer GUI apps. For the time being, Unix lacks the ecosystem to build killer GUI apps, so they created Wine to run Windows apps. There are also plenty of native Unix GUI apps that sprang up, but most are created in response to their existing commercial counterparts, and many of their GUIs are imitations. FreeBSD has been around for a while, went through several regime changes, and is still kinda authoritarian with its userland programs. Ubuntu is later to the game, has the most success in adapting to modern GUI needs, but there's still some distance to go to catch up to Apple and perhaps Windows. Even though Unix is weak in GUI stuff, it's strong as servers, especially since the internet became popular. Sorry about the silly analogy, perhaps I need to take a nap. :)
- rms 17y ago
  What's the best thing to do to make a high end PC look good? Make it out of carbon fiber?
  - Tichy 17y ago
    A lot of them looked fine before the piano lacquer abomination. Aluminum is classic, but other variants where OK, too (why not carbon fiber?). I guess there is also experimentation. Also go for simplicity, I suppose. No fake parts designed to look "high end" in a phony way (kind of like "spoilers" on cars). To me the utmost example of bad taste is the leather coating ASUS is going for in their latest creations. But then I don't like leather in general. Just try to remove as many superfluous parts and elements as possible I guess. Just as Apple does - battery covers are superfluous. Mouse buttons are superfluous. Multimedia buttons are superfluous. Shiny areas anywhere but on the display are superfluous. And so on... Important: large borders around the screen are superfluous and look cheap. I can't think of a situation where multiple colors would look good (ie notebook cover red, bottom black), but I am not a designer.
lutorm 17y ago
The Porsche/Camry analogy is slightly flawed, because it doesn't take into account the effect of OS adoption and app availability. It's more like the choice between a hydrogen Porsche and a gas Camry. In that case, even if Porsche are content to sell a few, high-margin vehicles, they will have to worry about whether the model is sustainable given that if customers can't find a place to fill it up, they're not going to buy one no matter how nice they are.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  But there are places to fill it up. A common sentiment I run into when I tell people that I use a Mac is that people seem to think they can't do the same things on a Mac that they already do on a PC. Hell, most people don't even know MS Office exists on the Mac. In fact, after using a Mac for 3 years now I have to say that for a lot of day-to-day tasks, Mac apps beat Windows apps hands down. FTP? Use Cyberduck, it's infinitely superior to any free FTP client on Windows. IM? Adium is classier than any of the all-in-one clients on Windows (including Pidgin). I can go on... The point is, whatever you used to do on Windows can all be done on a Mac (save for a few domain-specific things like drafting or gaming). And the difference is, Mac developers actually give a damn about UI, which is a lot more than can be said for most Windows apps. P.S. Whoever decided that unlabeled, nondescript, 16x16 icons lined up in multiple rows at the top of the screen is good for usability needs a serious reality check.
  - jerf 17y ago
    "Adium is classier than any of the all-in-one clients on Windows (including Pidgin)." Adium and Pidgin both use libpurple, the same IM backend. If you want to talk about design aesthetic differences between open source and the Mac ecosystem, it's probably the definitive example.
    - potatolicious 17y ago
      That's my point precisely - Adium doesn't do anything that Pidgin cannot, but the UI between the two apps is worlds apart. IMHO it's the classic example of the failing of open source - too much functionality, no way for the layman to get to them.
mrkurt 17y ago
Just so everyone knows, I sold 100% of the PCs in the >$25,001 market.
robotron 17y ago
Wow, if you actually look at the hardware is it really that high-end?
- jcromartie 17y ago
  From some standpoints, yes. The design and build quality of machines like the MacBook Pro certainly trumps anything available from commodity PC makers.
  - javanix 17y ago
    It certainly trumps something that sells for $600, but is the build quality all that much better than a comparably priced ThinkPad or one of Dell's new high-end machines? The only real hardware advantage that I can find which isn't available elsewhere is the nice, fully internal battery that the Pros come with now. You can get one that performs similarly from Lenovo, but it doesn't look as elegant.
    - Retric 17y ago
      In less than 3 years my sister's 1700$ dell lost 5 keys (she was typing on the rubber under the keys) and 15% of the screen stopped working (thin lines from top to bottom). She replaced it a few months ago with a 2400$ apple laptop. She did not need more speed, or memory just something that would survive constant use. PS: She did not have the free time to mail it back to be fixed, and waited for a break so she could migrate to the next machine. I suggested a new Dell every 18 months, but that was not worth the hassle. And worst case she can show up at the apple store and get it fixed while she waits.
      - cstejerean 17y ago
        Why did your sister need a $2400 apple laptop if not for the speed and memory? If you are in the US at least you shouldn't have to spend that much for a new Mac. The 13" MBP starts $1200 and you can get a 15.4" MBP starting at $1700 from Amazon, with free shipping and no sales tax (in the majority of states).
rythie 17y ago
I think it's pretty clear if you want something without the viruses/spyware and is less annoying you get a Mac, as long as you can afford it. If you are short for money you end up on a Windows PC. Or at least that is perception amongst the general public. I don't think Apple have any interest in selling something at lower price points, because like Sony, Porsche etc. their brand is of a better quality product which of course should cost more. SGI, Sun, HP all used to sell high end workstations at the top the market (~2-20x more than what Apple charged at the time) - that market got eaten by PCs when they couldn't differentiate anymore. Unlike those high end machines, Apple has no performance advantage over PCs. Apple's only real difference is the OS. Apple's emerging threat is Linux/Open Source, which has many of the same advantages OS X over Windows does and of course was good enough for Apple to take a kernel, browser and printing system from. Linux/Open Source doesn't have to be better than OS X - it just has to be better than Windows and good enough that people don't want to spend extra on a Mac. Edit: this is classic "The Innovator's Dilemma": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology
- mikecuesta 17y ago
  I don't think for a second that Linux/Open Source is an emerging threat to OS X, sorry.
  - whatusername 17y ago
    To be honest - as a relatively new Ubuntu user - and an occasional OSX user - trying to get stuff done on the mac is beginning to annoy me more and more. Apple make some fantastic software - the iLife suite is pretty awesome. That might be reason enough to buy one - (and the hardware design is typically good as well). But just looking at the OS - and what I use the system for on a day to day basis - and Apple's advantage in the OS space is a lot less than it used to be. (And snow leopard doesn't look like changing that from an end user perspective)
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    rythie said, "Apple's emerging threat is Linux/Open Source, because " [reasons] to which you (mikecuesta)replied "I don't think for a second that Linux/Open Source is an emerging threat to OS X, " with no rationale or logic to support that viewpoint. "I don't think X", without supporting reasons is an almost meaningless response in a discussion. I am surprised it got so many upvotes. Just imagine someone responded to you with "Oh yeah? I do think so" without providing any rationale. Your response could validate rythie's "classical innovator's dilemma" argument, since in a classic innovator's dilemma the proponents of the disrupted product never "think for a second" that the disrupting product is "an emerging threat" till it is too late.
anigbrowl 17y ago
"Things are more like they are today than they have ever been before." There are only two considerations, really: do you (or the end user you are helping) prefer OS X or Windows, and are your skills/available time competitive with the Apple hardware premium? The 'debate' consists of large numbers of people insisting that their answers to the foregoing questions are somehow 'objective'. They're not. If I won the lotto tomorrow I'd buy the most expensive G5 and install Windows 7 on it.
- philwelch 17y ago
  That'd be quite the trick, since the G5 was a PowerPC box that hasn't been sold for years, and Windows 7 only runs on x86.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    I are l33t hax0r. Seriously, silly me - I meant the top-end Mac Pro with the dual quads etc. I was thinking of the beautifully engineered case and internals, which I still associate with the g5.
unknownmat 17y ago
"...that’s why Microsoft’s recent Laptop Hunter commercials really never made a lot of sense. ... people who are shopping for computers where price is the key factor, were never going to buy Macs anyway..." It perplexes me that Apple products sell as well as they do. I find Apple's value proposition to be questionable. For example, compare an iPod to just about any comparable media player, or a Mac to a comparable PC (in terms of HW power). I think Microsoft is very smart to point this out, as I do not think this perception has reached the general public. Also, there's a line in the commercial like, "I guess I'm not cool enough to be a Mac person." A clever way for Microsoft to imply that Mac owners are paying extra for the Apple image. This is also an idea that I do not think has really reached the general public.
- jpierce420 17y ago
  I completely agree. If you notice, on basically any T.V. show you watch today, anyone with a computer on the show, the computer will be an Apple (mostly laptops). Same in movies as well. Somehow, Apple Mac's got branded as 'cool', and I guess 'cool' will cost you an extra $500+.
- roc 17y ago
  The difference: when my iphone's mic inexplicably died, the apple store just replaced the unit. I swung by a store, they confirmed the broken hardware, grabbed a new device, swapped the sim card and i went home and restored from my backup. it took 10 minutes in the store and 10 more at home. when my 360 died, microsoft left it up to their partner (best buy). who hassled me about their absurd return policy despite my having purchased their extended service plan that clearly covered the situation. after a frustrating experience that required forty-five minutes of my time and escalation past the first tier of management, i did get new hardware. I then got home and found out that the XBox Live content i'd purchased was tied to my old (now-dead) hardware. If i didn't have an active internet connection, it couldn't be used on the new hardware. Most times I'm connected, so it wasn't a -huge- deal -- but it still bit me in the ass a few times until Microsoft released their fix for the DRM situation (18 months later). To sum-up: the value Apple offers isn't in the hardware specs. It's in the single point of responsibility, excellent customer service and lack of bullshit. I don't know a single person who fits the straw man of 'buying apple to be cool'. Everyone I actually know who owns apple products switched out of sheer frustration with the Microsoft model of eighteen levels of indirection and blame game nonsense whenever anything goes wrong.
jpierce420 17y ago
I just don't get it. I promise I'm not flaming Apple anymore, for Christ's sake, I've never seen so many people whine and cry in my life just for saying a harsh word or two(or not even so harsh, really) about Apple. But all bullshit aside, I just don't understand. I can see the Porche-Camry analogy if the Mac was a better performing computer. The Porche is a sportscar, it has a nicer interior, its faster, has a high-end motor, and just generally a bunch of things that make it cost more. Where is all of that in a Mac? Line up a PC and a Mac with COMPARABLE hardware specs, and a Mac is no different/better (performance wise, here) than the PC, and often times the PC actually outperforms the Mac. Please someone explain this to me. This is no 'high-end' market here. You act like the Mac has twice the RAM, twice the cores, and twice the clock speed, and it simply doesn't. How about for me, the consumer - am I paying $400-500 more because the Mac 'looks' better (In which my opinion it doesn't, but then again who cares what the damn things look like - its a computer) ? I've gotten a ton of responses saying that 'the case/shell is stronger and more durable'. Ok, maybe so, but that justifies me shelling out another $500? Or 'it's made out of higher quality parts' - what parts? It was my understanding that Mac's have either Intel processors or PowerPC's. Intel is the most commonly used in PCs..so no 'better parts' there. Basically all hardware in both are compatible and can be used in both, and if not, they're very similar/comparable. Once again, I am NOT flaming Apple here - so don't start whining again. I seriously want someone to tell me why spending the extra money is worth it. How is the Mac a 'higher-end' computer? I don't want to hear differences in MacOS vs. Windows/Linux because you're never going to convince me there. You probably won't gain much ground with a software argument either, because most of that is made for both platforms and there is a crapload more free software available for the PC. I'm talking about performance wise, PC vs Mac with comparable hardware. What is my extra money going for? Why is it worth it?Why are people calling Apple's Mac a 'higher end' computer? Thanks. P.S. - My theory? The Mac is being labeled as a 'higher-end' computer simply because the price tag is higher :-) Seriously, that's all I can think of.
kaiserama 17y ago
I think the author spun his article with the concept that a Mac is 'better'. In my opinion the real point of the article should have been that Apple is branding their products as 'premium'. Just like anything in life just because someone has branded themselves as 'premium' certainly does not preclude the possibility there is something better out there. In fact I think Lenovo markets their laptops in a similar way by catering to the business user. It isn't to say Dell/HP don't make a products that can easily compete with a ThinkPad, it's just that when you think of a 'business' laptop Lenovo wants you to think of a ThinkPad. Having said that I own a ThinkPad W500 and a Macbook and think both have strong/weak points, but given a choice of only having one I would probably stick with the Macbook, simply because I can do anything I need to with it (a la bootcamp).
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etherael 17y ago
I'm a little shocked by the continued focus on aesthetics and form rather than purpose, especially from this particular audience. You guys are typically not the ignorant masses, who gives a damn what lacquer is used on your notebook, do you use it so you can sit back and stare longingly at it or so you can use the thing? Who cares what it looks like! I recently was given the opportunity as a reward from my employer to name my next notebook, it could be anything at all, I didn't have any set price limit, I specifically got asked to just pick whatever would be the "ultimate" in computing power for me. I had a look at the mbp lines, did a few enquiries on notebookforums, and ended up with http://www.p4laptops.com.au/main/D900F_P4laptops.pdf http://www.p4laptops.com.au/main/D900F_P4laptops.pdf It looks like a big, black laptop, the vast majority of reviews I could find on it spent about 50% of the article pointing out how it was not very pretty and size and other form factor related nonsense I didn't care about, then another 25% raving on about how heavy and loud it is, and then the last 25% of the article actually examining how the tool performs for it's intended purpose! Man I hate the world at times, you people are all f*cking crazy. It's like I bought a fork and spent all my time pointing out how it wasn't very well chromed and I didn't like the way it sat in my hand, and then just toward the end there mentioned "but hell, it's really good for picking up food" Eugh.

28 points by ExJournalist 17y ago

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Tichy 17y ago

Last time I looked almost all non-Mac high-end PCs suffered from "Klavierlack"-Syndrome. I don't know how it translates into english, but it is that cheesy shiny coating. There are competitors who can create good high end PCs, but at the moment they suffer from a severe case of bad taste. Maybe most producers being Asian doesn't help either - nothing against them, just the tastes seem to be different.

r7000 17y ago
Klavierlack is "piano lacquer". You see that in some high-end automotive advertising.. "black piano lacquer wood trim".
gamble 17y ago
Sony makes decent high-end hardware... and then cripples it with loads of pre-installed crapware.
- cstejerean 17y ago
  I generally buy Mac laptops and build my desktop machines, but at the right price-to-hardware ratio I wouldn't mind buying a machine with Vista and pre-installed crapware, I would wipe it as soon as I got it.
  - gamble 17y ago
    Assuming you wanted to be legal, you'd either need to spend a lot of time extracting the crapware, or have another Windows license kicking around. Most restore disks reinstall the crapware.
    - Tichy 17y ago
      Another plus for Dell. Unfortunately they don't tend to have the most elegant notebooks.
papersmith 17y ago
Being Asian myself, I concur that we tend to have questionable tastes. It probably has something to do with the cultures going through an identity crisis. This is most pronounced in car designs. Japanese and Korean cars designs generally look like they are "trying too hard", especially in the recent years in their high-end models. Maybe they are going for the funky-factor of the ricers, I don't know. British, Italian, and French cars usually look the least desperate. German and American cars are somewhere in the middle. Just my opinion.
- Tichy 17y ago
  My favorite notebook maker used to be Samsung (Korean I think), but unfortunately their latest line also has the piano lacquer problem. Also, all the makers have far too many options to choose from. Both seem like solvable problems to me, but perhaps they are doing well enough as it is?
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  "Being Asian myself, I concur that we tend to have questionable tastes. " Being Asian myself, I concur we have different tastes. ;-) Most Asian cultures(Japanese, Indian etc)have their own aesthetic sensibilities. I concur that they are different from the "default" western sense of style. I just don't think it is true Asians have "questionable" taste! NB: I am not getting into culture wars etc or claiming victimization etc, I just think that sentence is not true.
  - papersmith 17y ago
    I probably should've written a disclaimer as to indicate my opinion. :) To be more specific, perhaps I should've emphasized that "modern" Asian cultures have questionable tastes, which is in direct contrast to traditional Asian sensibilities. I feel that modern Asian cultures are too busy imitating what's trendy in the west. It doesn't help the fact that instability of the past century made people lose faith in their indigineous cultures, while the western culture has evolved quite a bit since to adapt to changes of the world, thus leaving a big gap to catch up. I'd venture that the vast portion of the old Asian cultures are appreciated now-a-days merely for their exotic aspects, even by Asian people themselves. Whatever is preserved for practical reasons don't always fit in a coherent manner, there are plenty of rough edges to work out. I guess a bad analogy would be that Asian culture is like Unix, Apple is Europe, Windows is USA, China is BSD, and Japan is Ubuntu. The kernel is the philosophy, command line is the traditional culture, GUI is the pop culture, and the internet is globalization. Windows eventually took over and became more accessible over time with its killer GUI apps. For the time being, Unix lacks the ecosystem to build killer GUI apps, so they created Wine to run Windows apps. There are also plenty of native Unix GUI apps that sprang up, but most are created in response to their existing commercial counterparts, and many of their GUIs are imitations. FreeBSD has been around for a while, went through several regime changes, and is still kinda authoritarian with its userland programs. Ubuntu is later to the game, has the most success in adapting to modern GUI needs, but there's still some distance to go to catch up to Apple and perhaps Windows. Even though Unix is weak in GUI stuff, it's strong as servers, especially since the internet became popular. Sorry about the silly analogy, perhaps I need to take a nap. :)
rms 17y ago
What's the best thing to do to make a high end PC look good? Make it out of carbon fiber?
- Tichy 17y ago
  A lot of them looked fine before the piano lacquer abomination. Aluminum is classic, but other variants where OK, too (why not carbon fiber?). I guess there is also experimentation. Also go for simplicity, I suppose. No fake parts designed to look "high end" in a phony way (kind of like "spoilers" on cars). To me the utmost example of bad taste is the leather coating ASUS is going for in their latest creations. But then I don't like leather in general. Just try to remove as many superfluous parts and elements as possible I guess. Just as Apple does - battery covers are superfluous. Mouse buttons are superfluous. Multimedia buttons are superfluous. Shiny areas anywhere but on the display are superfluous. And so on... Important: large borders around the screen are superfluous and look cheap. I can't think of a situation where multiple colors would look good (ie notebook cover red, bottom black), but I am not a designer.

lutorm 17y ago

The Porsche/Camry analogy is slightly flawed, because it doesn't take into account the effect of OS adoption and app availability. It's more like the choice between a hydrogen Porsche and a gas Camry. In that case, even if Porsche are content to sell a few, high-margin vehicles, they will have to worry about whether the model is sustainable given that if customers can't find a place to fill it up, they're not going to buy one no matter how nice they are.

potatolicious 17y ago
But there are places to fill it up. A common sentiment I run into when I tell people that I use a Mac is that people seem to think they can't do the same things on a Mac that they already do on a PC. Hell, most people don't even know MS Office exists on the Mac. In fact, after using a Mac for 3 years now I have to say that for a lot of day-to-day tasks, Mac apps beat Windows apps hands down. FTP? Use Cyberduck, it's infinitely superior to any free FTP client on Windows. IM? Adium is classier than any of the all-in-one clients on Windows (including Pidgin). I can go on... The point is, whatever you used to do on Windows can all be done on a Mac (save for a few domain-specific things like drafting or gaming). And the difference is, Mac developers actually give a damn about UI, which is a lot more than can be said for most Windows apps. P.S. Whoever decided that unlabeled, nondescript, 16x16 icons lined up in multiple rows at the top of the screen is good for usability needs a serious reality check.
- jerf 17y ago
  "Adium is classier than any of the all-in-one clients on Windows (including Pidgin)." Adium and Pidgin both use libpurple, the same IM backend. If you want to talk about design aesthetic differences between open source and the Mac ecosystem, it's probably the definitive example.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    That's my point precisely - Adium doesn't do anything that Pidgin cannot, but the UI between the two apps is worlds apart. IMHO it's the classic example of the failing of open source - too much functionality, no way for the layman to get to them.

mrkurt 17y ago

Just so everyone knows, I sold 100% of the PCs in the >$25,001 market.

robotron 17y ago

Wow, if you actually look at the hardware is it really that high-end?

jcromartie 17y ago
From some standpoints, yes. The design and build quality of machines like the MacBook Pro certainly trumps anything available from commodity PC makers.
- javanix 17y ago
  It certainly trumps something that sells for $600, but is the build quality all that much better than a comparably priced ThinkPad or one of Dell's new high-end machines? The only real hardware advantage that I can find which isn't available elsewhere is the nice, fully internal battery that the Pros come with now. You can get one that performs similarly from Lenovo, but it doesn't look as elegant.
  - Retric 17y ago
    In less than 3 years my sister's 1700$ dell lost 5 keys (she was typing on the rubber under the keys) and 15% of the screen stopped working (thin lines from top to bottom). She replaced it a few months ago with a 2400$ apple laptop. She did not need more speed, or memory just something that would survive constant use. PS: She did not have the free time to mail it back to be fixed, and waited for a break so she could migrate to the next machine. I suggested a new Dell every 18 months, but that was not worth the hassle. And worst case she can show up at the apple store and get it fixed while she waits.
    - cstejerean 17y ago
      Why did your sister need a $2400 apple laptop if not for the speed and memory? If you are in the US at least you shouldn't have to spend that much for a new Mac. The 13" MBP starts $1200 and you can get a 15.4" MBP starting at $1700 from Amazon, with free shipping and no sales tax (in the majority of states).

rythie 17y ago

I think it's pretty clear if you want something without the viruses/spyware and is less annoying you get a Mac, as long as you can afford it. If you are short for money you end up on a Windows PC. Or at least that is perception amongst the general public. I don't think Apple have any interest in selling something at lower price points, because like Sony, Porsche etc. their brand is of a better quality product which of course should cost more. SGI, Sun, HP all used to sell high end workstations at the top the market (~2-20x more than what Apple charged at the time) - that market got eaten by PCs when they couldn't differentiate anymore. Unlike those high end machines, Apple has no performance advantage over PCs. Apple's only real difference is the OS. Apple's emerging threat is Linux/Open Source, which has many of the same advantages OS X over Windows does and of course was good enough for Apple to take a kernel, browser and printing system from. Linux/Open Source doesn't have to be better than OS X - it just has to be better than Windows and good enough that people don't want to spend extra on a Mac. Edit: this is classic "The Innovator's Dilemma": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology

mikecuesta 17y ago
I don't think for a second that Linux/Open Source is an emerging threat to OS X, sorry.
- whatusername 17y ago
  To be honest - as a relatively new Ubuntu user - and an occasional OSX user - trying to get stuff done on the mac is beginning to annoy me more and more. Apple make some fantastic software - the iLife suite is pretty awesome. That might be reason enough to buy one - (and the hardware design is typically good as well). But just looking at the OS - and what I use the system for on a day to day basis - and Apple's advantage in the OS space is a lot less than it used to be. (And snow leopard doesn't look like changing that from an end user perspective)
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  rythie said, "Apple's emerging threat is Linux/Open Source, because " [reasons] to which you (mikecuesta)replied "I don't think for a second that Linux/Open Source is an emerging threat to OS X, " with no rationale or logic to support that viewpoint. "I don't think X", without supporting reasons is an almost meaningless response in a discussion. I am surprised it got so many upvotes. Just imagine someone responded to you with "Oh yeah? I do think so" without providing any rationale. Your response could validate rythie's "classical innovator's dilemma" argument, since in a classic innovator's dilemma the proponents of the disrupted product never "think for a second" that the disrupting product is "an emerging threat" till it is too late.

anigbrowl 17y ago

"Things are more like they are today than they have ever been before." There are only two considerations, really: do you (or the end user you are helping) prefer OS X or Windows, and are your skills/available time competitive with the Apple hardware premium? The 'debate' consists of large numbers of people insisting that their answers to the foregoing questions are somehow 'objective'. They're not. If I won the lotto tomorrow I'd buy the most expensive G5 and install Windows 7 on it.

philwelch 17y ago
That'd be quite the trick, since the G5 was a PowerPC box that hasn't been sold for years, and Windows 7 only runs on x86.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  I are l33t hax0r. Seriously, silly me - I meant the top-end Mac Pro with the dual quads etc. I was thinking of the beautifully engineered case and internals, which I still associate with the g5.

unknownmat 17y ago

"...that’s why Microsoft’s recent Laptop Hunter commercials really never made a lot of sense. ... people who are shopping for computers where price is the key factor, were never going to buy Macs anyway..." It perplexes me that Apple products sell as well as they do. I find Apple's value proposition to be questionable. For example, compare an iPod to just about any comparable media player, or a Mac to a comparable PC (in terms of HW power). I think Microsoft is very smart to point this out, as I do not think this perception has reached the general public. Also, there's a line in the commercial like, "I guess I'm not cool enough to be a Mac person." A clever way for Microsoft to imply that Mac owners are paying extra for the Apple image. This is also an idea that I do not think has really reached the general public.

jpierce420 17y ago
I completely agree. If you notice, on basically any T.V. show you watch today, anyone with a computer on the show, the computer will be an Apple (mostly laptops). Same in movies as well. Somehow, Apple Mac's got branded as 'cool', and I guess 'cool' will cost you an extra $500+.
roc 17y ago
The difference: when my iphone's mic inexplicably died, the apple store just replaced the unit. I swung by a store, they confirmed the broken hardware, grabbed a new device, swapped the sim card and i went home and restored from my backup. it took 10 minutes in the store and 10 more at home. when my 360 died, microsoft left it up to their partner (best buy). who hassled me about their absurd return policy despite my having purchased their extended service plan that clearly covered the situation. after a frustrating experience that required forty-five minutes of my time and escalation past the first tier of management, i did get new hardware. I then got home and found out that the XBox Live content i'd purchased was tied to my old (now-dead) hardware. If i didn't have an active internet connection, it couldn't be used on the new hardware. Most times I'm connected, so it wasn't a -huge- deal -- but it still bit me in the ass a few times until Microsoft released their fix for the DRM situation (18 months later). To sum-up: the value Apple offers isn't in the hardware specs. It's in the single point of responsibility, excellent customer service and lack of bullshit. I don't know a single person who fits the straw man of 'buying apple to be cool'. Everyone I actually know who owns apple products switched out of sheer frustration with the Microsoft model of eighteen levels of indirection and blame game nonsense whenever anything goes wrong.

jpierce420 17y ago

I just don't get it. I promise I'm not flaming Apple anymore, for Christ's sake, I've never seen so many people whine and cry in my life just for saying a harsh word or two(or not even so harsh, really) about Apple. But all bullshit aside, I just don't understand. I can see the Porche-Camry analogy if the Mac was a better performing computer. The Porche is a sportscar, it has a nicer interior, its faster, has a high-end motor, and just generally a bunch of things that make it cost more. Where is all of that in a Mac? Line up a PC and a Mac with COMPARABLE hardware specs, and a Mac is no different/better (performance wise, here) than the PC, and often times the PC actually outperforms the Mac. Please someone explain this to me. This is no 'high-end' market here. You act like the Mac has twice the RAM, twice the cores, and twice the clock speed, and it simply doesn't. How about for me, the consumer - am I paying $400-500 more because the Mac 'looks' better (In which my opinion it doesn't, but then again who cares what the damn things look like - its a computer) ? I've gotten a ton of responses saying that 'the case/shell is stronger and more durable'. Ok, maybe so, but that justifies me shelling out another $500? Or 'it's made out of higher quality parts' - what parts? It was my understanding that Mac's have either Intel processors or PowerPC's. Intel is the most commonly used in PCs..so no 'better parts' there. Basically all hardware in both are compatible and can be used in both, and if not, they're very similar/comparable. Once again, I am NOT flaming Apple here - so don't start whining again. I seriously want someone to tell me why spending the extra money is worth it. How is the Mac a 'higher-end' computer? I don't want to hear differences in MacOS vs. Windows/Linux because you're never going to convince me there. You probably won't gain much ground with a software argument either, because most of that is made for both platforms and there is a crapload more free software available for the PC. I'm talking about performance wise, PC vs Mac with comparable hardware. What is my extra money going for? Why is it worth it?Why are people calling Apple's Mac a 'higher end' computer? Thanks. P.S. - My theory? The Mac is being labeled as a 'higher-end' computer simply because the price tag is higher :-) Seriously, that's all I can think of.

kaiserama 17y ago

I think the author spun his article with the concept that a Mac is 'better'. In my opinion the real point of the article should have been that Apple is branding their products as 'premium'. Just like anything in life just because someone has branded themselves as 'premium' certainly does not preclude the possibility there is something better out there. In fact I think Lenovo markets their laptops in a similar way by catering to the business user. It isn't to say Dell/HP don't make a products that can easily compete with a ThinkPad, it's just that when you think of a 'business' laptop Lenovo wants you to think of a ThinkPad. Having said that I own a ThinkPad W500 and a Macbook and think both have strong/weak points, but given a choice of only having one I would probably stick with the Macbook, simply because I can do anything I need to with it (a la bootcamp).

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etherael 17y ago

I'm a little shocked by the continued focus on aesthetics and form rather than purpose, especially from this particular audience. You guys are typically not the ignorant masses, who gives a damn what lacquer is used on your notebook, do you use it so you can sit back and stare longingly at it or so you can use the thing? Who cares what it looks like! I recently was given the opportunity as a reward from my employer to name my next notebook, it could be anything at all, I didn't have any set price limit, I specifically got asked to just pick whatever would be the "ultimate" in computing power for me. I had a look at the mbp lines, did a few enquiries on notebookforums, and ended up with http://www.p4laptops.com.au/main/D900F_P4laptops.pdf http://www.p4laptops.com.au/main/D900F_P4laptops.pdf It looks like a big, black laptop, the vast majority of reviews I could find on it spent about 50% of the article pointing out how it was not very pretty and size and other form factor related nonsense I didn't care about, then another 25% raving on about how heavy and loud it is, and then the last 25% of the article actually examining how the tool performs for it's intended purpose! Man I hate the world at times, you people are all f*cking crazy. It's like I bought a fork and spent all my time pointing out how it wasn't very well chromed and I didn't like the way it sat in my hand, and then just toward the end there mentioned "but hell, it's really good for picking up food" Eugh.