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Taking out the trash as a manly activity made me giggle. To be serious, I see the problem like this: we don't understand what should men be like anymore. We h

Taking out the trash as a manly activity made me giggle. To be serious, I see the problem like this: we don't understand what should men be like anymore. We have at least two viable role models for women: girly woman and equal breadwinner woman. Both attractive as you can see. But we have no viable role model for men. Egalitarian man loses sexual attractivity and "manly man" is a dick who doesn't do his fair share. As a programmer I spend the whole day sitting in a chair and clicking my mouse (keyboard tapping from time to time). Is that manly? I don't know.

Dewie 13y ago
> As a programmer I spend the whole day sitting in a chair and clicking my mouse (keyboard tapping from time to time). Is that manly? I don't know. I certainly don't feel like less of a man for doing it.
BadassFractal 13y ago
I really enjoyed "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover, it does a really good job of covering this very topic and providing the reader with a plan for how to fix the situation.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  Is there a short tl;dr? I think I know what to expect given the title however...
  - Einstalbert 13y ago
    I believe the TL;DR is simply, live for your own goals and health first and then help others after, instead of trying to conform to some idea of a chivalrous person. It isn't some strange P.U.A. take on the "friendzone" issue, either. I think a lot of people are turned away from the book because of its title and connotations. I think that was a clever move on the author's point, to be honest. So from what I understand, it's more of a self-help/self-confidence book than anything.
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      What if I don't have any grandiose goals? I'm a simple person who likes to come home and be friendly with my significant other and occasionally get laid. Also perspective is different for people in healthy relationship. We don't have a word friendzone mean anything.
      - BadassFractal 13y ago
        The book is almost completely about regular joes in regular relationships not getting what they want out of them, and consequently out of life. It's not about wannabe Casanovas trying to break world records of number of lays. There's plenty of literature on that subject, but all of it deep down boils down to simply regaining masculine confidence and learning how to be a healthy male in a society where men are brought up and educated by women.
Einstalbert 13y ago
Some would argue that your programming position is too manly, that the programming field itself is too insulated with the male gender and that it should be seen as less of a boy's club and more of an equal ground for all. Weird, when you think about it. Clicking and typing. I suppose there's some rhetoric about "X is better at math than Y and programming is based on math" but at the end of the day it just seems like bologna. And it doesn't address any insecurities you may have as an individual who is also a man. My solution, though, as a man is to simply not care about being a man. I'm a person. I've got all the skills of all genders because I believe all skills are, unto themselves, genderless. Mannerisms, fashion, hair-styles, etc. can follow as well but really, they don't bug me. I've got other interests in mind. I think we, as a society of computer users and consumers, have all these other worlds to fancy ourselves with nowadays. Sometimes I catch myself in the mirror and have to realize I am not just some running narrative but a person with "roles" and "definitions" It can be a bit jarring. Still, that passes and I'm back to being me, my little identity, not caring about gender roles and other hang-ups like that. I hope some day that everyone can be happy being themselves and not have to question "What does it mean to be X, and how do I follow that rulebook?" Instead we should ask, "What does it mean to be me?"
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  "a boy's club" My concern with programming as a field that it's neither equal nor manly. It might be a boy's club but consisting of boys who're "not getting any". A lot of boys' rude talks just mask them being afraid of actually interacting with women, you know. WRT bologna: I have a colleague who is like two meter tall and very big. He could easily smith horseshoes on but what he actually does is programming: click and type. And he's pretty good at that, too. This is a bit comical. "as a man is to simply not care about being a man" I don't think this will work sexuality-wise. My bottom line: male sexuality becomes more and more tricky and real men (who are pretty simple and straight creatures after all) fall short of it.
  - Einstalbert 13y ago
    I'm glad you have concerns about programming as a field and I feel as though they are valid. It's not my fight, though, so I wish you luck. I agree it isn't equal, in many definitions of the word, but I wouldn't necessarily associate it with manly or womanly in terms of sexuality/identity. It's simply a field. A field that has, up until now, been primarily men and perhaps even primarily negative men and perhaps, again, men who are negative towards women because they are insecure about it. I think it says more about them than the field, but I could be wrong. I still stand by the thought that programming is inherently nothing other than a field, ripe for societies to use or abuse as they will. I could say the same about any field, teaching children I guess is the opposite at least in terms of number by gender. Not sure what the large, burly man colleague of yours has to do with my point, though. He could be a four foot tall waif and I wouldn't think any differently of the field. I work with many said waifs and I make no distinction. Sexuality, as I've found, can be fluid even within the boundaries of something like being straight. Your bottom line is interesting, but mine is more or less, "Don't feel bad about falling short of something you have complete control of." There's no reason to feel as though you need to live up to some definition of sexuality when it involves identity. Carve your own identity. It isn't easy, and it isn't straightforward, but I trust humans to be more than simple creatures.
__pThrow 13y ago
It certainly doesn't seem to follow that "manly man who takes out the trash and fixes the car, roof, and does the lawn" has to be a dick in any manner as you put it. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/14/men-women-work-time/1983271/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/14/men-wom... reports that men spend 10 more hours than women doing paid work at work while women spend six more hours than men doing household work. That's not being a dick either, and is considered manly by many.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  Imagine man doing same amount of paid work* as his woman, and their home not having any car, roof and lawn. What would the manly man do? Lay on coach and drink beers? * actual pay may differ both ways but that's not where we look when comparing effort.
  - __pThrow 13y ago
    What someone does at home is probably limited by available time, and not limited by lack of things to do. Given what you've stated, I would hope the manly man would build them a roof for their home. I still don't see any requirement or suggestion that being manly somehow implies dickish behavior at home or with his partner.
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      When all you have is 35 m^2 (400 sq ft) flat there is a simple limit on amount of manly things you can do there. Once everything works, no more drilling, repairing or building is necessary. But house chores are still unlimited, to be repeated every week.
      - __pThrow 13y ago
        Um, household chores are not unlimited, and there are many that are considered manly, and still, still, you don't respond to my repeated statement, nothing about doing manly chores, or being manly necessitates being a dick.
aaronem 13y ago
> "manly man" is a dick who doesn't do his fair share Oh? My wife, back when I had one, never seemed interested in an egalitarian split for chores like, say, replacing the car's serpentine belt and tensioner, or sorting out the electrical fault that'd stopped the taillights working -- or, for that matter, taking out the garbage. (Which, incidentally, I gather from empirical evidence does count as a "manly activity", presumably because garbage is often heavy and occasionally malodorous.) So also for yardwork and most repairs to the domicile; in general, if the job seemed likely to involve sweating, swearing, or a risk of ending up bleeding, the job was mine, and the egalitarian split business applied only to the rest. Which got galling after a while; I don't mind mowing, weeding, edging, and sweeping, or spending six hours getting filthy with my arm jammed to the elbow up the ass end of a car engine, but when I've been doing that all day, and have finally finished up and got a shower, a beer, and a piece of the couch, I don't give a damn if it's my turn to cook -- and nor should I, because I've done my fair share. > We have at least two viable role models for women: girly woman and equal breadwinner woman. I'm not sure about that. I've known a lot of people whose marriages involved what you call an "equal breadwinner woman". Most of those marriages have failed. While I've known rather fewer people whose marriages have involved men and women who more closely followed what the modern age pleases itself to regard as outdated, patriarchal, oppressively stereotypical gender roles, almost all of those whom I do know are still married, and indeed many have been for longer than I've been alive. Causation is always a tricky beast to corner, but at the very least there's a strong correlation there, and I tend to think there's a reason for that. (I'd also note, parenthetically, that the men I've known who've been married to your "equal breadwinner women" haven't been men I've found particularly worthy of respect, nor for the most part have I had the impression they had much respect for themselves. The women themselves tend to be lovely people, if lonely, but their husbands have been no prizes, which does a lot to explain the high divorce rate I've observed among them.) > As a programmer I spend the whole day sitting in a chair and clicking my mouse (keyboard tapping from time to time). Is that manly? I don't know. No, it's not, and I say that as one who does likewise. (Except mostly with his hands on the keyboard -- what kind of programming do you do that you touch it only rarely?)
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  "replacing the car's serpentine belt and tensioner, or sorting out the electrical fault that'd stopped the taillights working" [I don't have a car.] The problem is, once your home is up and running there's not much for you to do, but "unmanly" house chores form a never-ending stream. "Men work" scale (do it good once, it's good for a few years), but "women work" doesn't (wipe the floor today, still needs to be done again in a week). "the men I've known who've been married to your "equal breadwinner women" haven't been men I've found particularly worthy of respect" Well, most people are a kludge. We tend to have higher expectations for men for some reason, but at the end of day we are still human, flawed and all. Should find a solution that works for almost everybody. "what kind of programming do you do that you touch it only rarely?" The one when you "fly" your product most of the time as a pilot and only occasionally modify it as a developer.
adventured 13y ago
This is pretty simple. Manly man that does his fair share is the proper combination. I knew a lot of men that properly combined those two aspects growing up, they were excellent role models. I have plenty of friends that fit that bill today in their marriages. I don't know a married couple that doesn't complain about sex however. I think that's a problem of how invigorating can the same thing be after 10 or 20 years. It's a life challenge across the board to keep any long term relationship sharp, I'm not sure why we expect sex to be different.
sliverstorm 13y ago
Taking out the trash as a manly activity made me giggle. Well, the scene in Mad Men of Draper assembling the play house comes to mind. I'd bet many activities could be seen as manly, as long as the guy is well-muscled, in a thin shirt, and the activity requires muscle.

Dewie 13y ago

> As a programmer I spend the whole day sitting in a chair and clicking my mouse (keyboard tapping from time to time). Is that manly? I don't know. I certainly don't feel like less of a man for doing it.

BadassFractal 13y ago

I really enjoyed "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover, it does a really good job of covering this very topic and providing the reader with a plan for how to fix the situation.

guard-of-terra 13y ago
Is there a short tl;dr? I think I know what to expect given the title however...
- Einstalbert 13y ago
  I believe the TL;DR is simply, live for your own goals and health first and then help others after, instead of trying to conform to some idea of a chivalrous person. It isn't some strange P.U.A. take on the "friendzone" issue, either. I think a lot of people are turned away from the book because of its title and connotations. I think that was a clever move on the author's point, to be honest. So from what I understand, it's more of a self-help/self-confidence book than anything.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    What if I don't have any grandiose goals? I'm a simple person who likes to come home and be friendly with my significant other and occasionally get laid. Also perspective is different for people in healthy relationship. We don't have a word friendzone mean anything.
    - BadassFractal 13y ago
      The book is almost completely about regular joes in regular relationships not getting what they want out of them, and consequently out of life. It's not about wannabe Casanovas trying to break world records of number of lays. There's plenty of literature on that subject, but all of it deep down boils down to simply regaining masculine confidence and learning how to be a healthy male in a society where men are brought up and educated by women.

Einstalbert 13y ago

Some would argue that your programming position is too manly, that the programming field itself is too insulated with the male gender and that it should be seen as less of a boy's club and more of an equal ground for all. Weird, when you think about it. Clicking and typing. I suppose there's some rhetoric about "X is better at math than Y and programming is based on math" but at the end of the day it just seems like bologna. And it doesn't address any insecurities you may have as an individual who is also a man. My solution, though, as a man is to simply not care about being a man. I'm a person. I've got all the skills of all genders because I believe all skills are, unto themselves, genderless. Mannerisms, fashion, hair-styles, etc. can follow as well but really, they don't bug me. I've got other interests in mind. I think we, as a society of computer users and consumers, have all these other worlds to fancy ourselves with nowadays. Sometimes I catch myself in the mirror and have to realize I am not just some running narrative but a person with "roles" and "definitions" It can be a bit jarring. Still, that passes and I'm back to being me, my little identity, not caring about gender roles and other hang-ups like that. I hope some day that everyone can be happy being themselves and not have to question "What does it mean to be X, and how do I follow that rulebook?" Instead we should ask, "What does it mean to be me?"

guard-of-terra 13y ago
"a boy's club" My concern with programming as a field that it's neither equal nor manly. It might be a boy's club but consisting of boys who're "not getting any". A lot of boys' rude talks just mask them being afraid of actually interacting with women, you know. WRT bologna: I have a colleague who is like two meter tall and very big. He could easily smith horseshoes on but what he actually does is programming: click and type. And he's pretty good at that, too. This is a bit comical. "as a man is to simply not care about being a man" I don't think this will work sexuality-wise. My bottom line: male sexuality becomes more and more tricky and real men (who are pretty simple and straight creatures after all) fall short of it.
- Einstalbert 13y ago
  I'm glad you have concerns about programming as a field and I feel as though they are valid. It's not my fight, though, so I wish you luck. I agree it isn't equal, in many definitions of the word, but I wouldn't necessarily associate it with manly or womanly in terms of sexuality/identity. It's simply a field. A field that has, up until now, been primarily men and perhaps even primarily negative men and perhaps, again, men who are negative towards women because they are insecure about it. I think it says more about them than the field, but I could be wrong. I still stand by the thought that programming is inherently nothing other than a field, ripe for societies to use or abuse as they will. I could say the same about any field, teaching children I guess is the opposite at least in terms of number by gender. Not sure what the large, burly man colleague of yours has to do with my point, though. He could be a four foot tall waif and I wouldn't think any differently of the field. I work with many said waifs and I make no distinction. Sexuality, as I've found, can be fluid even within the boundaries of something like being straight. Your bottom line is interesting, but mine is more or less, "Don't feel bad about falling short of something you have complete control of." There's no reason to feel as though you need to live up to some definition of sexuality when it involves identity. Carve your own identity. It isn't easy, and it isn't straightforward, but I trust humans to be more than simple creatures.

__pThrow 13y ago

It certainly doesn't seem to follow that "manly man who takes out the trash and fixes the car, roof, and does the lawn" has to be a dick in any manner as you put it. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/14/men-women-work-time/1983271/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/14/men-wom... reports that men spend 10 more hours than women doing paid work at work while women spend six more hours than men doing household work. That's not being a dick either, and is considered manly by many.

guard-of-terra 13y ago
Imagine man doing same amount of paid work* as his woman, and their home not having any car, roof and lawn. What would the manly man do? Lay on coach and drink beers? * actual pay may differ both ways but that's not where we look when comparing effort.
- __pThrow 13y ago
  What someone does at home is probably limited by available time, and not limited by lack of things to do. Given what you've stated, I would hope the manly man would build them a roof for their home. I still don't see any requirement or suggestion that being manly somehow implies dickish behavior at home or with his partner.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    When all you have is 35 m^2 (400 sq ft) flat there is a simple limit on amount of manly things you can do there. Once everything works, no more drilling, repairing or building is necessary. But house chores are still unlimited, to be repeated every week.
    - __pThrow 13y ago
      Um, household chores are not unlimited, and there are many that are considered manly, and still, still, you don't respond to my repeated statement, nothing about doing manly chores, or being manly necessitates being a dick.

aaronem 13y ago

> "manly man" is a dick who doesn't do his fair share Oh? My wife, back when I had one, never seemed interested in an egalitarian split for chores like, say, replacing the car's serpentine belt and tensioner, or sorting out the electrical fault that'd stopped the taillights working -- or, for that matter, taking out the garbage. (Which, incidentally, I gather from empirical evidence does count as a "manly activity", presumably because garbage is often heavy and occasionally malodorous.) So also for yardwork and most repairs to the domicile; in general, if the job seemed likely to involve sweating, swearing, or a risk of ending up bleeding, the job was mine, and the egalitarian split business applied only to the rest. Which got galling after a while; I don't mind mowing, weeding, edging, and sweeping, or spending six hours getting filthy with my arm jammed to the elbow up the ass end of a car engine, but when I've been doing that all day, and have finally finished up and got a shower, a beer, and a piece of the couch, I don't give a damn if it's my turn to cook -- and nor should I, because I've done my fair share. > We have at least two viable role models for women: girly woman and equal breadwinner woman. I'm not sure about that. I've known a lot of people whose marriages involved what you call an "equal breadwinner woman". Most of those marriages have failed. While I've known rather fewer people whose marriages have involved men and women who more closely followed what the modern age pleases itself to regard as outdated, patriarchal, oppressively stereotypical gender roles, almost all of those whom I do know are still married, and indeed many have been for longer than I've been alive. Causation is always a tricky beast to corner, but at the very least there's a strong correlation there, and I tend to think there's a reason for that. (I'd also note, parenthetically, that the men I've known who've been married to your "equal breadwinner women" haven't been men I've found particularly worthy of respect, nor for the most part have I had the impression they had much respect for themselves. The women themselves tend to be lovely people, if lonely, but their husbands have been no prizes, which does a lot to explain the high divorce rate I've observed among them.) > As a programmer I spend the whole day sitting in a chair and clicking my mouse (keyboard tapping from time to time). Is that manly? I don't know. No, it's not, and I say that as one who does likewise. (Except mostly with his hands on the keyboard -- what kind of programming do you do that you touch it only rarely?)

guard-of-terra 13y ago
"replacing the car's serpentine belt and tensioner, or sorting out the electrical fault that'd stopped the taillights working" [I don't have a car.] The problem is, once your home is up and running there's not much for you to do, but "unmanly" house chores form a never-ending stream. "Men work" scale (do it good once, it's good for a few years), but "women work" doesn't (wipe the floor today, still needs to be done again in a week). "the men I've known who've been married to your "equal breadwinner women" haven't been men I've found particularly worthy of respect" Well, most people are a kludge. We tend to have higher expectations for men for some reason, but at the end of day we are still human, flawed and all. Should find a solution that works for almost everybody. "what kind of programming do you do that you touch it only rarely?" The one when you "fly" your product most of the time as a pilot and only occasionally modify it as a developer.

adventured 13y ago

This is pretty simple. Manly man that does his fair share is the proper combination. I knew a lot of men that properly combined those two aspects growing up, they were excellent role models. I have plenty of friends that fit that bill today in their marriages. I don't know a married couple that doesn't complain about sex however. I think that's a problem of how invigorating can the same thing be after 10 or 20 years. It's a life challenge across the board to keep any long term relationship sharp, I'm not sure why we expect sex to be different.

sliverstorm 13y ago

Taking out the trash as a manly activity made me giggle. Well, the scene in Mad Men of Draper assembling the play house comes to mind. I'd bet many activities could be seen as manly, as long as the guy is well-muscled, in a thin shirt, and the activity requires muscle.