5 ms·

Atlanta introduces bill to regulate Uber and Lyft

28 points by jaldoretta 13y ago

frankydp 13y ago
I am not sure this legislation is terrible. Requiring GPS billing be certified, drivers be insured, drivers be licensed, and some of the other general consumer protections seem pretty sensible. I also did not see anything in the legislation that related to minimum rates as the article implied. It actually does seem like a decent first draft.
- outside1234 13y ago
  The disallowing internet apps seems dumb. Seriously, if I could flag a regular cab with a general purpose app that would be about 95% of the value of Uber to me. I'm sort of baffled why someone like Yellow Cab doesn't just put out an app.
  - frankydp 13y ago
    The use of Internet or cellular telephone software to calculate rates shall not be permitted unless such software complies with and conforms to the weights and measures standards. Not disallowed just have to show your app is measuring properly.
    - cjrp 13y ago
      Or just have the driver type in the fare manually from their meter?
  - greg5green 13y ago
    At least here in Columbus, Yellow Cab does have an app for that: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id628065359?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id628065359?mt=8 or https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apcurium.MK.YellowCabColumbus https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apcurium.M... With all the crazy laws surrounding taxis and liveries, I wouldn't be surprised if an app like that is illegal in some municipalities.
  - pmorici 13y ago
    It doesn't matter if it is an app or a phone call there is a culture in the Taxi industry of just ignoring calls for a pick-up in certain areas that they view negatively. Uber and Lyft don't discriminate like that.
    - couradical 13y ago
      You've obviously never tried to hail an Uber from a dodgy neighborhood in Boston then. It takes me twice as long to get picked up where I live, versus my girlfriend, and I generally have to go through a driver switch or two.
      - pmorici 13y ago
        Well yeah it takes a little longer because drivers aren't going to hang out in that neighborhood. You do eventually get picked up though. My experience in Baltimore with taxis is that no amount of calling will get them to come to a part of town they don't like. Nothing is going to change the fact that it is a crappy part of town but the difference between no pick-up ever and pick-up with a small glitch is huge for a lot of people living around those areas.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
      Is a Uber or Lyft driver required to accept any pick-up?
      - pmorici 13y ago
        No, but, they track acceptance % by drivers so a driver that is screening locations like that will put themselves at risk of being kicked off Uber. The expectation is that the acceptance % is very high and that once a fare is accepted it is 100% carried out. Also when they display a potential fare to a driver they only show an estimate of how far away it is in minutes and a very zoomed in map of the location so it is hard to even know where you are going to be headed exactly before you accept.
  - bbanyc 13y ago
    That's pretty much what Hailo is. It's not yet as widespread as Uber though.
  - ig1 13y ago
    There is one: https://www.hailocab.com https://www.hailocab.com
- polarix 13y ago
  The premise of these companies is essentially that one doesn't need licensing for drivers if the system keeps a reputation history. This bill makes that explicitly illegal. The companies will no longer be able to serve that jurisdiction.
  - frankydp 13y ago
    Can you not keep a reputation history for drivers that have a license?
    - polarix 13y ago
      They're not referring to a drivers license here, which would be eminently sane. They're referring to taxi licenses, which are artificially restricted. 40-1-193. (a) No transportation referral service provider subject to this part shall contract with, utilize, or refer individuals or entities to limousine carriers or taxi services that are not properly licensed by the state or a political subdivision of this state, are not properly insured under state or local law, or which use drivers that are not properly licensed under state and local law to carry passengers for hire.
      - frankydp 13y ago
        You are correct. It is completely unreasonable to ask Uber to license there drivers like all of the other transportation services.
      - jeffdavis 13y ago
        Is the license the same thing as a medallion? If they just want to ask someone to pass a test and/or background check, that seems fine. If they refuse to issue one because there is a limit, that works against consumers.
        codex 13y ago
        Not necessarily. NYC introduced medallions because a glut of taxis we're clogging vital infrastructure and nobody could make a profit, thus safety and maintenance were compromised. Capitalism does not produce the optimal outcome for consumers when externalities are not part of the equation.
- couradical 13y ago
  I too was surprised at Uber's tone. I mean, requiring commercial drivers to have a commercial insurance policy and ensuring that the measured rates are accurate as measured by a neutral 3rd party are only things that could help differentiate Uber's service. Plus, unless they have posted per-mile or per-hour livery rates, Uber's pitch as a private, centrally dispatched livery/transport service should make their pricing manipulations okay. I actually almost hope this passes?
  - jeffdavis 13y ago
    Uber always sends you an exact map of your route. You can verify the billing yourself or prove to a third party that the billing is miscalculated.
- patcon 13y ago
  I'm with you on insurance and licensing, but "certified GPS billing" seems backward. Imagine the app is open source and people are not complaining about suspicious behaviour or billing patterns in the reputation ranking system -- why would this be necessary?
  - frankydp 13y ago
    Would you buy gas at a pump that was not certified? Do you check to see if your pump was certified when you get gas? Would the rank and file consumer verify the routing measurements of an app or even know how or have the tools to accurately do so?
- jerf 13y ago
  Introducing some consumer protection measures back into the Uber model may make sense, depending on how it is done. Writing into the law that the only way to ever provide any taxi service ever is exactly and only the exact way it is done today, by what today is de facto a cartel, does not make sense. Since this law is doing a bit of both, it's hard to give a snap summary of goodness or badness, but on the whole, I'd rather do nothing and wait a bit more for real problems to arise before I write into the legal code the impossibility of ever again innovating in the field of taxi-like transportation. (Especially with driverless cars metaphorically just around the corner. Whatever regulation may be desirable there, nobody's currently in a position to write it.) It is not clear to me that Uber is a huge problem for anybody but an industry being disrupted yet, and that is not only not a crime, it's a feature of the system. (Feel free to correct me in replies, if you like; this is not a permanent state of mind. It really is not clear to me right now that Uber is a significant danger to anyone but existing taxi companies. I've heard a couple of anecdotes, but so far the taxi industry is well able to keep up with "anecdotes" of how they do bad things too, so calling it a "wash" would probably be doing the current incumbents a pretty big favor....)
JackFr 13y ago
This highlights the fact that Uber and Lyft are not disrupting so much as exploiting regulatory arbitrage. That is, for all intents and purposes they are taxis, but they are attempting to ignore licensing, regulatory and fee requirements
- matthewmcg 13y ago
  Agreed, but they also should make us examine the regulation of taxi services more skeptically.
  - polarix 13y ago
    Yes. They've helped us find that: no, once we have a reputation economy, we don't need the government to tell us who we can safely get in a car with.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - gamblor956 13y ago
      And as Yelp, eBay, and other reputation sites have shown us, it turns out that reputation economies are useless once everyone rates every transaction/buyer/seller 5 stars.
      - patcon 13y ago
        You've never filtered for the bad reviews? Also, is it possible that you're only seeing the uninteresting storm of 5-stars because the "interesting" merchants don't survive? (I honestly have no idea if this is the case.)
    - patcon 13y ago
      Exactly. Now that we can make informed decision, we can excise the social/financial cost of regulation and its administration, in exchange for accepting the risk (of making our own informed decision). I'm a progressive liberal fwiw, not a libertarian.
ynniv 13y ago
Atlanta introduces bill to shut down Uber and Lyft is not an appropriate re-titling of this article.
- polarix 13y ago
  Why not? That's clearly the point, and that's why it's relevant to this community. I suppose it should probably be in the passive voice, but that's a nit.
  - ynniv 13y ago
    The article does not claim this, and the parts of the bill that the article highlights do not appear to unduly target new services. The only statement claiming that Uber is being targeted is in an included quote from Uber itself. If someone would like to have a title that makes this claim, they can write their own post and submit that.
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    I think protocol on HN is to use the title associated with the article, not to create your own - even if it seems better.
  - atwebb 13y ago
    That's not clearly the point. It may be inferred but it's hardly clear. The 1k license seems a bit excessive but some of the other points, registering, abiding by current mileage standards, having insurance...all seem completely valid and like places Lyft and Uber are taking advantage of missing regulation and, to some extent, rider's ignorance of the situation they are in if there's an accident or some other mishap.
Major_Grooves 13y ago
Hailo takes the strategy of working with existing licensed taxis so presumably they would be ok?
Alex3917 13y ago
Fine by me, Uber is a scam company. Here is an email I got from them today. Subject (large text): "Explore NJ this weekend with FREE uberX rides" Body (small text): "NJLOVESuberX covers rides beginning OR ending in New Jersey, up to $20. Believe us – at these rates, $20 will get you far." Fine print (tiny text): "Please note that there is a $20 surcharge for trips between New Jersey and NYC."

28 points by jaldoretta 13y ago

I am not sure this legislation is terrible. Requiring GPS billing be certified, drivers be insured, drivers be licensed, and some of the other general consumer protections seem pretty sensible. I also did not see anything in the legislation that related to minimum rates as the article implied. It actually does seem like a decent first draft.

outside1234 13y ago
The disallowing internet apps seems dumb. Seriously, if I could flag a regular cab with a general purpose app that would be about 95% of the value of Uber to me. I'm sort of baffled why someone like Yellow Cab doesn't just put out an app.
- frankydp 13y ago
  The use of Internet or cellular telephone software to calculate rates shall not be permitted unless such software complies with and conforms to the weights and measures standards. Not disallowed just have to show your app is measuring properly.
  - cjrp 13y ago
    Or just have the driver type in the fare manually from their meter?
- greg5green 13y ago
  At least here in Columbus, Yellow Cab does have an app for that: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id628065359?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id628065359?mt=8 or https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apcurium.MK.YellowCabColumbus https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apcurium.M... With all the crazy laws surrounding taxis and liveries, I wouldn't be surprised if an app like that is illegal in some municipalities.
- pmorici 13y ago
  It doesn't matter if it is an app or a phone call there is a culture in the Taxi industry of just ignoring calls for a pick-up in certain areas that they view negatively. Uber and Lyft don't discriminate like that.
  - couradical 13y ago
    You've obviously never tried to hail an Uber from a dodgy neighborhood in Boston then. It takes me twice as long to get picked up where I live, versus my girlfriend, and I generally have to go through a driver switch or two.
    - pmorici 13y ago
      Well yeah it takes a little longer because drivers aren't going to hang out in that neighborhood. You do eventually get picked up though. My experience in Baltimore with taxis is that no amount of calling will get them to come to a part of town they don't like. Nothing is going to change the fact that it is a crappy part of town but the difference between no pick-up ever and pick-up with a small glitch is huge for a lot of people living around those areas.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
    Is a Uber or Lyft driver required to accept any pick-up?
    - pmorici 13y ago
      No, but, they track acceptance % by drivers so a driver that is screening locations like that will put themselves at risk of being kicked off Uber. The expectation is that the acceptance % is very high and that once a fare is accepted it is 100% carried out. Also when they display a potential fare to a driver they only show an estimate of how far away it is in minutes and a very zoomed in map of the location so it is hard to even know where you are going to be headed exactly before you accept.
- bbanyc 13y ago
  That's pretty much what Hailo is. It's not yet as widespread as Uber though.
- ig1 13y ago
  There is one: https://www.hailocab.com https://www.hailocab.com
polarix 13y ago
The premise of these companies is essentially that one doesn't need licensing for drivers if the system keeps a reputation history. This bill makes that explicitly illegal. The companies will no longer be able to serve that jurisdiction.
- frankydp 13y ago
  Can you not keep a reputation history for drivers that have a license?
  - polarix 13y ago
    They're not referring to a drivers license here, which would be eminently sane. They're referring to taxi licenses, which are artificially restricted. 40-1-193. (a) No transportation referral service provider subject to this part shall contract with, utilize, or refer individuals or entities to limousine carriers or taxi services that are not properly licensed by the state or a political subdivision of this state, are not properly insured under state or local law, or which use drivers that are not properly licensed under state and local law to carry passengers for hire.
    - frankydp 13y ago
      You are correct. It is completely unreasonable to ask Uber to license there drivers like all of the other transportation services.
    - jeffdavis 13y ago
      Is the license the same thing as a medallion? If they just want to ask someone to pass a test and/or background check, that seems fine. If they refuse to issue one because there is a limit, that works against consumers.
      - codex 13y ago
        Not necessarily. NYC introduced medallions because a glut of taxis we're clogging vital infrastructure and nobody could make a profit, thus safety and maintenance were compromised. Capitalism does not produce the optimal outcome for consumers when externalities are not part of the equation.
couradical 13y ago
I too was surprised at Uber's tone. I mean, requiring commercial drivers to have a commercial insurance policy and ensuring that the measured rates are accurate as measured by a neutral 3rd party are only things that could help differentiate Uber's service. Plus, unless they have posted per-mile or per-hour livery rates, Uber's pitch as a private, centrally dispatched livery/transport service should make their pricing manipulations okay. I actually almost hope this passes?
- jeffdavis 13y ago
  Uber always sends you an exact map of your route. You can verify the billing yourself or prove to a third party that the billing is miscalculated.
patcon 13y ago
I'm with you on insurance and licensing, but "certified GPS billing" seems backward. Imagine the app is open source and people are not complaining about suspicious behaviour or billing patterns in the reputation ranking system -- why would this be necessary?
- frankydp 13y ago
  Would you buy gas at a pump that was not certified? Do you check to see if your pump was certified when you get gas? Would the rank and file consumer verify the routing measurements of an app or even know how or have the tools to accurately do so?
jerf 13y ago
Introducing some consumer protection measures back into the Uber model may make sense, depending on how it is done. Writing into the law that the only way to ever provide any taxi service ever is exactly and only the exact way it is done today, by what today is de facto a cartel, does not make sense. Since this law is doing a bit of both, it's hard to give a snap summary of goodness or badness, but on the whole, I'd rather do nothing and wait a bit more for real problems to arise before I write into the legal code the impossibility of ever again innovating in the field of taxi-like transportation. (Especially with driverless cars metaphorically just around the corner. Whatever regulation may be desirable there, nobody's currently in a position to write it.) It is not clear to me that Uber is a huge problem for anybody but an industry being disrupted yet, and that is not only not a crime, it's a feature of the system. (Feel free to correct me in replies, if you like; this is not a permanent state of mind. It really is not clear to me right now that Uber is a significant danger to anyone but existing taxi companies. I've heard a couple of anecdotes, but so far the taxi industry is well able to keep up with "anecdotes" of how they do bad things too, so calling it a "wash" would probably be doing the current incumbents a pretty big favor....)

JackFr 13y ago

This highlights the fact that Uber and Lyft are not disrupting so much as exploiting regulatory arbitrage. That is, for all intents and purposes they are taxis, but they are attempting to ignore licensing, regulatory and fee requirements

matthewmcg 13y ago
Agreed, but they also should make us examine the regulation of taxi services more skeptically.
- polarix 13y ago
  Yes. They've helped us find that: no, once we have a reputation economy, we don't need the government to tell us who we can safely get in a car with.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - gamblor956 13y ago
    And as Yelp, eBay, and other reputation sites have shown us, it turns out that reputation economies are useless once everyone rates every transaction/buyer/seller 5 stars.
    - patcon 13y ago
      You've never filtered for the bad reviews? Also, is it possible that you're only seeing the uninteresting storm of 5-stars because the "interesting" merchants don't survive? (I honestly have no idea if this is the case.)
  - patcon 13y ago
    Exactly. Now that we can make informed decision, we can excise the social/financial cost of regulation and its administration, in exchange for accepting the risk (of making our own informed decision). I'm a progressive liberal fwiw, not a libertarian.

ynniv 13y ago

Atlanta introduces bill to shut down Uber and Lyft is not an appropriate re-titling of this article.

polarix 13y ago
Why not? That's clearly the point, and that's why it's relevant to this community. I suppose it should probably be in the passive voice, but that's a nit.
- ynniv 13y ago
  The article does not claim this, and the parts of the bill that the article highlights do not appear to unduly target new services. The only statement claiming that Uber is being targeted is in an included quote from Uber itself. If someone would like to have a title that makes this claim, they can write their own post and submit that.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  I think protocol on HN is to use the title associated with the article, not to create your own - even if it seems better.
- atwebb 13y ago
  That's not clearly the point. It may be inferred but it's hardly clear. The 1k license seems a bit excessive but some of the other points, registering, abiding by current mileage standards, having insurance...all seem completely valid and like places Lyft and Uber are taking advantage of missing regulation and, to some extent, rider's ignorance of the situation they are in if there's an accident or some other mishap.

Major_Grooves 13y ago

Hailo takes the strategy of working with existing licensed taxis so presumably they would be ok?

Alex3917 13y ago

Fine by me, Uber is a scam company. Here is an email I got from them today. Subject (large text): "Explore NJ this weekend with FREE uberX rides" Body (small text): "NJLOVESuberX covers rides beginning OR ending in New Jersey, up to $20. Believe us – at these rates, $20 will get you far." Fine print (tiny text): "Please note that there is a $20 surcharge for trips between New Jersey and NYC."