9 ms·

Announcing Two Scoops of Django 1.6

156 points by jpdlla 13y ago

maciejgryka 13y ago
Haven't seen this version yet, but the 1.5 edition was a great resource for me. If you've done something with Django already and are trying to improve, this book is perfect.
inglesp 13y ago
I've probably recommended earlier versions of this book to everybody who uses Django I've met in the flesh, so I may as well do so here as well. It's been a great resource, full of years of accumulated wisdom from the authors and the wider community.
zachwill 13y ago
Kind of shocked they won't be offering a Kindle version. I was a big fan of the 1.5 edition.
- div 13y ago
  Agreed, I really don't like physical technical books. If an epub was available, I would have spent the time writing this comment by filling out my credit card details in stead.
  - rom16384 13y ago
    Exactly. I purchased the 1.5 ebook version, and was also going to buy this one if it was priced reasonably, but won't bother buying the paper version.
    - liyanage 13y ago
      Same here, I would immediately buy this new version (I bought the first one) if it were available electronically. I stopped buying paper technical books, they are never around when I need them. I also like to read them on my iPad, phone and laptop at different times. My money now goes to publishers (like O'Reilly) who support my workflow.
      - targusman 13y ago
        i agree with you but i also understand the authors. there are trolls on reddit and other places that promote not buying the book and getting it off bittorrent.
      - thatthatis 13y ago
        I am yet another lost customer. The rationale seems petty and short sighted to me.
- jpdlla 13y ago
  Reasons for the print-only decision here http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-faq#format-1.6 http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-faq...
  - jaegerpicker 13y ago
    Right, I read them also. Unfortunately I think they aren't very good reasons and won't be purchasing the book because of that. I really loved the first book, easily the best django book I've read but I don't buy print books any longer for several reasons, storage space, environmental concerns, and price. I'm not angry about it but I'll not be supporting authors who won't provide the books in a format that is useful to me. It's far too useful for me to have all of my books available to me at a moments notice where ever I go. I work from a lot of different locations and it's far more practical to carry an ipad with me them a mountain of books.
  - dalore 13y ago
    >The book is being released in print format only. We've decided on this because: >The print version of Two Scoops of Django 1.5 has been by far the most popular version of the book with readers, selling several times more than the e-books. In addition, the feedback we've gotten has been that technical books are generally better to have in print than as an ebook. >Creating and proofing each ebook format is not a trivial effort. It involves reformatting every code sample to work on every ebook reader, accounting for differences in screen contrast, accessibility testing, and proofreading the text and code samples several times on each device. Instead of spending our time struggling with reformatting, we're choosing to focus on improving the technical material. >Considering that we publicly offered a free electronic copy to those who requested it, seeing piracy of the electronic editions from the first day of sales has been disheartening. As indie authors, it hurts to see this happening. Now I don't agree with those reasons. I prefer an ebook version as I can bookmark it, make notes, read it on my phone etc. But they have their reasons. It's not going to stop piracy and I might purchase the paper copy and then download one of the pirate versions that will come out. I would prefer they offered a free ebook version that they didn't spend time fixing the code layout issues they mention. The book exists as an electronic version anyhow when it goes to the publisher so it wouldn't be a big deal.
- ashray 13y ago
  No digital version ? I think that's absolutely ridiculous! I read their reasons for not having one but lets be honest, this is a book for programmers ? And it doesn't have a digital version ? Someone's clearly lost the plot here! I supported the previous edition of the book since the beta version. I'm a digital nomad, I work all over the world, I'm not about to lug a 446 page django book with me wherever I go. There are several developers who like to search for and bookmark stuff in their ebooks. Now it's impossible to Ctrl+F. Some of us like to read on the train or like to read on different platforms (kindle/ipad/iphone/android/etc). I recommended the first version of this book to several fellow django programmers. Unfortunately I am really disappointed by this print-only decision. The fact that piracy was a reason for it disheartens me even more. I guess these guys have never heard of anyone scanning in a physical book and sharing PDFs over the internet. Providing a print only version will just hurt legitimate customers, the pirates are still gonna pirate :( I can count down the days that this shows up on the pirate bay. As for the fact that "The print version sold the most". Well, were the print people supporting your book while you were in beta releasing new versions every week ? Did they give you feedback on how good/bad the content was ? Seriously guys, your next book should be about "How not to do programming books".
  - neves 13y ago
    And we in the corners of the world have to pay a lot of money just for shipping.
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    Yeah. Fairly disappointed. I just paid print+epub version of "Two Scoops of Django 1.5" very recently, and now out comes this. Not saying that I should get a free copy, no. But I don't have a choice but to pay another $40. (Not that I -have- to.)
- megaman821 13y ago
  Yeah, I was all set to order this book on Amazon but I prefer my books on Kindle. Hopefully they change their minds since it looks like a great book.
sahat 13y ago
Is Django still relevant in the web community? I watched "Making Disqus Realtime" a year ago, where they were talking about building a real-time system using Django, gevent, gunicorn, Redis, Flask, nginx, haproxy. The entire stack could be condensed into node.js + socket.io.
- tomchristie 13y ago
  If you want a schema database backed Web App or API then yeah, sure, both Rails & Django are clearly still the most mature and fully featured frameworks. Yes, there's plenty of other interesting things happening, and yes Django is only going to be one part of many in your stack, but it's still got a hell of a lot going for it.
- drdaeman 13y ago
  If the web community is those hipsters who want to rewrite everything to a fad tech of the month, every month, then Django is completely outdated and irrelevant. Otherwise, it's just another relatively solid general-purpose framework. Probably not fit (unless heavily tinkered with) for edge cases, missing certain features and has its share of quirks, but still a fine choice for many typical websites out there.
- frankwiles 13y ago
  Still relevant? You've got to be kidding me. Sure node is the new cool thing, but Django is going to "relevant" for years to come. Even just looking at job openings in very tech forward places like SF the Django jobs out weigh node jobs 5 to 1. Keep in mind not everything needs to be that "real time" and it is also a horrible business decision to rewrite your core apps in the latest framework without reason.
  - spikels 13y ago
    Where do you get the 5:1 ratio? Jobs in SF Bay Area on Craigslist: Node 95, Django 50 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAreaID=&query=node&catAbb=jjj http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAre... http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAreaID=&query=django&catAbb=jjj http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAre...
drdaeman 13y ago
One point made me wondering. From the article: > "for the same reasons developing on SQLite causes problems" I've used SQLite with Django and Flask where it was appropriate option (i.e. as a low-traffic low-volume simple database) and never had any problems. While there are things about SQLite one certainly has to be aware of (mostly related to the type system), I doubt SQLite causes more problems than any other RDBMS, as every one has its own specifics and quirks. Am I unaware of something? EDIT: Thanks, now I get it. Misunderstood what this quote was about.
- simonw 13y ago
  That quote is about developing and testing on SQLite but deploying on another database such as PostgreSQL and MySQL. Unsurprisingly, doing so is likely to result in bugs that only occur in production.
- rom16384 13y ago
  The point is not about avoiding SQLite when it makes sense to use it, but to have the same DB in the development and production environment. SQLite is much more permissive than, say, Postgres, and these differences mean that bugs could go unnoticed until deployment.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
cschmidt 13y ago
I loved the 1.5 version, and just ordered the new version. If Pydanny or Audrey stops by to read this, I have a suggestion. You two should write a book aimed at someone entirely new to Django. I've seen your book often recommended as the second book on Django you should read. However, there isn't a good first book that isn't very outdated. How about "One Scoop of Django", as an intro for someone brand new to Django? Perhaps more example based, but still with your fun style. Or you could expand your current book with some new chapters. Thanks!
- acjohnson55 13y ago
  I think the actual Django manual is One Scoop, at least if you already have a basic understanding of webdev and Python. It's fantastically well written. I downloaded the PDF version and read it pretty much cover to cover to learn Django. To me, Two Scoops picks up right where the manual leaves off. Maybe the biggest problem is that the manual maybe doesn't present itself as totally valid linear resource.
  - cschmidt 13y ago
    It is a great resource, but it is getting out of date. They even have a disclaimer on that page [1] now: While the book mentions Django version 1.4 in places, the vast majority of the book is for Django version 1.0, which was released over four years ago. Therefore this resource is extremely out of date and, until the book is finished being updated, we ask that, at this time, djangobook.com not be used for educational purposes. That matters most to a beginner. If you're following along at home with Django 1.6, and the code doesn't work like it says, then you're stuck. [1] http://www.djangobook.com/en/2.0/index.html http://www.djangobook.com/en/2.0/index.html
    - neokya 13y ago
      I think he is talking about this https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.6/intro/tutorial01/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.6/intro/tutorial01/ Indeed, it is One Scoop of Django
- 13y ago
porker 13y ago
Maybe I misread originally, but I didn't expect to have to buy a new ebook to go from 1.5 -> 1.6. I understand why the authors have decided to produce a new* book, but I don't think they've thought about the emotional impact from a customer's perspective. *new for existing owners, who have to buy it all over again
- ivan_ah 13y ago
  I feel that way, especially since I bought the 1.5 version last week, but what are $35 in the large scheme of things ;) @pydanny Would have been cool to see an errata file for 1.5 since you mentioned some typos were fixed.
- acjohnson55 13y ago
  I would check out the page for an explanation: http://twoscoopspress.com/products/two-scoops-of-django-1-6 http://twoscoopspress.com/products/two-scoops-of-django-1-6 Basically, the book is now 1.5x the size as it was before. To me, this totally justifies releasing a new book. Having taken a chance on the early release of the original book and having my mind blown, I give these guys the benefit of the doubt. My biggest disappointment is the lack of eBook. That's how I read the first version, and that's how I would read this version. I'd be glad to pay the price for a physical book, but I definitely want to actually read it electronically.
- masklinn 13y ago
  > I didn't expect to have to buy a new ebook to go from 1.5 -> 1.6. You don't, because there's no 1.6 ebook.
ylem 13y ago
Here, there are two pain points--one is that this is a "minor" version change of the core library and the second is that there is no electronic version. If there were an electronic version, I would still buy it, but it's not worth it for the shelf space...I would recommend the earlier version to people, it was an excellent resource. Reading their explanation, perhaps if they just provided a pdf?
- doughj3 13y ago
  I completely agree with this. I own the ebook of the last edition, but the combination of a new edition for 1.5->1.6 and the lack of an electronic version for the new copy is more than I'm willing to swallow. Here's to hoping the authors change their mind...
mikehearn 13y ago
Just to add to the HN echo chamber, I bought and love the 1.5 ebook, but the lack of a digital version for this new edition means I won't be updating. When I am building new projects I often find myself using ctrl+F to search for specific mentions of variables or settings. A print book adds "stuff" to my life, gives me another thing to carry between work and home, and makes it harder for me to find the information I need. But I understand that as a member of the minority (i.e. ebook purchasers) I am in a strategically disadvantaged position and accept that. I can live without it.
shuaib 13y ago
Looks promising. I will wait for the Ebook though (I know authors don't plan on releasing one, but their plan has to fail ;) ).
- gatehouse 13y ago
  Same: can't wait to read it, wake me up when there is a pdf.
lawnchair_larry 13y ago
Dead-tree edition exclusive is the most draconian DRM of them all in 2014. I bought the first, but won't be a customer anymore. I'm also surprised it's a full price upgrade so soon.
- walkon 13y ago
  I do agree that the current price seems a bit high, but there are significant changes from the first edition: http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-change-list http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-cha... In the comments of the announcement, PyDanny lists their reasons why they skipped an ebook format this time: - The print version of Two Scoops of Django 1.5 has been by far the most popular version of the book with readers, selling several times more than the e-books. In addition, the feedback we've gotten has been that technical books are generally better to have in print than as an ebook. - Creating and proofing each ebook format is not a trivial effort. It involves reformatting every code sample to work on every ebook reader, accounting for differences in screen contrast, accessibility testing, and proofreading the text and code samples several times on each device. Instead of spending our time struggling with reformatting, we're choosing to focus on improving the technical material. - Considering that we publicly offered a free electronic copy to those who requested it, seeing piracy of the electronic editions from the first day of sales has been disheartening. As indie authors, it hurts to see this happening. They can't produce a digital edition without extra cost and it would be frustrating to make that investment only to see people immediately circulating copies. Yes, they'll loose readers, but they've estimated that is an acceptable trade off at this time.
  - thatthatis 13y ago
    So only release one ebook format - PDF seems universally supported.
  - jemeshsu 13y ago
    If epub formatting is a problem, they can actually release a PDF version. They probably not realise that printed book also can be pirated. Someone will painstakingly scan the book into PDF.
throne 13y ago
Bought 1.5 ebook, received email about 1.6, no mention of "no ebook" anywhere in email. Found FAQ. Lists reasons why "no ebook" is best for them, not their customers. I like supporting authors, but not by buying paper books. O'Reilly and PragPub have figured this out which is why I support them. Edit: Wow, three emails to the list of folks who bought the ebook version of 1.5. The third to email the entire faq out. Self publishing apparently isn't for everyone.
enscr 13y ago
I bought the 1.5 version and I consider it a technically well written book. However, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the examples (too ice-cream centric) In my opinion, it's better to take generic models that represent a real world scenario that most people would be familiar with e.g. an e-commerce catalog like Amazon's. I would have found it much enjoyable to read as compared to a database of ice creams which sounds fun but not practically intuitive as a db.
lazyant 13y ago
Should be heavily discounted for those of us who bought the first edition
deleted 13y ago
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knappador 13y ago
I'll never forget the day I had this book recommended to me. It's fortunate that I was two-handing old-fashioned's since I have a fear of resting on best practices akin to the way a Midway albatross fears the Pacific garbage gyre; the ocean seems to be moving, so I'm not stuck in one place, yet the garbage just keeps floating by, and every time I eat some, I'm a little closer to dying. Months later, my conclusion is that web is pretty irritating, and never call Django MVC. Calling it MVT is kind of like waking up in front of a mirror and realizing you've been sawing your hand off with a fork -- a rude awakening. Think about it, templates do absolutely nothing that controllers do, nothing. MVC is convergent evolution in application programming, yet web programming kind of doesn't have it directly. Probably the best recommendation I can make to any web developer, is to work in application programming. The biggest difference is in application state persistence and the massive indirection across caches, http, databases, sessions, message queues etc that one finds in web programming. The second biggest difference is that instead of relying on a variety of run-times that are supposed to match a standard, there is a single run-time/program that has to rely on features of the OS and a lot more platform specific deployment hoops to jump through. However, internet explorer. History of web development: Used to, the internet was used to network applications together. Then one day, we put the entire application on the internet. 50% of the indirection is still geared towards networking application instances, the whole global community part of the internet. The other 50% of indirection is geared towards recovering through abstraction what is missing when doing application development. Hybrid API architectures make this explicit. I'm saying that the best way, in my experience, to get better at web development, is to work outside of web, where you find the stark lack of indirection somewhat awesome, and when going back into the web world, all of this indirection now speaks to me as if a kind of synesthesia where badly arranged furniture appears to be on fire. Not node.js, rails, meteor, flask or cold-hard gevent http servers will make this apparent. All of web development is riddled with this indirection, top to bottom. It's almost painful to me to be helping someone learn how to program LAMP because I'm doing them the greatest good on their current trajectory while 100% conscious of how all the problems they're experiencing are in trying to pierce the indirection that is web application programming. Let's just start calling web programming mainframe programming with soft client terminals in virtual machines called browsers and where UNIX has been replaced with a relatively massive software stack because not many people like writing OS's but everyone likes writing http servers and libraries. Don't get me wrong, I'm still making a ton of skrill on Django and web programming in general, but can we just raise the alarm a little bit? Web application programming does not seem to have the goal of abstracting on top of web stacks to make it into application programming, but rather stops at a C-like worldview where it's still possible to utterly destroy all that is consistent application state for the sake of being able to run trampolines written in assembly.
Ensorceled 13y ago
While I'm disappointed that there is no eBook, I'd have been happy to pay full ebook price for the upgrade, I'm more disappointed that getting the book into Canada is going to cost almost $60US with shipping and end up being much less useful.
yeukhon 13y ago
Apparently, a used 2nd edition can cost $999.11? http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Daniel+Greenfeld&search-alias=books&text=Daniel+Greenfeld&sort=relevancerank http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?ie=UTF8&field-a...
- ericd 13y ago
  Pricing bots gone wild?
sonar_un 13y ago
Funny how I said to pydanny (on Reddit) a couple days ago that i'd buy the new Two Scoops as soon as it came out. Little did I know that it would not be a digital release. In the conversation, pydanny did mention that nearly everything in Two Scoops 1.5 should apply to 1.6, and it does (as I went through the book with a fresh 1.6 install). So for those of you contemplating the books for current use, I'd say, go ahead! You can definitely count me out for this new version of Two Scoops, I have no need for a print copy of any programming book. I just recycled some old PHP and Javascript books I had laying around for years unused. It seems useless to me that in 2014 we'd forgo printing this kind of book when the coding and reading/learning are happening on the same screen. So thanks pydanny for Two Scoops, but I've unsubscribed from your mailing lists and will be opting out of this release.
- jayfehr 13y ago
  Yeah, I think people just pretty much assume that a programming book would have a digital version these days.
code_chimp 13y ago
Sorry, without an ebook I'm going to pass - I read/utilize most of my tech books on my iPad. I purchased the original as an ebook, and even went back and bought a physical copy to because I thought what Dan and Audrey were doing was pretty cool. I really don't need a second physical book, but could use an updated epub. Too bad.
hysan 13y ago
Well no e-book (my preferred format for technical books) and no shipping to where I live (in Asia) so, despite liking the 1.5 version, I won't be getting the 1.6 version. Not that I have much of a choice in the matter.
Myrmornis 13y ago
Me too, I bought the first and would not have minded paying full price for again for an ebook of the second. It's up to the authors of course. They seem like very nice people online so it's a shame they're getting so much criticism. Nevertheless, here's my bit of criticism: This is obviously BS and so a bit annoying to include: "In addition, the feedback we've gotten has been that technical books are generally better to have in print than as an ebook."
bmoresbest55 13y ago
So would you guys recommend getting this book or going a little bit more cheap and getting the older version?
akulbe 13y ago
I've said as much to @pydanny already on Twitter, but I think it bears repeating. Piracy absolutely does exist, and it will continue. This is the ugly part of society, that some feel entitled to steal and rob others from the fruits of their labor. This is absolutely wrong. That said, it's also not right to punish your honest customers by not providing the material that they are MORE THAN HAPPY to pay for - in the medium they want. I'm not arguing that ebook prep is easy. I'm sure it is very laborious. I have no personal experience with this, so I will take your word for it. That said, you deserve to be compensated for your efforts. If it's more work to do the digital stuff, then charge enough to cover your work. Charge the same price for digital, as you do for print. I know that some will object. I do not. I'd be HAPPY to pay a higher than normal price (since many publishers discount digital vs. print) I understand your discouragement, based on previous experience. I'd be pissed off too. That said, if I were writing, and selling it for profit... I would welcome revenue from as many legitimate sources as I could get it from. Like others, I've moved nearly everything in my technical library to digital format. I don't want to carry a book, if I don't have to. There's enough in my backpack already. Since you currently only offer print for the new version, I bought it. As a paying customer, who wants to support your continuing work, I hope you will reconsider your decision to discontinue offering ebooks. Thanks, Aaron Kulbe
jessaustin 13y ago
Perhaps the authors will do some market research here on HN? I'm not sure what price point would get me to "repurchase" the electronic version, but I'm unlikely to get the paper version until it's steeply discounted.

156 points by jpdlla 13y ago

Haven't seen this version yet, but the 1.5 edition was a great resource for me. If you've done something with Django already and are trying to improve, this book is perfect.

inglesp 13y ago

I've probably recommended earlier versions of this book to everybody who uses Django I've met in the flesh, so I may as well do so here as well. It's been a great resource, full of years of accumulated wisdom from the authors and the wider community.

zachwill 13y ago

Kind of shocked they won't be offering a Kindle version. I was a big fan of the 1.5 edition.

div 13y ago
Agreed, I really don't like physical technical books. If an epub was available, I would have spent the time writing this comment by filling out my credit card details in stead.
- rom16384 13y ago
  Exactly. I purchased the 1.5 ebook version, and was also going to buy this one if it was priced reasonably, but won't bother buying the paper version.
  - liyanage 13y ago
    Same here, I would immediately buy this new version (I bought the first one) if it were available electronically. I stopped buying paper technical books, they are never around when I need them. I also like to read them on my iPad, phone and laptop at different times. My money now goes to publishers (like O'Reilly) who support my workflow.
    - targusman 13y ago
      i agree with you but i also understand the authors. there are trolls on reddit and other places that promote not buying the book and getting it off bittorrent.
    - thatthatis 13y ago
      I am yet another lost customer. The rationale seems petty and short sighted to me.
jpdlla 13y ago
Reasons for the print-only decision here http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-faq#format-1.6 http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-faq...
- jaegerpicker 13y ago
  Right, I read them also. Unfortunately I think they aren't very good reasons and won't be purchasing the book because of that. I really loved the first book, easily the best django book I've read but I don't buy print books any longer for several reasons, storage space, environmental concerns, and price. I'm not angry about it but I'll not be supporting authors who won't provide the books in a format that is useful to me. It's far too useful for me to have all of my books available to me at a moments notice where ever I go. I work from a lot of different locations and it's far more practical to carry an ipad with me them a mountain of books.
- dalore 13y ago
  >The book is being released in print format only. We've decided on this because: >The print version of Two Scoops of Django 1.5 has been by far the most popular version of the book with readers, selling several times more than the e-books. In addition, the feedback we've gotten has been that technical books are generally better to have in print than as an ebook. >Creating and proofing each ebook format is not a trivial effort. It involves reformatting every code sample to work on every ebook reader, accounting for differences in screen contrast, accessibility testing, and proofreading the text and code samples several times on each device. Instead of spending our time struggling with reformatting, we're choosing to focus on improving the technical material. >Considering that we publicly offered a free electronic copy to those who requested it, seeing piracy of the electronic editions from the first day of sales has been disheartening. As indie authors, it hurts to see this happening. Now I don't agree with those reasons. I prefer an ebook version as I can bookmark it, make notes, read it on my phone etc. But they have their reasons. It's not going to stop piracy and I might purchase the paper copy and then download one of the pirate versions that will come out. I would prefer they offered a free ebook version that they didn't spend time fixing the code layout issues they mention. The book exists as an electronic version anyhow when it goes to the publisher so it wouldn't be a big deal.
ashray 13y ago
No digital version ? I think that's absolutely ridiculous! I read their reasons for not having one but lets be honest, this is a book for programmers ? And it doesn't have a digital version ? Someone's clearly lost the plot here! I supported the previous edition of the book since the beta version. I'm a digital nomad, I work all over the world, I'm not about to lug a 446 page django book with me wherever I go. There are several developers who like to search for and bookmark stuff in their ebooks. Now it's impossible to Ctrl+F. Some of us like to read on the train or like to read on different platforms (kindle/ipad/iphone/android/etc). I recommended the first version of this book to several fellow django programmers. Unfortunately I am really disappointed by this print-only decision. The fact that piracy was a reason for it disheartens me even more. I guess these guys have never heard of anyone scanning in a physical book and sharing PDFs over the internet. Providing a print only version will just hurt legitimate customers, the pirates are still gonna pirate :( I can count down the days that this shows up on the pirate bay. As for the fact that "The print version sold the most". Well, were the print people supporting your book while you were in beta releasing new versions every week ? Did they give you feedback on how good/bad the content was ? Seriously guys, your next book should be about "How not to do programming books".
- neves 13y ago
  And we in the corners of the world have to pay a lot of money just for shipping.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  Yeah. Fairly disappointed. I just paid print+epub version of "Two Scoops of Django 1.5" very recently, and now out comes this. Not saying that I should get a free copy, no. But I don't have a choice but to pay another $40. (Not that I -have- to.)
megaman821 13y ago
Yeah, I was all set to order this book on Amazon but I prefer my books on Kindle. Hopefully they change their minds since it looks like a great book.

sahat 13y ago

Is Django still relevant in the web community? I watched "Making Disqus Realtime" a year ago, where they were talking about building a real-time system using Django, gevent, gunicorn, Redis, Flask, nginx, haproxy. The entire stack could be condensed into node.js + socket.io.

tomchristie 13y ago
If you want a schema database backed Web App or API then yeah, sure, both Rails & Django are clearly still the most mature and fully featured frameworks. Yes, there's plenty of other interesting things happening, and yes Django is only going to be one part of many in your stack, but it's still got a hell of a lot going for it.
drdaeman 13y ago
If the web community is those hipsters who want to rewrite everything to a fad tech of the month, every month, then Django is completely outdated and irrelevant. Otherwise, it's just another relatively solid general-purpose framework. Probably not fit (unless heavily tinkered with) for edge cases, missing certain features and has its share of quirks, but still a fine choice for many typical websites out there.
frankwiles 13y ago
Still relevant? You've got to be kidding me. Sure node is the new cool thing, but Django is going to "relevant" for years to come. Even just looking at job openings in very tech forward places like SF the Django jobs out weigh node jobs 5 to 1. Keep in mind not everything needs to be that "real time" and it is also a horrible business decision to rewrite your core apps in the latest framework without reason.
- spikels 13y ago
  Where do you get the 5:1 ratio? Jobs in SF Bay Area on Craigslist: Node 95, Django 50 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAreaID=&query=node&catAbb=jjj http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAre... http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAreaID=&query=django&catAbb=jjj http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/?sort=rel&areaID=1&subAre...

drdaeman 13y ago

One point made me wondering. From the article: > "for the same reasons developing on SQLite causes problems" I've used SQLite with Django and Flask where it was appropriate option (i.e. as a low-traffic low-volume simple database) and never had any problems. While there are things about SQLite one certainly has to be aware of (mostly related to the type system), I doubt SQLite causes more problems than any other RDBMS, as every one has its own specifics and quirks. Am I unaware of something? EDIT: Thanks, now I get it. Misunderstood what this quote was about.

simonw 13y ago
That quote is about developing and testing on SQLite but deploying on another database such as PostgreSQL and MySQL. Unsurprisingly, doing so is likely to result in bugs that only occur in production.
rom16384 13y ago
The point is not about avoiding SQLite when it makes sense to use it, but to have the same DB in the development and production environment. SQLite is much more permissive than, say, Postgres, and these differences mean that bugs could go unnoticed until deployment.
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cschmidt 13y ago

I loved the 1.5 version, and just ordered the new version. If Pydanny or Audrey stops by to read this, I have a suggestion. You two should write a book aimed at someone entirely new to Django. I've seen your book often recommended as the second book on Django you should read. However, there isn't a good first book that isn't very outdated. How about "One Scoop of Django", as an intro for someone brand new to Django? Perhaps more example based, but still with your fun style. Or you could expand your current book with some new chapters. Thanks!

acjohnson55 13y ago
I think the actual Django manual is One Scoop, at least if you already have a basic understanding of webdev and Python. It's fantastically well written. I downloaded the PDF version and read it pretty much cover to cover to learn Django. To me, Two Scoops picks up right where the manual leaves off. Maybe the biggest problem is that the manual maybe doesn't present itself as totally valid linear resource.
- cschmidt 13y ago
  It is a great resource, but it is getting out of date. They even have a disclaimer on that page [1] now: While the book mentions Django version 1.4 in places, the vast majority of the book is for Django version 1.0, which was released over four years ago. Therefore this resource is extremely out of date and, until the book is finished being updated, we ask that, at this time, djangobook.com not be used for educational purposes. That matters most to a beginner. If you're following along at home with Django 1.6, and the code doesn't work like it says, then you're stuck. [1] http://www.djangobook.com/en/2.0/index.html http://www.djangobook.com/en/2.0/index.html
  - neokya 13y ago
    I think he is talking about this https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.6/intro/tutorial01/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.6/intro/tutorial01/ Indeed, it is One Scoop of Django
13y ago

porker 13y ago

Maybe I misread originally, but I didn't expect to have to buy a new ebook to go from 1.5 -> 1.6. I understand why the authors have decided to produce a new* book, but I don't think they've thought about the emotional impact from a customer's perspective. *new for existing owners, who have to buy it all over again

ivan_ah 13y ago
I feel that way, especially since I bought the 1.5 version last week, but what are $35 in the large scheme of things ;) @pydanny Would have been cool to see an errata file for 1.5 since you mentioned some typos were fixed.
acjohnson55 13y ago
I would check out the page for an explanation: http://twoscoopspress.com/products/two-scoops-of-django-1-6 http://twoscoopspress.com/products/two-scoops-of-django-1-6 Basically, the book is now 1.5x the size as it was before. To me, this totally justifies releasing a new book. Having taken a chance on the early release of the original book and having my mind blown, I give these guys the benefit of the doubt. My biggest disappointment is the lack of eBook. That's how I read the first version, and that's how I would read this version. I'd be glad to pay the price for a physical book, but I definitely want to actually read it electronically.
masklinn 13y ago
> I didn't expect to have to buy a new ebook to go from 1.5 -> 1.6. You don't, because there's no 1.6 ebook.

ylem 13y ago

Here, there are two pain points--one is that this is a "minor" version change of the core library and the second is that there is no electronic version. If there were an electronic version, I would still buy it, but it's not worth it for the shelf space...I would recommend the earlier version to people, it was an excellent resource. Reading their explanation, perhaps if they just provided a pdf?

doughj3 13y ago
I completely agree with this. I own the ebook of the last edition, but the combination of a new edition for 1.5->1.6 and the lack of an electronic version for the new copy is more than I'm willing to swallow. Here's to hoping the authors change their mind...

mikehearn 13y ago

Just to add to the HN echo chamber, I bought and love the 1.5 ebook, but the lack of a digital version for this new edition means I won't be updating. When I am building new projects I often find myself using ctrl+F to search for specific mentions of variables or settings. A print book adds "stuff" to my life, gives me another thing to carry between work and home, and makes it harder for me to find the information I need. But I understand that as a member of the minority (i.e. ebook purchasers) I am in a strategically disadvantaged position and accept that. I can live without it.

shuaib 13y ago

Looks promising. I will wait for the Ebook though (I know authors don't plan on releasing one, but their plan has to fail ;) ).

gatehouse 13y ago
Same: can't wait to read it, wake me up when there is a pdf.

lawnchair_larry 13y ago

Dead-tree edition exclusive is the most draconian DRM of them all in 2014. I bought the first, but won't be a customer anymore. I'm also surprised it's a full price upgrade so soon.

walkon 13y ago
I do agree that the current price seems a bit high, but there are significant changes from the first edition: http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-change-list http://twoscoopspress.com/pages/two-scoops-of-django-1-6-cha... In the comments of the announcement, PyDanny lists their reasons why they skipped an ebook format this time: - The print version of Two Scoops of Django 1.5 has been by far the most popular version of the book with readers, selling several times more than the e-books. In addition, the feedback we've gotten has been that technical books are generally better to have in print than as an ebook. - Creating and proofing each ebook format is not a trivial effort. It involves reformatting every code sample to work on every ebook reader, accounting for differences in screen contrast, accessibility testing, and proofreading the text and code samples several times on each device. Instead of spending our time struggling with reformatting, we're choosing to focus on improving the technical material. - Considering that we publicly offered a free electronic copy to those who requested it, seeing piracy of the electronic editions from the first day of sales has been disheartening. As indie authors, it hurts to see this happening. They can't produce a digital edition without extra cost and it would be frustrating to make that investment only to see people immediately circulating copies. Yes, they'll loose readers, but they've estimated that is an acceptable trade off at this time.
- thatthatis 13y ago
  So only release one ebook format - PDF seems universally supported.
- jemeshsu 13y ago
  If epub formatting is a problem, they can actually release a PDF version. They probably not realise that printed book also can be pirated. Someone will painstakingly scan the book into PDF.

throne 13y ago

Bought 1.5 ebook, received email about 1.6, no mention of "no ebook" anywhere in email. Found FAQ. Lists reasons why "no ebook" is best for them, not their customers. I like supporting authors, but not by buying paper books. O'Reilly and PragPub have figured this out which is why I support them. Edit: Wow, three emails to the list of folks who bought the ebook version of 1.5. The third to email the entire faq out. Self publishing apparently isn't for everyone.

enscr 13y ago

I bought the 1.5 version and I consider it a technically well written book. However, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the examples (too ice-cream centric) In my opinion, it's better to take generic models that represent a real world scenario that most people would be familiar with e.g. an e-commerce catalog like Amazon's. I would have found it much enjoyable to read as compared to a database of ice creams which sounds fun but not practically intuitive as a db.

lazyant 13y ago

Should be heavily discounted for those of us who bought the first edition

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knappador 13y ago

I'll never forget the day I had this book recommended to me. It's fortunate that I was two-handing old-fashioned's since I have a fear of resting on best practices akin to the way a Midway albatross fears the Pacific garbage gyre; the ocean seems to be moving, so I'm not stuck in one place, yet the garbage just keeps floating by, and every time I eat some, I'm a little closer to dying. Months later, my conclusion is that web is pretty irritating, and never call Django MVC. Calling it MVT is kind of like waking up in front of a mirror and realizing you've been sawing your hand off with a fork -- a rude awakening. Think about it, templates do absolutely nothing that controllers do, nothing. MVC is convergent evolution in application programming, yet web programming kind of doesn't have it directly. Probably the best recommendation I can make to any web developer, is to work in application programming. The biggest difference is in application state persistence and the massive indirection across caches, http, databases, sessions, message queues etc that one finds in web programming. The second biggest difference is that instead of relying on a variety of run-times that are supposed to match a standard, there is a single run-time/program that has to rely on features of the OS and a lot more platform specific deployment hoops to jump through. However, internet explorer. History of web development: Used to, the internet was used to network applications together. Then one day, we put the entire application on the internet. 50% of the indirection is still geared towards networking application instances, the whole global community part of the internet. The other 50% of indirection is geared towards recovering through abstraction what is missing when doing application development. Hybrid API architectures make this explicit. I'm saying that the best way, in my experience, to get better at web development, is to work outside of web, where you find the stark lack of indirection somewhat awesome, and when going back into the web world, all of this indirection now speaks to me as if a kind of synesthesia where badly arranged furniture appears to be on fire. Not node.js, rails, meteor, flask or cold-hard gevent http servers will make this apparent. All of web development is riddled with this indirection, top to bottom. It's almost painful to me to be helping someone learn how to program LAMP because I'm doing them the greatest good on their current trajectory while 100% conscious of how all the problems they're experiencing are in trying to pierce the indirection that is web application programming. Let's just start calling web programming mainframe programming with soft client terminals in virtual machines called browsers and where UNIX has been replaced with a relatively massive software stack because not many people like writing OS's but everyone likes writing http servers and libraries. Don't get me wrong, I'm still making a ton of skrill on Django and web programming in general, but can we just raise the alarm a little bit? Web application programming does not seem to have the goal of abstracting on top of web stacks to make it into application programming, but rather stops at a C-like worldview where it's still possible to utterly destroy all that is consistent application state for the sake of being able to run trampolines written in assembly.

Ensorceled 13y ago

While I'm disappointed that there is no eBook, I'd have been happy to pay full ebook price for the upgrade, I'm more disappointed that getting the book into Canada is going to cost almost $60US with shipping and end up being much less useful.

yeukhon 13y ago

Apparently, a used 2nd edition can cost $999.11? http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Daniel+Greenfeld&search-alias=books&text=Daniel+Greenfeld&sort=relevancerank http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?ie=UTF8&field-a...

ericd 13y ago
Pricing bots gone wild?

sonar_un 13y ago

Funny how I said to pydanny (on Reddit) a couple days ago that i'd buy the new Two Scoops as soon as it came out. Little did I know that it would not be a digital release. In the conversation, pydanny did mention that nearly everything in Two Scoops 1.5 should apply to 1.6, and it does (as I went through the book with a fresh 1.6 install). So for those of you contemplating the books for current use, I'd say, go ahead! You can definitely count me out for this new version of Two Scoops, I have no need for a print copy of any programming book. I just recycled some old PHP and Javascript books I had laying around for years unused. It seems useless to me that in 2014 we'd forgo printing this kind of book when the coding and reading/learning are happening on the same screen. So thanks pydanny for Two Scoops, but I've unsubscribed from your mailing lists and will be opting out of this release.

jayfehr 13y ago
Yeah, I think people just pretty much assume that a programming book would have a digital version these days.

code_chimp 13y ago

Sorry, without an ebook I'm going to pass - I read/utilize most of my tech books on my iPad. I purchased the original as an ebook, and even went back and bought a physical copy to because I thought what Dan and Audrey were doing was pretty cool. I really don't need a second physical book, but could use an updated epub. Too bad.

hysan 13y ago

Well no e-book (my preferred format for technical books) and no shipping to where I live (in Asia) so, despite liking the 1.5 version, I won't be getting the 1.6 version. Not that I have much of a choice in the matter.

Myrmornis 13y ago

Me too, I bought the first and would not have minded paying full price for again for an ebook of the second. It's up to the authors of course. They seem like very nice people online so it's a shame they're getting so much criticism. Nevertheless, here's my bit of criticism: This is obviously BS and so a bit annoying to include: "In addition, the feedback we've gotten has been that technical books are generally better to have in print than as an ebook."

bmoresbest55 13y ago

So would you guys recommend getting this book or going a little bit more cheap and getting the older version?

akulbe 13y ago

I've said as much to @pydanny already on Twitter, but I think it bears repeating. Piracy absolutely does exist, and it will continue. This is the ugly part of society, that some feel entitled to steal and rob others from the fruits of their labor. This is absolutely wrong. That said, it's also not right to punish your honest customers by not providing the material that they are MORE THAN HAPPY to pay for - in the medium they want. I'm not arguing that ebook prep is easy. I'm sure it is very laborious. I have no personal experience with this, so I will take your word for it. That said, you deserve to be compensated for your efforts. If it's more work to do the digital stuff, then charge enough to cover your work. Charge the same price for digital, as you do for print. I know that some will object. I do not. I'd be HAPPY to pay a higher than normal price (since many publishers discount digital vs. print) I understand your discouragement, based on previous experience. I'd be pissed off too. That said, if I were writing, and selling it for profit... I would welcome revenue from as many legitimate sources as I could get it from. Like others, I've moved nearly everything in my technical library to digital format. I don't want to carry a book, if I don't have to. There's enough in my backpack already. Since you currently only offer print for the new version, I bought it. As a paying customer, who wants to support your continuing work, I hope you will reconsider your decision to discontinue offering ebooks. Thanks, Aaron Kulbe

jessaustin 13y ago

Perhaps the authors will do some market research here on HN? I'm not sure what price point would get me to "repurchase" the electronic version, but I'm unlikely to get the paper version until it's steeply discounted.