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“We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” This is my position on the Olympics and basically all national pride. It has not

• nodata 13y ago
  I understand your point, but for the olympics in particular you are saying something different: that someone's training and environment and opportunities in a particular country are meaningless.
  • falcolas 13y ago
    Given how many Olympians abandon the country they represent to train, it is somewhat meaningless. Seriously, if there's one thing I've learned from watching the Olympics, it's that many of the successful ones are enabled by their ability to move away from their place of birth, well, that and good genetics.
    • nodata 13y ago
      Well there you go then: the place where they were born determines their drive or ability to move away from their place of birth. It's not random.
• pratkar 13y ago
  George Carlin eh?
• shrikant 13y ago
  I strongly agree with this. Nationalist pride is the Kool-Aid peddled by government and society to get you to conform to their respective agendas and keep you from questioning the stupid shit they get up to. And I really don't mean to come off as a pothead going "It's all a giant conspiracy man!"...
  • dopamean 13y ago
    You guys take this way too seriously.
    • jagtesh 13y ago
      Unfortunately, we're always on our nerves. So pre-occupied dealing with petty things, and on top of that add the troubles of a third world nation (poverty, unemployment, corruption, not so great healthcare). It's only when we get out of that environment do we truly realize our potential.
    • BlackDeath3 13y ago
      You know, I could say that about pretty much anything that anybody has passion enough to argue over, but until I elaborated further my post wouldn't very contributing to the conversation.
  • VexXtreme 13y ago
    Seconded. Nationalism is just outdated tribalism that requires you to put your societal overlords' agendas above your own. When they call for you to go to war and kill your brothers and sisters from different places, you do it. When they ask you to give them the fruits of your labor so they can fund their war games and send your children to die in trenches while shifting wealth from the poor to the already wealthy, you do it. They feed you intellectual manure and try to appeal to your monkey brain to accept them as your tribal leaders and unconditionally pledge your allegiance to them and their purposes. And if you're big enough a fool, you do it (most people are). Nationalism needs to go. There is absolutely nothing honorable in it. It just creates an artificial divide between the peoples of this planet. It all stems from a time when tribalism was needed to survive, and as it happens, evolution optimizes for local problems on the evolutionary curve and some of these features never go away. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we shouldn't cherish our cultural differences. On the contrary, I believe diversity is a wonderful thing and I find it fascinating that nearly every group of people out there has devised their own ways of communication, worship etc. Just don't let that devolve into "we are better than them", as it usually happens.
• exo762 13y ago
  I think that this is not about national pride or nationality. OP is lamenting about lack of opportunities that all Indians face in their country. It's about improvement of quality of live of 1.x billions of people.
• JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Culture is the largest difference between people. We are the animal that can (re)program itself. Nationality correlates to culture greatly. So there is still plenty of difference between peoples of the world. Its silly to ignore this.
  • mildtrepidation 13y ago
    No one is suggesting culture should be ignored. It's pride that's the problem. Did you do something to earn your nationality? Culture in itself is an important difference that makes people a lot more interesting to each other. But the examples given are not the same kind of difference: Olympic swimmers aren't expressing their culture. They're all, by rule, doing exactly the same thing. That the one from your nation does it the best says nothing about your culture, and there's no rational reason that swimmer or you should feel some sort of pride about that.
    • JoeAltmaier 13y ago
      Again, silly to argue that dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, family support are not cultural. They all affect how well that swimmer swims on the day. This is really very obvious, and its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
      • pessimizer 13y ago
        >silly to argue that dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, family support are not cultural. No, it's silly to argue that they are. You've exclusively mentioned virtues that are as common to every culture as they are to every grouping of humans that hasn't been designed intentionally to exclude them. Culture largely consists of meals, hairstyles and clothing, dancing and mating habits, religion and racism, architecture, crafts, holidays, and nostalgia over mass media touchstones or memories of common suffering due to weather, famine, dictatorship, and war. When people speak about culture writ large rather than a specific subset, it's usually when they're accusing foreigners or immigrants of lacking "dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, [and] family support" or explaining why the citizens of one's own country haven't achieved the "dedication, concentration, work ethic, attitude, [and] family support" of some country with more civil rights, and therefore aren't ready for more civil rights.
• jordan0day 13y ago
  I found it interesting that the article called a position like that "downright rude".
• Demiurge 13y ago
  That's a lot like saying, you could be born to any mother. It is simply an accident of birth, who is your mother. Does it mean you shouldn't love your mother, your family, and you don't owe your family for their love and bringing you up?
  • burntfingers 13y ago
    With respect, it's much easier to make this argument [that you are indebted to your mother] if you are privileged to be born to a good mother who loves you and brings you up well.
    • Demiurge 13y ago
      I don't disagree. But, even a bad mother is one who gave existence.
      • btilly 13y ago
        True. But many become parents through bad decisions. Should we celebrate those decisions?
        • Demiurge 13y ago
          Haha, yes. Perhaps I am an accident. I do celebrate it though :)
  • nathan_long 13y ago
    A great analogy. I love my family because they are my family, and I love my country because it is my country. That doesn't mean I should think that either is objectively the best, or turn a blind eye to their faults, or treat others unfairly to favor them. I love my family and country because they are mine, they helped make me, and my memories are with them. Which helps me understand why Brits and Egyptians and Chinese, etc, love theirs. I think good patriotism makes us sympathetic to outsiders rather than the opposite.
• deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
• macspoofing 13y ago
  >This is my position on the Olympics and basically all national pride. I don't disagree but I think pageantry and even national or ethnic pride have a place. I like St. Paddy's day, Robbie Burns parties, cheering for my local sports teams, putting up douchey flags on my car when my team wins a game at the World Cup, etc. At the end of the day, nothing really matters anyway.
  • vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
    Ireland won anything lately ?
    • ibrow 13y ago
      The Rugby on Sunday. They were looking very good actually, might be a dark horse for the Six Nations.
      • disputin 13y ago
        Much like as has been mentioned of Olympic athletes, the local sports team is rarely local. The players are from everywhere except the locality. The only things local are the stadium and the fans. St Paddy's is fun, but I don't understand the ball game cultures at all, laying claim to a team's victory, a sort of socialising a stranger's success. Maybe just an excuse to celebrate on occasion. I simply can't relate. I watch formula 1, but have no attachment to any team or driver. I get excited by a good drive, whoever's. Cultures cross national boundaries - how does a country reconcile national pride with diverse cultures, if the national character is of a certain culture, unless the nation is not the culture, but the system, which will be determined by the cultures, which change, and will therefore change the system, in which case what is national pride of? A team of non-local players? Mind games?
        • ibrow 13y ago
          Think you're over egging the pudding there. Was simply responding to the question "Ireland won anything lately?"
• leobelle 13y ago
  I get the gist of what you're saying, but the reality of it is that nationality matters a great deal. It's part of our identity whether you realize it or not. As many immigrants know too well national identity isn't as arbitrary as it seems. It isn't just the exclusion you will face in your new home, there's a strong internal compass that will always point home for many people. It's part of who we are, and a great deal of people have worked hard and sacrificed much for the sake of their country. This picture becomes clearer with age and experience. I celebrate diversity in its many forms. I like new ideas, learning new and different old ways of thinking and doing, but I also know where I come from, and that's as valuable as appreciating others. Maybe even more so.
  • Joeri 13y ago
    Nationality is not part of an identity, but nationalism is. I mean that there is no single characteristic which applies to all americans, so obviously there is no part of the 'american' identity which derives from being an american national. However, there is an assignment of values that occurs in people's minds of their particular subculture to 'american' identity. Identity is too complex a phenomenon to boil it down to such simplistic notions as nationality or political party. Nationalism cannot express a 'whole' identity, and therefore always forces people to ascribe to philosophies which left to their own devices they would not have supported. And that is how we get wars. Thz nation-state is the modern version of the regional tribe, and tribal culture is what causes wars. In that sense, there is no instrument more damaging to human rights than the nation state.
• smoyer 13y ago
  Hmmm ... it is an accident of birth but I also love my country (at least the principles we espouse). At the same time I'm dismayed by how my government is run on a day-to-day (year-to-year?) basis. So national pride is simply a feeling you have or you don't. Nobel prizes and Olympic medals on the other hand are some combination of nurture versus nature, and while the “We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” quote is factually true, people making that statement should (in theory) have a long list of people who helped them on their way to achieving that dream. Nations which encourage certain behaviors can have an impact.
• gnerd 13y ago
  George Orwell wrote my favourite piece on this issue in his essay, Notes on Nationalism[1]. [1] http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat
• VikingCoder 13y ago
  People shouldn't feel proud of where they were born. They should work to feel proud of the government they have. If your country is decent and just, addresses the needs of the poor and sick, welcomes people of different cultures, etc., and especially if you play an active role in improving your government, there's reason to be proud. If you vote "no taxes," don't volunteer, don't donate, and wave a flag, then you suck.
• rayiner 13y ago
  Race and ethnicity is an accident of birth. Nationality is shared culture, values, beliefs, and institutions. I spent the first five years of my life in Thailand and Bangladesh. My parents spent the first forty of theirs in Bangladesh. My ethnicity is fixed by that. But when we came to the U.S., we happily embraced the culture and values of the country. And having been in a position to compare them, I think it's foolish to say those have nothing to do with anything and are nothing to be proud of. Why do Indians and other people from the subcontinent thrive more often in America than in their home countries? Because nationality does matter. Because while you can hold whatever beliefs and attitudes you want, your personal success and ability to achieve depends on the prevailing culture. The culture of your school work place, teachers, friends, potential employees, government. And American culture and institutions are conducive to success in a way success in ways Indian culture and institutions aren't. And that's something to be proud of. That's not something that arises passively. That's some thing we work together to build and nurture. That's something people fought for. The people who struggled to fight racism and sexism or corruption or lack of education, or the numerous other scourges still deeply ingrained in India, contributed something lasting to our culture, something that continues to accrue benefits to people who live here and adopt our ways.
  • VexXtreme 13y ago
    It's one thing to recognize your civilizational and societal achievements as good, useful and constructive and therefore love them and cherish them. Nothing wrong with positive self evaluation. Whoever sees a problem with that is an anti-intellectual. However, for most people national pride is something that manifests as "we are better than them" and allows them to engage in all kinds of atrocities against other people because "they're outsiders/they're not us". It's very easy to justify all kinds of things when you adopt "us vs them" mentality. Gotta be careful. Since most people can't be counted on to be well behaved and not let their pride devolve into justifications for colonization/genocide/ethnic violence, it's best to keep those feelings down to a minimum.
• dharmach 13y ago
  Though one's nationality may be an accident and one can understand the futility of the pride, how can one ignore the way world treats people based on their nationality?
  • talmand 13y ago
    I agree, based on my experience many of the people who downplay nationality as something significant are among the first to judge an entire group based on nothing but nationality.
• Aloisius 13y ago
  Ethnicity is an accident of birth. Nationality can be chosen. Indeed it was chosen by Nobel laureate who made the quote.
  • dpeck 13y ago
    Nationality can be chosen by people like Nobel Laureates who can move anywhere, for most people they're more or less stuck where they started unless they get lucky in a lottery
    • Aloisius 13y ago
      The gentleman was not a Nobel laureate at the time of course. He came here for his graduate degree and stayed. But you're right, unless you happen to be born gifted or are exceptionally driven (to the point where you'd migrate illegally for instance), you're stuck.
• Tycho 13y ago
  I find the Olympics unbelievably tedious. It's just physical trials. Wanting your country to win is fine as long as you don't take it too seriously.
• coldtea 13y ago
  >“We are all human beings, and our nationality is simply an accident of birth.” Well, this is obviously wrong. Birth is not just a random momentary thing. It involves your parents. And they already had a nationality too. You couldn't have been born by any two random other people and still be the same person (DNA, childhood raising, education, food, native language, et al). Second, you is not your birth only. It's also your upbringing, the culture you grew up in, the state/legal/etc environment you were raise, the language you spoke, the cuisine you were raised with, heck, even the national TV channels you were watching while growing up. Would anybody dare to say the same thing to a black person? Nah, your culture and stuff is nothing, you could just as well be white? He'd be totally right to tell you to fuck off, for he has lived his culture (including bad treatment by white folks) all his life -- he knows that he being black wasn't just some "accident of birth", but an identity. Even a kid grewing up in Brooklyn by European Jews owes a lot to both Brooklyn and to him descending from European Jews (just ask Woody Allen). It's also a potentially harmful way to see things. It's basically just an excuse to feel independent and non-connected and owning solidarity to anyone. Home country in danger? "Fuck it, I'll just flee. After all, it's only me, me, me that matters". (You can feel solidarity for other nationalities and countries while also feeling pride and solidarity for your own people. Feeling solidarity for other people when you don't even care about your own is a little more difficult, despite those people paying lip service to "we're all one").
  • chrisrogers 13y ago
    Identity in total is obviously more gray than the one sentence can provide, but its sentiment is important. And that's all it obviously is -- sentiment -- not a statement of fact. The world is an awfully large place, but its cultures are more widely distributed than ever before. Therefore a citizen has much better opportunity to form a morality or philosophy that is independent of the place they live. That is the sentiment, free and able to join your other points of cultural context.
  • mindcrime 13y ago
    Well, this is obviously wrong. Well, despite how obvious it is to you, you totally failed to convince me. Home country in danger? "Fuck it, I'll just flee. After all, it's only me, me, me that matters" Yes, and? Nationalism is the problem, not the solution. Oh, I understand the reasons articulated by the evolutionary psychologists for why humans are cliquish and tribal, and that all makes perfect sense. But we have the capacity for logic and higher order reasoning and we can transcend primal instincts like that if we want. And I think we should.
• jl6 13y ago
  If you feel pride because of the achievements of your compatriots, you should also feel shame because of their crimes. I guess some people are happy to accept that shame if it means they can share in the pride too. But I suspect most people who feel proud of their country would wash their hands of the shame by saying the crimes were nothing to do with them. Fairweather collectivists!
• enscr 13y ago
  I agree. I think the next phase of evolution should involve transcending international boundaries and working as a planet rather than as a nation.
• medius 13y ago
  I feel the same way about patriotism. It is a sentiment that has served its purpose and it's time to move on.