8 ms·

Scenes from a militarized America

344 points by jamesbritt 13y ago

danso 13y ago
It's hard to imagine the situation getting much better without greater political change. The Second Amendment has made it very difficult for police to casually come in and slap you around, and that's not a bad thing. However, when they feel that they need to arrest you, well, they're going to bring a veritable army to avoid being causalities...and that's kind of reasonable. So what has to change? Hopefully, the non-important and trivial laws (i.e. simple drug possession) are no longer enforced. But do concessions have to be made in terms of citizen gun rights? The police would definitely think so. Meanwhile, while this civic debate goes on, departments are funding these militarized teams. Even if laws are changed so dramatically that these heavy SWAT raids become practically unneeded...you think the middle-managers/deputy-chiefs are going to give up the funds that enlarged their staffing and armories? Or are they going to petition for more trivial laws to enforce?
- baddox 13y ago
  > The Second Amendment has made it very difficult for police to casually come in and slap you around, and that's not a bad thing. I couldn't agree more. > However, when they feel that they need to arrest you, well, they're going to bring a veritable army to avoid being causalities...and that's kind of reasonable. I couldn't disagree more.
  - iamjustin 13y ago
    Are you completely unable to see it from the perspective of an arresting officer? I can imagine not wanting to go arrest certain people without a good amount of backup. I don't think they'd need something like this for most arrests of course, definitely not cc theft, but it's not like the idea is complete without merit. If everybody tried a little bit harder to see things from the point of view of other folks, we'd have way fewer problems.
    - baddox 13y ago
      > Are you completely unable to see it from the perspective of an arresting officer? Of course I can see it from the officer's perspective. The officer is perfectly rational in wanted to be well armed and well supported, to increase his own security. But when that officer is deliberately doing what these officers were doing, I value the security of the victims far more than the security of the perpetrators.
      - iamjustin 13y ago
        Ah okay sorry, yeah I agree with that. I didn't realize what you were saying.
- parsnips 13y ago
  If the historical purpose of the second amendment is to have a citizenry capable of defending itself from unjust government force, and the government is increasingly using unjust force; How does it follow that the citizens need to concede anything?
  - scott_karana 13y ago
    No kidding. There have been cases similar to this (but less dramatic) where the homeowners fired on the un-marked, un-announced police squad, and were (rightly!) vindicated under their states' respective castle or self-defense laws. What a pointless waste of life. Police need to go back to basics.
    - Crito 13y ago
      How do those situations play out such that the homeowner lives to see themselves vindicated?
      - parsnips 13y ago
        Sadly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
    - uxp 13y ago
      > There have been cases similar to this (but less dramatic) where the homeowners fired on the un-marked, un-announced police squad, and were (rightly!) vindicated under their states' respective castle or self-defense laws. There have? Could you please cite them? In reading the Author's book, mentioned at the end of the article, I was lead to believe that the castle doctrine has pretty much eroded to the point that one has a reasonable sense of privacy in one's own home, buy if you're suspected of illegal activity you basically forfeit that right.
      - scott_karana 13y ago
        Sure, here: http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/article_549b0586-cefc-53a2-bd34-80a8f07816b4.html http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/article_549b0586-cefc-53a... Can't see any others at the moment, sorry. You might be right about forfeiting the right in illegal activities, I don't know.
- panarky 13y ago
  > The Second Amendment has made it very difficult for police to casually come in and slap you around The police justified their military tactics by saying they expected some residents to be armed.
twoodfin 13y ago
Aren't there dozens of more appropriate forums and audiences for this kind of thing?
- Goopplesoft 13y ago
  Upvotes decide content. If you don't it belongs here, don't upvote it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- wcfields 13y ago
  I would say that this falls squarely into the consciousness of this forum. On this forum there is non-stop debate on the NSA surveillance and this, while not part of spying, demonstrates the over-reach of government law enforcement.
- jevinskie 13y ago
  I'm finding more long, well written, and significant comments in this submission than most others on HN. As a bonus, the top post isn't someone saying "Yeah that's great but here is my controversial opinion about this one minor part of your blog post" that derails the discussion. =)
carsongross 13y ago
There is an interesting convergence amongst the hard left, libertarians and old right on police. Really, it's mostly neo-cons and blue-collar dems that are left in the instinctively pro-cop camp, and blue-collar dems are getting decimated by the ongoing economic crisis. Interesting.
- baddox 13y ago
  It's probably still worthwhile to analyze the different proposed solutions from the hard left and libertarians.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  Was under impression that strongest supporters of police state are 'suburban soccer moms'.
  - pekk 13y ago
    Your analysis would be stronger if you differentiated between "police state" and "police services"
    - rch 13y ago
      At a 'town hall' in Golden about 10 years ago, someone from Tom Tancredo's office indicated that was willing to accept lethal collateral damage in the regular course of law enforcement, including mistakes leading to application of the death penalty. His reasoning was that people who find themselves faced with no-knock warrants, or falsely implicated in capital crimes, are probably guilty of something even if they are innocent of the matter of present concern. I find that sentiment difficult to comprehend, but I imagine that citizens who only experience the 'services' of police tend to forget that people living a few blocks away may have a very different relationship with law enforcement.
    - deleted 13y ago
ggreer 13y ago
As I said yesterday[1], I think we've reached the point where better enforcement of laws harms more than it helps. A big reason for this is that "crime" is a very broad subject, covering everything from vagrancy to murder. Measures that might make sense against violent crime end up being used for minor violations. Similar to how firefighters, EMTs, and police are separate agencies with different uniforms and vehicles, I wish police were split into violent and non-violent crime departments. It would solve quite a few problems. First, we could have something more nuanced than the typical "cops are bad"/"cops are good" debate. Second, we might see decreases in some types of crime, since minor criminals wouldn't fear informing the Department of Homicide. (Similar to how nobody fears calling the fire department if there's a fire.) Lastly, it would make it obvious where budgets were being spent. Most taxpayers are fine with throwing money at law enforcement, because they think it's preventing violent crime. If they saw how much was going to the Department of Vice, they might have other ideas. Sadly, I doubt this will ever happen. These agencies are too big to change in any reasonable time frame. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7172857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7172857
- unabridged 13y ago
  >Sadly, I doubt this will ever happen. These agencies are huge and there's just too much inertia to change them. This is the power of a 3rd party winning the presidency. All of this force falls under the executive branch whose policy can be changed in an instant. Don't think of it as impossible, 20 years ago Ross Perot received around 20% of the vote. All it takes is someone 3 times more "popular" than Ross Perot.
  - pacificmint 13y ago
    Interestingly enough, the number of non voters in 2012 was higher than the number of votes for either Obama or Romney. So if all the people that didn't vote (many because they feel that their vote doesn't change things anyway) voted for a third party candidate, that candidate would win without having to take a single vote from either of the two main party candidates.
    - 13y ago
joesmo 13y ago
The important thing that I do not think most people understand is that this is routine. It happens every day on numerous occasions across the country. Unfortunately, it seems that this, along with so much else, has long ago become part of our society and culture. Balko's book, "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces" is a great read about this exact subject. In it he addresses the issue with many examples and some ideas on how police forces can (and some have) changed somewhat to use less violent tactics and more community policing resulting in less crime. That's blasphemy to any politician of course who cannot be seen as "soft on crime." The reality is, the "us vs. them" mentality of many citizens nowadays is likely beyond fixing. That is not to say that there aren't a multitude of ideas that could work. Indeed, there are many solutions to these problems, but such solutions will not be pursued. At least they (I assume) got the address right this time. And the son in the bathroom should buy a lottery ticket. Perhaps his divine luck in staying alive (and luck is all that it was) will make him rich as well.
- lostcolony 13y ago
  'The reality is, the "us vs. them" mentality of many citizens nowadays is likely beyond fixing.' I think to fix it you need to first fix the "us vs. them" mentality of many cops.
  - joesmo 13y ago
    Totally agree here. The only way to fix it the mentality for police, IMO, is to legislate police as they will never voluntarily give up the power they have. Unfortunately, this is one of the things I doubt will ever happen.
- rurounijones 13y ago
  http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap is also rather sober reading Each marker can be clicked for further information.
  - joesmo 13y ago
    Great link, thank you. It's quite disheartening to see innocent people put in jail and _sentenced to death_ for rightfully defending themselves against the intruders who do not identify themselves as police before starting their offense. Sadly it is often overlooked that the police is not held accountable by the law. The law allows them to do exactly what they want with little to no repercussions.
kmfrk 13y ago
As Bill de Blasio put it, "you can't break the law to enforce the law".
hawkharris 13y ago
The question is, how will you take immediate action to confront this injustice when you wake up tomorrow morning? I suggest, as a starting point, that we distribute the contact information for the members of the Iowa police department in question (available online) to start a targeted messaging campaign aimed at their households.
coherentpony 13y ago
Anybody got a youtube link? My ad blockers are telling me this is not kosher.
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  Disable it?
dba7dba 13y ago
I think SOME of the cause of the militarization is due to the increased availability of military grade PRODUCTS police has access to. These products are often derivatives of military grade products. The makers of the military grade products need to increase revenue and diversify, which leads to the corporation intensely marketing to the police departments. And once the police depts buy the new shiny toys, they need to have an excuse for using them some how... Just a personal observation.
- couchand 13y ago
  The military also sells plenty of surplus equipment to police departments, often at significant discounts (i.e. cost to the taxpayer).
  - dba7dba 13y ago
    I wonder what the ratio is. I doubt amt military sells is more than what the corporations sell. It's simply because sales people in the corporations work harder than a man in uniform...
    - judk 13y ago
      Military buys from vendors and donates to police, is what parent was saying.
- superbaconman 13y ago
  I'm not convinced this is a bad thing. The average citizen should have just as much contact (if not more) with the local officers than the average criminals. Police are the most likely to move up the political ladder, and the ones who are to protect the local community. If something is wrong or problems are occurring in a state or federal context, these are the people who will be with or against you. People will be less likely to fuck you, if they know you're on their side (looking to protect the community).
- Jtsummers 13y ago
  Not to mention former military in their leadership ranks. Or people who couldn't cut it in the military and wanting to make up for lost time (at least one guy I met in my town, I'd be terrified to encounter him at night for a speeding violation based on the attitude he presented to me while off-duty).
memracom 13y ago
Reminds me of scenes from a Russian TV series about life in Moscow under Stalin. At any moment a bunch of guys dressed in black could burst in, arrest people, cart away papers etc. and there was no recourse. This was the NKVD, later called the KGB. Unfortunately, eventually the criminal gangs discovered that they could do the same thing, and since their victims thought they were cops, the criminals got away with murder, intimidation, etc. After the fall of the Soviet Union, these criminals became known as the Russian Mafia and exported their criminal operations to more lucrative countries like the USA where they still operate today. How hard is it for modern criminals to get a hold of uniforms and vehicles to impersonate a police SWAT team?
- lisp-and-seo 13y ago
  I can believe that, especially since NKVD was and Russian Mafia is to this day mostly Jewish.
- AJ007 13y ago
  This is still seen in countries like Mexico. Just last week the NYTimes mentioned mafia dressed as Italian policemen dumping toxic waste ( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/world/europe/beneath-southern-italy-a-deadly-mob-legacy.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/world/europe/beneath-south... ) The uses are for more than violence.
- taivare 13y ago
  The underground movie 'Faces of Death' had a scene in which the authorities showed up to a small village household . In the Eighties, in a eastern block country (unnamed) .Took the head of household out, and drag & quartered the guy in front of his family. I forgot the amount ,taxes owed but it was low.Due to political pressure from the West,the actions were halted.
  - darrenkopp 13y ago
    It was less than $2 USD.
tinalumfoil 13y ago
The fact that 2 people were arrested on charges makes me think these people are playing dumb. Would they have been arrested if they knocked first. No expectation was given to way she was housing 2 criminals. Also, the whole "if they saw me with the gun they would of shot me" thing is bullshit. SWAT teams deal with armed criminals all the time and never shoot first (especially since it's a pistol and their wearing bulletproof everything). I can't really comment on if the force they used was too great, as they didn't say what they thought they were up against. Assuming they were justified in their force and paid all damages, I do not see an issue with this.
- drjesusphd 13y ago
  > Would they have been arrested if they knocked first. No expectation was given to way she was housing 2 criminals. This is not a complete thought. Please gather yourself and try again.
- aestra 13y ago
  Swat teams never shoot first? Wrong. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizon... http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/ http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_m... http://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/21/connecticut-swat-team-raids-home-with-armored-car-shoots-and-kills-unarmed-occupant-and-pay-millions-in-damages-but-lead-officer-given-award-for-his-role-in-the-raid/ http://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/21/connecticut-swat-team-r... http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-raids-2012-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-r... http://rt.com/usa/swat-teenage-girl-hughley-906/ http://rt.com/usa/swat-teenage-girl-hughley-906/
Cieplak 13y ago
It seems like posing as the police would be an effective way to execute home invasions, as people that might otherwise defend themselves would put down their weapons.
- zimbu668 13y ago
  Like this: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2011/07/third_home_invasion_by_fake_po.html http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2011/07/thir...
floatrock 13y ago
Opposition to turning our police into paramilitary troopers looks like this: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/were-building-a-domestic-army-marine-corps-colonel-before-concord-nh-town-council.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/were-building-a-domes... After a decade long (non-)war, the US government has a lot of surplus military-grade equipment they no longer need. By heavily discounting it through DHS grants, they are allowing small town american sheriffs to buy Fallujah-grade armored personel carriers. You know, for the teens smoking a joint and the two murders a year that happen in your 'burbs. That's what the marine corp colonel in the above video is speaking out against: > I saw a picture in the Boston Globe during the Marathon Bombing where there was a state police officer– Actually, there were two officers. They both had identical helmets, flak jackets, weapons, everything I wore in Iraq, only it was all blue. The officer on one side had a big patch on his back that said “MASSACHUSETTS STATE POLICE.” Another officer next to him, his patch said “BOSTON POLICE.” > And so what we’re doing here, and let’s not kid about it, we’re building a domestic army... Any decent person wants a police force. But when the police force starts to look and behave like paramilitary storm troopers, that's when you start asking if this is really the land of the free.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  It's all out of scale. You probably know our prison population is 10X to 50X larger per-capita than most industrialized nations. But upstream of that are the police, federal agents, and prosecutors. It takes a huge supply chain to fill that many prisons. There are 100 Assistant US Attorneys in Massachusetts, a relatively sane place where the mayor of Boston came out against putting military carbines in every police car. No wonder they had the time and resources to drive Aaron Swartz to suicide. Upstream of them there are hundreds of thousands of armed agents of various federal agencies. That's equivalent to 10 division of soldiers. That's insane. In most municipalities, police are the #2 expense after schools. Not recreation. Not road crews. Not anything else.
ryanmarsh 13y ago
As one of hundreds of thousands of combat vets with PTSD... Let's just say I would die in a raid like that and it scares the shit out of me. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizon...
glenra 13y ago
Is there any reason the cops who pulled down or covered up cameras shouldn't be immediately fired? Is there ANY rational excuse that could be given for that sort of behavior? Pulling down an outside camera seems like vandalism, pure and simple; covering an interior one suggests the desire to commit other crimes unobserved.
- Coincoin 13y ago
  Don't worry, he probably wrote in the report that it was for "security" purposes.
  - jmadsen 13y ago
    This would be true. They would have to work on the assumption that someone was inside, watching them, so they could plan an attack. I would think this would be standard operating procedure, regardless of the reason they were there
    - glenra 13y ago
      Why wouldn't it work the other way? If the cops are present with overwhelming force, somebody who can SEE them coming is much less likely to resist, more likely to give up without a fight. Also less likely to think it's a bunch of burglars breaking in. In just about every movie ever, cutting off the surveillance video is something the BAD guys do - the GOOD guys know they're in the right so they shouldn't mind being seen.
hnriot 13y ago
The story portray the poor family as the victims but it should be remembered that this is a guy who takes a gun to the bathroom. If you point a gun at a SWAT team they will likely shoot you, if you don't have reflexes to drop the gun then that's Darwinian evolution in action. I have little sympathy for someone that keeps a loaded gun with them in such a paranoid fashion.
- iamjustin 13y ago
  I'd say that sounds a little paranoid too, but then it turns out that his door gets busted down by a bunch of people with guns, so all the sudden it's not that paranoid. Just happened in this case to be the police, and not some other aggressor. Not like it's any of your business what he does in his home anyway.
- Jtsummers 13y ago
  He had it holstered. Likely was wearing it and happened to need to take a piss or shit, why would he remove the holster and gun or unholster the gun for what's likely a 30 second event in his day? Not to mention, based on most Army and Marine vets I've met over the past few years, I'd wager the majority carry a gun (barring state/local restrictions) outside their home, and a significant number keep it holstered from about the time they dress until they go to bed. SWAT teams should seriously reconsider violating the law when conducting a raid if they want to avoid being target practice for a trained soldier.
- davidtanner 13y ago
  Lots of people carry in their homes to prevent their kids from accidentally getting hold of the firearm. It's prudent to maintain control of your sidearm on your person unless it's locked up - you'd know that if you had any non trivial hands on experience with firearms yourself.
adamwong246 13y ago
Notice the key word here: "Terrorized"
throwawayHN123 13y ago
USA is worst than taliban....
jmadsen 13y ago
"this was over stolen property" That (slightly misquoted) statement is the crux of the matter; the level of response, from situations like this, to pepper-spraying college students sitting on the ground, has spiraled out of control in recent years. There needs to be a nation-wide effort to retrain police forces in "old fashioned" methods of crisis management, instead of battle armor & bulldoze.
lilsunnybee 13y ago
Breaking News: White person now 'totally terrified' of police

344 points by jamesbritt 13y ago

danso 13y ago

It's hard to imagine the situation getting much better without greater political change. The Second Amendment has made it very difficult for police to casually come in and slap you around, and that's not a bad thing. However, when they feel that they need to arrest you, well, they're going to bring a veritable army to avoid being causalities...and that's kind of reasonable. So what has to change? Hopefully, the non-important and trivial laws (i.e. simple drug possession) are no longer enforced. But do concessions have to be made in terms of citizen gun rights? The police would definitely think so. Meanwhile, while this civic debate goes on, departments are funding these militarized teams. Even if laws are changed so dramatically that these heavy SWAT raids become practically unneeded...you think the middle-managers/deputy-chiefs are going to give up the funds that enlarged their staffing and armories? Or are they going to petition for more trivial laws to enforce?

baddox 13y ago
> The Second Amendment has made it very difficult for police to casually come in and slap you around, and that's not a bad thing. I couldn't agree more. > However, when they feel that they need to arrest you, well, they're going to bring a veritable army to avoid being causalities...and that's kind of reasonable. I couldn't disagree more.
- iamjustin 13y ago
  Are you completely unable to see it from the perspective of an arresting officer? I can imagine not wanting to go arrest certain people without a good amount of backup. I don't think they'd need something like this for most arrests of course, definitely not cc theft, but it's not like the idea is complete without merit. If everybody tried a little bit harder to see things from the point of view of other folks, we'd have way fewer problems.
  - baddox 13y ago
    > Are you completely unable to see it from the perspective of an arresting officer? Of course I can see it from the officer's perspective. The officer is perfectly rational in wanted to be well armed and well supported, to increase his own security. But when that officer is deliberately doing what these officers were doing, I value the security of the victims far more than the security of the perpetrators.
    - iamjustin 13y ago
      Ah okay sorry, yeah I agree with that. I didn't realize what you were saying.
parsnips 13y ago
If the historical purpose of the second amendment is to have a citizenry capable of defending itself from unjust government force, and the government is increasingly using unjust force; How does it follow that the citizens need to concede anything?
- scott_karana 13y ago
  No kidding. There have been cases similar to this (but less dramatic) where the homeowners fired on the un-marked, un-announced police squad, and were (rightly!) vindicated under their states' respective castle or self-defense laws. What a pointless waste of life. Police need to go back to basics.
  - Crito 13y ago
    How do those situations play out such that the homeowner lives to see themselves vindicated?
    - parsnips 13y ago
      Sadly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
  - uxp 13y ago
    > There have been cases similar to this (but less dramatic) where the homeowners fired on the un-marked, un-announced police squad, and were (rightly!) vindicated under their states' respective castle or self-defense laws. There have? Could you please cite them? In reading the Author's book, mentioned at the end of the article, I was lead to believe that the castle doctrine has pretty much eroded to the point that one has a reasonable sense of privacy in one's own home, buy if you're suspected of illegal activity you basically forfeit that right.
    - scott_karana 13y ago
      Sure, here: http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/article_549b0586-cefc-53a2-bd34-80a8f07816b4.html http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/article_549b0586-cefc-53a... Can't see any others at the moment, sorry. You might be right about forfeiting the right in illegal activities, I don't know.
panarky 13y ago
> The Second Amendment has made it very difficult for police to casually come in and slap you around The police justified their military tactics by saying they expected some residents to be armed.

twoodfin 13y ago

Aren't there dozens of more appropriate forums and audiences for this kind of thing?

Goopplesoft 13y ago
Upvotes decide content. If you don't it belongs here, don't upvote it.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
wcfields 13y ago
I would say that this falls squarely into the consciousness of this forum. On this forum there is non-stop debate on the NSA surveillance and this, while not part of spying, demonstrates the over-reach of government law enforcement.
jevinskie 13y ago
I'm finding more long, well written, and significant comments in this submission than most others on HN. As a bonus, the top post isn't someone saying "Yeah that's great but here is my controversial opinion about this one minor part of your blog post" that derails the discussion. =)

carsongross 13y ago

There is an interesting convergence amongst the hard left, libertarians and old right on police. Really, it's mostly neo-cons and blue-collar dems that are left in the instinctively pro-cop camp, and blue-collar dems are getting decimated by the ongoing economic crisis. Interesting.

baddox 13y ago
It's probably still worthwhile to analyze the different proposed solutions from the hard left and libertarians.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Was under impression that strongest supporters of police state are 'suburban soccer moms'.
- pekk 13y ago
  Your analysis would be stronger if you differentiated between "police state" and "police services"
  - rch 13y ago
    At a 'town hall' in Golden about 10 years ago, someone from Tom Tancredo's office indicated that was willing to accept lethal collateral damage in the regular course of law enforcement, including mistakes leading to application of the death penalty. His reasoning was that people who find themselves faced with no-knock warrants, or falsely implicated in capital crimes, are probably guilty of something even if they are innocent of the matter of present concern. I find that sentiment difficult to comprehend, but I imagine that citizens who only experience the 'services' of police tend to forget that people living a few blocks away may have a very different relationship with law enforcement.
  - deleted 13y ago

ggreer 13y ago

As I said yesterday[1], I think we've reached the point where better enforcement of laws harms more than it helps. A big reason for this is that "crime" is a very broad subject, covering everything from vagrancy to murder. Measures that might make sense against violent crime end up being used for minor violations. Similar to how firefighters, EMTs, and police are separate agencies with different uniforms and vehicles, I wish police were split into violent and non-violent crime departments. It would solve quite a few problems. First, we could have something more nuanced than the typical "cops are bad"/"cops are good" debate. Second, we might see decreases in some types of crime, since minor criminals wouldn't fear informing the Department of Homicide. (Similar to how nobody fears calling the fire department if there's a fire.) Lastly, it would make it obvious where budgets were being spent. Most taxpayers are fine with throwing money at law enforcement, because they think it's preventing violent crime. If they saw how much was going to the Department of Vice, they might have other ideas. Sadly, I doubt this will ever happen. These agencies are too big to change in any reasonable time frame. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7172857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7172857

unabridged 13y ago
>Sadly, I doubt this will ever happen. These agencies are huge and there's just too much inertia to change them. This is the power of a 3rd party winning the presidency. All of this force falls under the executive branch whose policy can be changed in an instant. Don't think of it as impossible, 20 years ago Ross Perot received around 20% of the vote. All it takes is someone 3 times more "popular" than Ross Perot.
- pacificmint 13y ago
  Interestingly enough, the number of non voters in 2012 was higher than the number of votes for either Obama or Romney. So if all the people that didn't vote (many because they feel that their vote doesn't change things anyway) voted for a third party candidate, that candidate would win without having to take a single vote from either of the two main party candidates.
  - 13y ago

joesmo 13y ago

The important thing that I do not think most people understand is that this is routine. It happens every day on numerous occasions across the country. Unfortunately, it seems that this, along with so much else, has long ago become part of our society and culture. Balko's book, "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces" is a great read about this exact subject. In it he addresses the issue with many examples and some ideas on how police forces can (and some have) changed somewhat to use less violent tactics and more community policing resulting in less crime. That's blasphemy to any politician of course who cannot be seen as "soft on crime." The reality is, the "us vs. them" mentality of many citizens nowadays is likely beyond fixing. That is not to say that there aren't a multitude of ideas that could work. Indeed, there are many solutions to these problems, but such solutions will not be pursued. At least they (I assume) got the address right this time. And the son in the bathroom should buy a lottery ticket. Perhaps his divine luck in staying alive (and luck is all that it was) will make him rich as well.

lostcolony 13y ago
'The reality is, the "us vs. them" mentality of many citizens nowadays is likely beyond fixing.' I think to fix it you need to first fix the "us vs. them" mentality of many cops.
- joesmo 13y ago
  Totally agree here. The only way to fix it the mentality for police, IMO, is to legislate police as they will never voluntarily give up the power they have. Unfortunately, this is one of the things I doubt will ever happen.
rurounijones 13y ago
http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap is also rather sober reading Each marker can be clicked for further information.
- joesmo 13y ago
  Great link, thank you. It's quite disheartening to see innocent people put in jail and _sentenced to death_ for rightfully defending themselves against the intruders who do not identify themselves as police before starting their offense. Sadly it is often overlooked that the police is not held accountable by the law. The law allows them to do exactly what they want with little to no repercussions.

kmfrk 13y ago

As Bill de Blasio put it, "you can't break the law to enforce the law".

hawkharris 13y ago

The question is, how will you take immediate action to confront this injustice when you wake up tomorrow morning? I suggest, as a starting point, that we distribute the contact information for the members of the Iowa police department in question (available online) to start a targeted messaging campaign aimed at their households.

coherentpony 13y ago

Anybody got a youtube link? My ad blockers are telling me this is not kosher.

dkuntz2 13y ago
Disable it?

dba7dba 13y ago

I think SOME of the cause of the militarization is due to the increased availability of military grade PRODUCTS police has access to. These products are often derivatives of military grade products. The makers of the military grade products need to increase revenue and diversify, which leads to the corporation intensely marketing to the police departments. And once the police depts buy the new shiny toys, they need to have an excuse for using them some how... Just a personal observation.

couchand 13y ago
The military also sells plenty of surplus equipment to police departments, often at significant discounts (i.e. cost to the taxpayer).
- dba7dba 13y ago
  I wonder what the ratio is. I doubt amt military sells is more than what the corporations sell. It's simply because sales people in the corporations work harder than a man in uniform...
  - judk 13y ago
    Military buys from vendors and donates to police, is what parent was saying.
superbaconman 13y ago
I'm not convinced this is a bad thing. The average citizen should have just as much contact (if not more) with the local officers than the average criminals. Police are the most likely to move up the political ladder, and the ones who are to protect the local community. If something is wrong or problems are occurring in a state or federal context, these are the people who will be with or against you. People will be less likely to fuck you, if they know you're on their side (looking to protect the community).
Jtsummers 13y ago
Not to mention former military in their leadership ranks. Or people who couldn't cut it in the military and wanting to make up for lost time (at least one guy I met in my town, I'd be terrified to encounter him at night for a speeding violation based on the attitude he presented to me while off-duty).

memracom 13y ago

Reminds me of scenes from a Russian TV series about life in Moscow under Stalin. At any moment a bunch of guys dressed in black could burst in, arrest people, cart away papers etc. and there was no recourse. This was the NKVD, later called the KGB. Unfortunately, eventually the criminal gangs discovered that they could do the same thing, and since their victims thought they were cops, the criminals got away with murder, intimidation, etc. After the fall of the Soviet Union, these criminals became known as the Russian Mafia and exported their criminal operations to more lucrative countries like the USA where they still operate today. How hard is it for modern criminals to get a hold of uniforms and vehicles to impersonate a police SWAT team?

lisp-and-seo 13y ago
I can believe that, especially since NKVD was and Russian Mafia is to this day mostly Jewish.
AJ007 13y ago
This is still seen in countries like Mexico. Just last week the NYTimes mentioned mafia dressed as Italian policemen dumping toxic waste ( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/world/europe/beneath-southern-italy-a-deadly-mob-legacy.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/world/europe/beneath-south... ) The uses are for more than violence.
taivare 13y ago
The underground movie 'Faces of Death' had a scene in which the authorities showed up to a small village household . In the Eighties, in a eastern block country (unnamed) .Took the head of household out, and drag & quartered the guy in front of his family. I forgot the amount ,taxes owed but it was low.Due to political pressure from the West,the actions were halted.
- darrenkopp 13y ago
  It was less than $2 USD.

tinalumfoil 13y ago

The fact that 2 people were arrested on charges makes me think these people are playing dumb. Would they have been arrested if they knocked first. No expectation was given to way she was housing 2 criminals. Also, the whole "if they saw me with the gun they would of shot me" thing is bullshit. SWAT teams deal with armed criminals all the time and never shoot first (especially since it's a pistol and their wearing bulletproof everything). I can't really comment on if the force they used was too great, as they didn't say what they thought they were up against. Assuming they were justified in their force and paid all damages, I do not see an issue with this.

drjesusphd 13y ago
> Would they have been arrested if they knocked first. No expectation was given to way she was housing 2 criminals. This is not a complete thought. Please gather yourself and try again.
aestra 13y ago
Swat teams never shoot first? Wrong. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizon... http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/ http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_m... http://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/21/connecticut-swat-team-raids-home-with-armored-car-shoots-and-kills-unarmed-occupant-and-pay-millions-in-damages-but-lead-officer-given-award-for-his-role-in-the-raid/ http://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/21/connecticut-swat-team-r... http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-raids-2012-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-r... http://rt.com/usa/swat-teenage-girl-hughley-906/ http://rt.com/usa/swat-teenage-girl-hughley-906/

Cieplak 13y ago

It seems like posing as the police would be an effective way to execute home invasions, as people that might otherwise defend themselves would put down their weapons.

zimbu668 13y ago
Like this: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2011/07/third_home_invasion_by_fake_po.html http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2011/07/thir...

floatrock 13y ago

Opposition to turning our police into paramilitary troopers looks like this: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/were-building-a-domestic-army-marine-corps-colonel-before-concord-nh-town-council.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/were-building-a-domes... After a decade long (non-)war, the US government has a lot of surplus military-grade equipment they no longer need. By heavily discounting it through DHS grants, they are allowing small town american sheriffs to buy Fallujah-grade armored personel carriers. You know, for the teens smoking a joint and the two murders a year that happen in your 'burbs. That's what the marine corp colonel in the above video is speaking out against: > I saw a picture in the Boston Globe during the Marathon Bombing where there was a state police officer– Actually, there were two officers. They both had identical helmets, flak jackets, weapons, everything I wore in Iraq, only it was all blue. The officer on one side had a big patch on his back that said “MASSACHUSETTS STATE POLICE.” Another officer next to him, his patch said “BOSTON POLICE.” > And so what we’re doing here, and let’s not kid about it, we’re building a domestic army... Any decent person wants a police force. But when the police force starts to look and behave like paramilitary storm troopers, that's when you start asking if this is really the land of the free.

Zigurd 13y ago
It's all out of scale. You probably know our prison population is 10X to 50X larger per-capita than most industrialized nations. But upstream of that are the police, federal agents, and prosecutors. It takes a huge supply chain to fill that many prisons. There are 100 Assistant US Attorneys in Massachusetts, a relatively sane place where the mayor of Boston came out against putting military carbines in every police car. No wonder they had the time and resources to drive Aaron Swartz to suicide. Upstream of them there are hundreds of thousands of armed agents of various federal agencies. That's equivalent to 10 division of soldiers. That's insane. In most municipalities, police are the #2 expense after schools. Not recreation. Not road crews. Not anything else.

ryanmarsh 13y ago

As one of hundreds of thousands of combat vets with PTSD... Let's just say I would die in a raid like that and it scares the shit out of me. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizon...

glenra 13y ago

Is there any reason the cops who pulled down or covered up cameras shouldn't be immediately fired? Is there ANY rational excuse that could be given for that sort of behavior? Pulling down an outside camera seems like vandalism, pure and simple; covering an interior one suggests the desire to commit other crimes unobserved.

Coincoin 13y ago
Don't worry, he probably wrote in the report that it was for "security" purposes.
- jmadsen 13y ago
  This would be true. They would have to work on the assumption that someone was inside, watching them, so they could plan an attack. I would think this would be standard operating procedure, regardless of the reason they were there
  - glenra 13y ago
    Why wouldn't it work the other way? If the cops are present with overwhelming force, somebody who can SEE them coming is much less likely to resist, more likely to give up without a fight. Also less likely to think it's a bunch of burglars breaking in. In just about every movie ever, cutting off the surveillance video is something the BAD guys do - the GOOD guys know they're in the right so they shouldn't mind being seen.

hnriot 13y ago

The story portray the poor family as the victims but it should be remembered that this is a guy who takes a gun to the bathroom. If you point a gun at a SWAT team they will likely shoot you, if you don't have reflexes to drop the gun then that's Darwinian evolution in action. I have little sympathy for someone that keeps a loaded gun with them in such a paranoid fashion.

iamjustin 13y ago
I'd say that sounds a little paranoid too, but then it turns out that his door gets busted down by a bunch of people with guns, so all the sudden it's not that paranoid. Just happened in this case to be the police, and not some other aggressor. Not like it's any of your business what he does in his home anyway.
Jtsummers 13y ago
He had it holstered. Likely was wearing it and happened to need to take a piss or shit, why would he remove the holster and gun or unholster the gun for what's likely a 30 second event in his day? Not to mention, based on most Army and Marine vets I've met over the past few years, I'd wager the majority carry a gun (barring state/local restrictions) outside their home, and a significant number keep it holstered from about the time they dress until they go to bed. SWAT teams should seriously reconsider violating the law when conducting a raid if they want to avoid being target practice for a trained soldier.
davidtanner 13y ago
Lots of people carry in their homes to prevent their kids from accidentally getting hold of the firearm. It's prudent to maintain control of your sidearm on your person unless it's locked up - you'd know that if you had any non trivial hands on experience with firearms yourself.

adamwong246 13y ago

Notice the key word here: "Terrorized"

throwawayHN123 13y ago

USA is worst than taliban....

jmadsen 13y ago

"this was over stolen property" That (slightly misquoted) statement is the crux of the matter; the level of response, from situations like this, to pepper-spraying college students sitting on the ground, has spiraled out of control in recent years. There needs to be a nation-wide effort to retrain police forces in "old fashioned" methods of crisis management, instead of battle armor & bulldoze.

lilsunnybee 13y ago

Breaking News: White person now 'totally terrified' of police