30 ms·

I'd never thought I'd say this after the years of aggressive (and at times anti-competitive) dominance but I think the world needs a strong Microsoft again. Al

by adamt 13y ago

I'd never thought I'd say this after the years of aggressive (and at times anti-competitive) dominance but I think the world needs a strong Microsoft again. Although Microsoft remains very strong in the corporate world, its presence in the Internet and mobile worlds are now pretty limited and leaving the two power-houses of Google and Apple to shape the industry. Satya has done a good job with Azure, and it will be interesting to see whether he can make Microsoft more relevant to the Internet back into someone that can influence the industry.

moistgorilla 13y ago
I will switch to windows if they make it as easy to develop on as it is on unix. Maybe have a fully supported unix commandline emulator?
- sdegutis 13y ago
  That's the same reason I want to switch to developing for Windows. Except, I don't consider Unix the ideal standard anymore. For instance, PowerShell isn't a real unix shell, but it seems to be a type-safe version of one with first-class access to the platform's first-class API, which is exciting.
  - Aaronontheweb 13y ago
    One other cool technology, originally developed as an OSS project by MSFT employees is ScriptCS: http://scriptcs.net/ http://scriptcs.net/ It can complement or replace PowerShell, but what I really like about it is that it introduces a Python-style C# REPL.
- henrikschroder 13y ago
  You're conflating "easy" with "familiar".
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    No. Unix/Linux and the command line IS easier for development, once you get over the initial learning phase. So many great command line tools and functions, you can get a language, or an environment up and running in seconds instead of dozens of minutes or hours...
- _random_ 13y ago
  80-s want their command line back.
  - c0achmcguirk 13y ago
    Cartoon UI wants it's clicky-clicky and inefficient workflow back.
sdegutis 13y ago
From a technical standpoint, I'd love to see Microsoft starting to gain more traction in the developer world. Coming from Java and Objective-C, I'm pretty excited about C# and .NET, which seem much friendlier towards us developers.
- sremani 13y ago
  Microsoft's handle on language development (thanks to Anders Hejlsberg) is the best in the industry.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    Thanks to Don Syme? F# surpasses C# as a language, and a lot of the CLRs power comes from proper generics. And Simon Peyton Jones (Haskell is pretty neat, isn't it)? C#'s a nice contender against Java, but in my hindsight, it had an overly limited vision.
    - _random_ 13y ago
      Are you saying that F# is a more radical departure from OCAML then C# is from Java?
    - ygra 13y ago
      C# is a pragmatic language. It never was about pushing boundaries.
- Iftheshoefits 13y ago
  Depends on who "us developers" is. Not all development is for Yet Another Corporate CRUD App (dressed up as some fancy groundbreaking tech). I'd argue they already have a significant presence in that particular "developer world" anyway. The vast majority of software run on enterprise desktop systems is Microsoft software, customized and extended in some cases by in-house (or contracted) development using the very walled-garden Microsoft suite of software/languages/compilers. MS's offerings in that arena are at least as good as any other, if not superior, and I think far superior to the latest fad of (ab)using the web browser as a One Size Fits All application platform.
taylodl 13y ago
Why? What good would a strong Microsoft provide us? What void would that fill? We've been there, done that and frankly, I don't care to go back. They abused their power when they had it and I have no intent of giving it back to them to give them another crack at it. No, I much prefer today's world of Google, Apple, Samsung and FOSS in all its myriad forms battling it out. There's more developer frameworks than ever available to us. More languages. More everything. No. I don't want to go back.
- romanovcode 13y ago
  .NET, C# and Visual Studio
  - CmonDev 13y ago
    Yes, the only reasonable alternative is Scala but there is no IDE for it to match VS and there won't be.
    - streblo 13y ago
      IntelliJ IDEA is a really fantastic IDE for Scala/Java. I haven't used VS in ~6 years (and back then not deeply) so I don't have a great basis of comparison. But IntelliJ does a fantastic job and it's steadily improved over the years.
      - romanovcode 13y ago
        Yea, It's pretty good. But believe me - it has nothing on VS2013.
        frowaway001 13y ago
        I'm always surprised when C# developers think VS is the best thing ever. Having used multiple languages and technologies, I'm not even slightly impressed by VS.
shmerl 13y ago
> I think the world needs a strong Microsoft again Why? A strong anti-competitive troll/racketeer which fights open standards and etc. is not something the world really needs.
- gress 13y ago
  They were only able to be a racketeer when they had near monopoly power. Now Google is in that role and we need someone to keep them in check.
  - shmerl 13y ago
    No, it's like saying that since there are powers with nuclear weapons we need more of them to keep them in check.
    - gress 13y ago
      If you're going to use that analogy then I do think it's better to have more than one such power.
      - shmerl 13y ago
        The problem is, this analogy is not precise. In patent wars it often doesn't work because there are privateers (NPE patent trolls) which have nothing to lose and MS and other patent aggressors readily employ them to do the dirty work for them in order to avoid retaliation. So, the mere existence of many big patent holders does nothing to prevent such threats, and especially for smaller players.
        gress 13y ago
        True - it doesn't reduce the patent threat for smaller players. But it does limit the dominance of any one big player and provide more opportunities for smaller players to participate.
meerita 13y ago
Microsoft = closest company ever made in software. They don't contribute as the rest of the companies and, they take years to advance in many topics. they had their strong with 95, XP, but then...
marincounty 13y ago
The only reason I want them around is for competition.
chappi42 13y ago
>> the two power-houses of Google and Apple to shape the industry and they went in a bad direction imho: - Apple closed down the app distribution process (we don't like what they are saying, let's censor Phone Story etc. etc. ..) - The One of Google graps all information it can reach: the world (how boring it gets), me (nicely aggregated behind closed doors). Meanwhile spamming the world with ads. Regarding the former, governments should enforce a non-exclusive app store policy. Regarding the second, it's more difficult, maybe the Chinese were right to 'shut them out'. Of course I like/kind of depend on some google services. Tricky.
zmmmmm 13y ago
> I think the world needs a strong Microsoft again It's extremely dangerous to think if Microsoft as weak. They have enormous profits and revenue - far, far bigger than Google, for example - that are secure far into the future. They are willing to plow this money for an almost indefinite amount of time into any product to brute force it to success (see Xbox) and they are willing stoop lower and employ underhand tactics to an extent that nobody else in the industry will match. So fear not, Microsoft is a long way from weak. We should worry a lot more about the possibility of them actually becoming completely dominant again than we should worry about the relatively benign prospect of them becoming weaker.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  Strong may not necessarily mean "without potential or resources". How about strongly innovative, or strongly visionary? Just a thought.
- brianmcdonough 13y ago
  Agreed. Microsoft tried to create a closed system, but they were prevented by governments worried about them consolidating their power forever. Now, we are faced with two closed systems fighting for power, ios and android. Companies like facebook talk about their "mobile moment" the time when their presences on closed systems eclipsed their presence on an open system, the Internet. I long for a time when data flowed freely along pipes and tubes.
  - amaks 13y ago
    How can we be certain that a stronger, with a strong developer engagement, Microsoft will not start creating proprietary closed systems and protocols again, siloing open systems into a closed ones (by using its embrace and extend tactics)?
    - marshray 13y ago
      Disclosure: developer at Microsoft. Microsoft is a big place. I predict we're going to continue to create and ship new stuff, and it will vary in all degrees of 'open'. But in my experience as a 3rd party outside developer, it's pretty rare that stronger engagement leads to things being more closed.
benwilber0 13y ago
lol why do you think "the world needs a strong Microsoft"? Do you think the world needs a string IBM? How about a strong SAP? Or Oracle?
ascotan 13y ago
Microsoft cooked it's own hotdog. They have always been 2 steps behind on virtually every product release. Windows phone - check. Browser that supports modern javascript - check. An OS that looks wonky on the desktop because they're attempting to play catch-up with mobile devices - check. You can probably throw Azure cloud services up there too. If this guy can clean house and run a better ship that what they've been doing, more power to him, but they've got more to worry about that swapping their high paid CEO if they're going to have a future outside of Word, Excel and Powerpoint. (Did I hear "Kin Phone"?)
- CmonDev 13y ago
  Two steps ahead in terms of GUI design though (not talking about applying it correctly everywhere).
  - vetinari 13y ago
    How they could be ahead, when in their design a piece of drawable does not indicate if it is actionable or not? It their mission for minimalism, they threw out a few good pieces. Now they have to figure out, how to catch up and not to blow up in their face.

by adamt 13y ago

moistgorilla 13y ago

I will switch to windows if they make it as easy to develop on as it is on unix. Maybe have a fully supported unix commandline emulator?

sdegutis 13y ago
That's the same reason I want to switch to developing for Windows. Except, I don't consider Unix the ideal standard anymore. For instance, PowerShell isn't a real unix shell, but it seems to be a type-safe version of one with first-class access to the platform's first-class API, which is exciting.
- Aaronontheweb 13y ago
  One other cool technology, originally developed as an OSS project by MSFT employees is ScriptCS: http://scriptcs.net/ http://scriptcs.net/ It can complement or replace PowerShell, but what I really like about it is that it introduces a Python-style C# REPL.
henrikschroder 13y ago
You're conflating "easy" with "familiar".
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  No. Unix/Linux and the command line IS easier for development, once you get over the initial learning phase. So many great command line tools and functions, you can get a language, or an environment up and running in seconds instead of dozens of minutes or hours...
_random_ 13y ago
80-s want their command line back.
- c0achmcguirk 13y ago
  Cartoon UI wants it's clicky-clicky and inefficient workflow back.

sdegutis 13y ago

From a technical standpoint, I'd love to see Microsoft starting to gain more traction in the developer world. Coming from Java and Objective-C, I'm pretty excited about C# and .NET, which seem much friendlier towards us developers.

sremani 13y ago
Microsoft's handle on language development (thanks to Anders Hejlsberg) is the best in the industry.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  Thanks to Don Syme? F# surpasses C# as a language, and a lot of the CLRs power comes from proper generics. And Simon Peyton Jones (Haskell is pretty neat, isn't it)? C#'s a nice contender against Java, but in my hindsight, it had an overly limited vision.
  - _random_ 13y ago
    Are you saying that F# is a more radical departure from OCAML then C# is from Java?
  - ygra 13y ago
    C# is a pragmatic language. It never was about pushing boundaries.
Iftheshoefits 13y ago
Depends on who "us developers" is. Not all development is for Yet Another Corporate CRUD App (dressed up as some fancy groundbreaking tech). I'd argue they already have a significant presence in that particular "developer world" anyway. The vast majority of software run on enterprise desktop systems is Microsoft software, customized and extended in some cases by in-house (or contracted) development using the very walled-garden Microsoft suite of software/languages/compilers. MS's offerings in that arena are at least as good as any other, if not superior, and I think far superior to the latest fad of (ab)using the web browser as a One Size Fits All application platform.

taylodl 13y ago

Why? What good would a strong Microsoft provide us? What void would that fill? We've been there, done that and frankly, I don't care to go back. They abused their power when they had it and I have no intent of giving it back to them to give them another crack at it. No, I much prefer today's world of Google, Apple, Samsung and FOSS in all its myriad forms battling it out. There's more developer frameworks than ever available to us. More languages. More everything. No. I don't want to go back.

romanovcode 13y ago
.NET, C# and Visual Studio
- CmonDev 13y ago
  Yes, the only reasonable alternative is Scala but there is no IDE for it to match VS and there won't be.
  - streblo 13y ago
    IntelliJ IDEA is a really fantastic IDE for Scala/Java. I haven't used VS in ~6 years (and back then not deeply) so I don't have a great basis of comparison. But IntelliJ does a fantastic job and it's steadily improved over the years.
    - romanovcode 13y ago
      Yea, It's pretty good. But believe me - it has nothing on VS2013.
      - frowaway001 13y ago
        I'm always surprised when C# developers think VS is the best thing ever. Having used multiple languages and technologies, I'm not even slightly impressed by VS.

shmerl 13y ago

> I think the world needs a strong Microsoft again Why? A strong anti-competitive troll/racketeer which fights open standards and etc. is not something the world really needs.

gress 13y ago
They were only able to be a racketeer when they had near monopoly power. Now Google is in that role and we need someone to keep them in check.
- shmerl 13y ago
  No, it's like saying that since there are powers with nuclear weapons we need more of them to keep them in check.
  - gress 13y ago
    If you're going to use that analogy then I do think it's better to have more than one such power.
    - shmerl 13y ago
      The problem is, this analogy is not precise. In patent wars it often doesn't work because there are privateers (NPE patent trolls) which have nothing to lose and MS and other patent aggressors readily employ them to do the dirty work for them in order to avoid retaliation. So, the mere existence of many big patent holders does nothing to prevent such threats, and especially for smaller players.
      - gress 13y ago
        True - it doesn't reduce the patent threat for smaller players. But it does limit the dominance of any one big player and provide more opportunities for smaller players to participate.

meerita 13y ago

Microsoft = closest company ever made in software. They don't contribute as the rest of the companies and, they take years to advance in many topics. they had their strong with 95, XP, but then...

marincounty 13y ago

The only reason I want them around is for competition.

chappi42 13y ago

>> the two power-houses of Google and Apple to shape the industry and they went in a bad direction imho: - Apple closed down the app distribution process (we don't like what they are saying, let's censor Phone Story etc. etc. ..) - The One of Google graps all information it can reach: the world (how boring it gets), me (nicely aggregated behind closed doors). Meanwhile spamming the world with ads. Regarding the former, governments should enforce a non-exclusive app store policy. Regarding the second, it's more difficult, maybe the Chinese were right to 'shut them out'. Of course I like/kind of depend on some google services. Tricky.

zmmmmm 13y ago

> I think the world needs a strong Microsoft again It's extremely dangerous to think if Microsoft as weak. They have enormous profits and revenue - far, far bigger than Google, for example - that are secure far into the future. They are willing to plow this money for an almost indefinite amount of time into any product to brute force it to success (see Xbox) and they are willing stoop lower and employ underhand tactics to an extent that nobody else in the industry will match. So fear not, Microsoft is a long way from weak. We should worry a lot more about the possibility of them actually becoming completely dominant again than we should worry about the relatively benign prospect of them becoming weaker.

BlackDeath3 13y ago
Strong may not necessarily mean "without potential or resources". How about strongly innovative, or strongly visionary? Just a thought.
brianmcdonough 13y ago
Agreed. Microsoft tried to create a closed system, but they were prevented by governments worried about them consolidating their power forever. Now, we are faced with two closed systems fighting for power, ios and android. Companies like facebook talk about their "mobile moment" the time when their presences on closed systems eclipsed their presence on an open system, the Internet. I long for a time when data flowed freely along pipes and tubes.
- amaks 13y ago
  How can we be certain that a stronger, with a strong developer engagement, Microsoft will not start creating proprietary closed systems and protocols again, siloing open systems into a closed ones (by using its embrace and extend tactics)?
  - marshray 13y ago
    Disclosure: developer at Microsoft. Microsoft is a big place. I predict we're going to continue to create and ship new stuff, and it will vary in all degrees of 'open'. But in my experience as a 3rd party outside developer, it's pretty rare that stronger engagement leads to things being more closed.

benwilber0 13y ago

lol why do you think "the world needs a strong Microsoft"? Do you think the world needs a string IBM? How about a strong SAP? Or Oracle?

ascotan 13y ago

Microsoft cooked it's own hotdog. They have always been 2 steps behind on virtually every product release. Windows phone - check. Browser that supports modern javascript - check. An OS that looks wonky on the desktop because they're attempting to play catch-up with mobile devices - check. You can probably throw Azure cloud services up there too. If this guy can clean house and run a better ship that what they've been doing, more power to him, but they've got more to worry about that swapping their high paid CEO if they're going to have a future outside of Word, Excel and Powerpoint. (Did I hear "Kin Phone"?)

CmonDev 13y ago
Two steps ahead in terms of GUI design though (not talking about applying it correctly everywhere).
- vetinari 13y ago
  How they could be ahead, when in their design a piece of drawable does not indicate if it is actionable or not? It their mission for minimalism, they threw out a few good pieces. Now they have to figure out, how to catch up and not to blow up in their face.