6 ms·

While I frankly believe that libertarians are idiots and will drag society and social progress into the victorian age (hey, opinion, ok?), I think its important

While I frankly believe that libertarians are idiots and will drag society and social progress into the victorian age (hey, opinion, ok?), I think its important to point out that Steve Jobs @ Apple was not in any way one. I don't believe for a minute that he cared about how much people made and was far more concerned with either employees leaving with secrets, or more likely annoyed that a revolving door of employees between his company and others took time away from getting his projects completed. Apple has no problem paying people, but if they're trying to complete something for particular market opportunity, they probably don't want to waste time bringing new hires up to speed.

coolsunglasses 13y ago
Yet, when I look at the data, Apple engineers get paid below the market average and they work at one of the most profitable companies of all time.
- cbsmith 13y ago
  Considering how many engineers would gladly take a below market wage for an opportunity to work at Apple, I don't think that is necessarily out of line with market forces doing their usual "magic". Even economists would admit that wages are not the sole determinant of where people choose to work.
  - girvo 13y ago
    I was thinking about this the other day coincidentally. The only big tech company I would want to work for is Apple, and I'd gladly take a few tens of thousands less than my already far larger than my living expenses wage to have the opportunity to. I wonder what that says about me?
    - dhimes 13y ago
      I wonder what that says about me For one thing, it says that you are likely young. And I don't intend that as an insult.
      - girvo 13y ago
        Fair! I'm 23, no children, no wife, no particular responsibilities. I suppose that means I can "afford" to take that pay cut and throw myself into something like Apple. The only thing that gives me pause is the reports from those that I know who have worked there is that it's very very demanding, but also very very fulfilling.
        dhimes 13y ago
        Well, if you're going to do it now's the time. I'll have two kids in college next year, and a third in a few more years. That'll probably run about $300K when all is said in done. So taking a few tens of thousands of dollars cut for ten years is that.
    - cbsmith 13y ago
      I think it says that the career ahead of you of greater concern than the paycheck ahead of you (or as another poster put it: you are likely young ;-).
  - discardorama 13y ago
    > Considering how many engineers would gladly take a below market wage for an opportunity to work at Apple Well, then Steve had nothing to worry about, did he? Then why the secret agreement??
    - cbsmith 13y ago
      > Well, then Steve had nothing to worry about, did he? Then why the secret agreement?? Exactly. The motivations behind this practice, the nature of the practice, and the individuals impacted by it are just horribly misunderstood and distorted because the story that big Silicon Valley success stories are making their fortunes by screwing over the "little guy" (whose base salary is at or above the 98th percentile nationally and well above the 99th percentile globally... and that's ignoring bonuses & equity) is just so easy to sell.
  - kenster07 13y ago
    Why are people defending artificially depressed wages? What planet are you from?
    - cbsmith 13y ago
      I'm not defending artificially depressed wages. I'm not even defending what these companies purportedly did. I'm just pointing out that the motivation for and consequences of their actions are being horribly misrepresented and/or misunderstood. As for what planet I'm from... it's the one where the world isn't black and white and employers aren't automatically the guilty of any and all claims they ripped someone off.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    >Considering how many engineers would gladly take a below market wage for an opportunity to work at Apple, I don't think that is necessarily out of line with market forces doing their usual "magic". There's no such thing as magic. This is just as true in economics as in anything else. If wages are down, then either labor supply is up, or someone is cheating.
- smtddr 13y ago
  That's because having Apple on your resume is worth your weight in diamonds. Same thing with Pixar & Lucas Arts(Industrial Light & Magic) if your career is in the digital-entertainment production world. These are especially true as you grow closer to the age of 40. Google is some kind of anamoly where they pay high _and_ are a gold-star on your resume; don't know how that works.
  - shock 13y ago
    Considering that diamonds are basically worthless[1], I don't think that's helping the point you're trying to make. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you...
    - smtddr 13y ago
      Cool, so if you ever get a 100lbs+ bag of diamonds you'll be sure to give it to me.
      - shock 13y ago
        I'm ok with that, but I'm not sure I'd be doing you a favor. I might keep a few rocks for myself to test the theory, though.
    - yen223 13y ago
      I think this Wikipedia article should be pinned somewhere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      Value is not an intrinsic property of a thing, but is determined solely by what someone is willing to pay you for it. I agree that the value of diamonds is an engineered one, but it still doesn't change the fact that people will pay truckloads of money for them.
      - 13y ago
- majani 13y ago
  Apple engineers get paid below the market average HENCE they work at one of the most profitable companies of all time
- dkural 13y ago
  It might be a way to keep out those who care and optimize for that last $5K / $10K and pick a workplace based on that, as opposed to which project they'll be working on for the next five years. If I were Steve Jobs I'd prefer the naive ascetic hacker type who loves the work, and just to make sure I don't get the other type by accident, I'd keep salaries below market.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    Pretty much that It can't be too low as too "worry" the employee or to make him/her uncomfortable living in Silicon Valley For the "paying less" I see it as backwards. Between working at Apple at X and SomeOtherPlace at X+Y the Y may not be worth it. And based on some places I worked, Y may be totally not worth it.
  - soup10 13y ago
    I seriously doubt it. Trying to figure out what a person values may be important in an interview. But I think it's more likely apple has just decided that optimizing the last 5/10k doesn't matter because people will still want to work for them.
- steven2012 13y ago
  A couple of months ago, my friend was offered a job at Apple for 170k + 250k in RSUs over 4 years. I don't think they are getting paid below average.
  - coolsunglasses 13y ago
    Exceptions proving the rule and all that. I'm working with a larger N (glassdoor) for now. What does your friend do?
adventured 13y ago
The only thing I'm familiar with about Jobs that relates to free market ideology, might be Ayn Rand, whose books he supposedly enjoyed. I have seen many people take her books from the point of view of the creator or individualist struggling against the collective. Some take inspiration from that, while disgorging the rest of her ideas. I know many people that blend up a sort of free market economics + social libertarian + limited socialism (eg healthcare) world view.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
mironathetin 13y ago
Had that story already last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7111531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7111531 According to this version, Jobs was a leading figure in those payment-limitation-talks. Indeed, free markets exist in our minds only - until someone uncovers talks and transactions... Shouldn't accept that and a lawsuit is the right move. THIS is also a tool of the free market.
lgieron 13y ago
If it's only about employee retency and not about money, the solution is simple - just pay the employee enough for him to stay (counter the offer competition gave him). No need for illegal conspiracy.
mindcrime 13y ago
and will drag society and social progress ... If your "social progress" is accomplished at the end of a gun barrel, it should be rolled back to the Victorian age, or even the Stone age. What good is social progress without freedom? If we institutionalize the use of coercive force to accomplish social ends, then we're a fucked society anyway.

coolsunglasses 13y ago

Yet, when I look at the data, Apple engineers get paid below the market average and they work at one of the most profitable companies of all time.

cbsmith 13y ago
Considering how many engineers would gladly take a below market wage for an opportunity to work at Apple, I don't think that is necessarily out of line with market forces doing their usual "magic". Even economists would admit that wages are not the sole determinant of where people choose to work.
- girvo 13y ago
  I was thinking about this the other day coincidentally. The only big tech company I would want to work for is Apple, and I'd gladly take a few tens of thousands less than my already far larger than my living expenses wage to have the opportunity to. I wonder what that says about me?
  - dhimes 13y ago
    I wonder what that says about me For one thing, it says that you are likely young. And I don't intend that as an insult.
    - girvo 13y ago
      Fair! I'm 23, no children, no wife, no particular responsibilities. I suppose that means I can "afford" to take that pay cut and throw myself into something like Apple. The only thing that gives me pause is the reports from those that I know who have worked there is that it's very very demanding, but also very very fulfilling.
      - dhimes 13y ago
        Well, if you're going to do it now's the time. I'll have two kids in college next year, and a third in a few more years. That'll probably run about $300K when all is said in done. So taking a few tens of thousands of dollars cut for ten years is that.
  - cbsmith 13y ago
    I think it says that the career ahead of you of greater concern than the paycheck ahead of you (or as another poster put it: you are likely young ;-).
- discardorama 13y ago
  > Considering how many engineers would gladly take a below market wage for an opportunity to work at Apple Well, then Steve had nothing to worry about, did he? Then why the secret agreement??
  - cbsmith 13y ago
    > Well, then Steve had nothing to worry about, did he? Then why the secret agreement?? Exactly. The motivations behind this practice, the nature of the practice, and the individuals impacted by it are just horribly misunderstood and distorted because the story that big Silicon Valley success stories are making their fortunes by screwing over the "little guy" (whose base salary is at or above the 98th percentile nationally and well above the 99th percentile globally... and that's ignoring bonuses & equity) is just so easy to sell.
- kenster07 13y ago
  Why are people defending artificially depressed wages? What planet are you from?
  - cbsmith 13y ago
    I'm not defending artificially depressed wages. I'm not even defending what these companies purportedly did. I'm just pointing out that the motivation for and consequences of their actions are being horribly misrepresented and/or misunderstood. As for what planet I'm from... it's the one where the world isn't black and white and employers aren't automatically the guilty of any and all claims they ripped someone off.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  >Considering how many engineers would gladly take a below market wage for an opportunity to work at Apple, I don't think that is necessarily out of line with market forces doing their usual "magic". There's no such thing as magic. This is just as true in economics as in anything else. If wages are down, then either labor supply is up, or someone is cheating.
smtddr 13y ago
That's because having Apple on your resume is worth your weight in diamonds. Same thing with Pixar & Lucas Arts(Industrial Light & Magic) if your career is in the digital-entertainment production world. These are especially true as you grow closer to the age of 40. Google is some kind of anamoly where they pay high _and_ are a gold-star on your resume; don't know how that works.
- shock 13y ago
  Considering that diamonds are basically worthless[1], I don't think that's helping the point you're trying to make. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you...
  - smtddr 13y ago
    Cool, so if you ever get a 100lbs+ bag of diamonds you'll be sure to give it to me.
    - shock 13y ago
      I'm ok with that, but I'm not sure I'd be doing you a favor. I might keep a few rocks for myself to test the theory, though.
  - yen223 13y ago
    I think this Wikipedia article should be pinned somewhere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    Value is not an intrinsic property of a thing, but is determined solely by what someone is willing to pay you for it. I agree that the value of diamonds is an engineered one, but it still doesn't change the fact that people will pay truckloads of money for them.
    - 13y ago
majani 13y ago
Apple engineers get paid below the market average HENCE they work at one of the most profitable companies of all time
dkural 13y ago
It might be a way to keep out those who care and optimize for that last $5K / $10K and pick a workplace based on that, as opposed to which project they'll be working on for the next five years. If I were Steve Jobs I'd prefer the naive ascetic hacker type who loves the work, and just to make sure I don't get the other type by accident, I'd keep salaries below market.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  Pretty much that It can't be too low as too "worry" the employee or to make him/her uncomfortable living in Silicon Valley For the "paying less" I see it as backwards. Between working at Apple at X and SomeOtherPlace at X+Y the Y may not be worth it. And based on some places I worked, Y may be totally not worth it.
- soup10 13y ago
  I seriously doubt it. Trying to figure out what a person values may be important in an interview. But I think it's more likely apple has just decided that optimizing the last 5/10k doesn't matter because people will still want to work for them.
steven2012 13y ago
A couple of months ago, my friend was offered a job at Apple for 170k + 250k in RSUs over 4 years. I don't think they are getting paid below average.
- coolsunglasses 13y ago
  Exceptions proving the rule and all that. I'm working with a larger N (glassdoor) for now. What does your friend do?

adventured 13y ago

The only thing I'm familiar with about Jobs that relates to free market ideology, might be Ayn Rand, whose books he supposedly enjoyed. I have seen many people take her books from the point of view of the creator or individualist struggling against the collective. Some take inspiration from that, while disgorging the rest of her ideas. I know many people that blend up a sort of free market economics + social libertarian + limited socialism (eg healthcare) world view.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

mironathetin 13y ago

Had that story already last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7111531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7111531 According to this version, Jobs was a leading figure in those payment-limitation-talks. Indeed, free markets exist in our minds only - until someone uncovers talks and transactions... Shouldn't accept that and a lawsuit is the right move. THIS is also a tool of the free market.

lgieron 13y ago

If it's only about employee retency and not about money, the solution is simple - just pay the employee enough for him to stay (counter the offer competition gave him). No need for illegal conspiracy.

mindcrime 13y ago

and will drag society and social progress ... If your "social progress" is accomplished at the end of a gun barrel, it should be rolled back to the Victorian age, or even the Stone age. What good is social progress without freedom? If we institutionalize the use of coercive force to accomplish social ends, then we're a fucked society anyway.