26 ms·

Google permanently bans popular application from Play for not using IAP

693 points by chrisacky 13y ago

Roritharr 13y ago
Upvote. Sadly seems like the only chance this guy has.
speeder 13y ago
There go my idea for profitability out of the window. I am from Brazil, here the only way to pay for Google play stuff is with international credit card, that is quite uncommon here, the result is that here in Brazil I have the highest downloads, but still one of the last places in gross income, the conversion ratio is terrible because people don't figure how to pay. With Google forcing devs to use its billing system, mean the situation is unfixable :(
- ishansharma 13y ago
  I am from India and credit cards are still not that mainstream here. And it is same situation. Everyone has a debit card but Apple and Google both refuse to accept them for their stores (last time I checked, same with Windows Phone, though Microsoft at least accepts them for Windows, Office and Skydrive stuff!)
  - vetinari 13y ago
    Are you sure about that? Are the debit cards issued by Visa or Mastercard? Where I'm (EU), both Apple and Google do accept debit cards.
    - darklajid 13y ago
      Where I am (EU) Google does not, last time I checked. Debit Card from Visa or Mastercard? Why.. would you do that? The debit card I know (and I assume that's what the GP talks about) is from your bank. Works fine everywhere in the EU, breaks for crappy online services/US centric payment solutions. Heck, Paypal uses my account just fine and doesn't require a CC.
      - andypants 13y ago
        Google accepts my UK debit card, and I've never had problems using it online. > Debit Card from Visa or Mastercard? Why.. would you do that? What do you mean? The bank-issued debit cards you are talking about may also be Visa or Mastercard debit cards.
        darklajid 13y ago
        Hmm.. Interesting. After years of having a 'Maestro' supported card I learned _now_ that this is handled by Mastercard. But .. usually that's still not accepted online. My latest card (got it for 2 month or so) lists VPay (aka Visa) now. That said, before I got the card I haven't seen VPay anywhere, at all - and I still don't know why I'd want that, if I care and if THAT now works online, in a decent way. So I guess all my cards so far were technically Mastercard backed - but still utterly useless online.
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        "Credit cards" are also issued by banks. Visa and Mastercard are just brands and payment networks, not financial institutions themselves. For a long time now (better part of 20 years?) US banks have commonly issued debit cards that can also be used as if they were Visa- or Mastercard-branded credit cards. They come out of the same number space and have little Visa or Mastercard logos on them. The transactions pass through the same networks using the same infrastructure, it's just that when they land at your bank, the number being adjusted is the balance on your checking account, rather than the balance on a revolving line of credit.
        darklajid 13y ago
        Thanks for the explanation. The debit cards I know list your account number (local to the bank) and certainly doesn't follow the format of CC numbers. You can see a very real example on the Maestro page of Wikipedia [1]. I'm with a related bank, my card is very similar to that one. Over here the debit card is usually called 'EC card' (see the logo on the image, plus [2]) and you can pay with it ~everywhere~ (stores, restaurants, parking spots - whereever you expect to pay with a card 90% of the time that's working with these. The 10% are crap, newish and .. want a cc). 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_(debit_card) 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash
    - Adirael 13y ago
      Same here. My VISA (DEBIT) works for iOS purchases. I've used it on different European stores and on the US store too (long ago though).
    - ishansharma 13y ago
      Yes. Debit cards are issued by Mastercard. Though I can't completely blame Google or Apple since our government is a bit protective and requires some extra paperwork. Still, accepting Debit cards would help reducing piracy. A friend wanted to buy some apps for Windows Phone but he recently switched to Android because you can pirate and Windows Phone store didn't accept debit card!
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    >> "Everyone has a debit card but Apple and Google both refuse to accept them for their stores" I use debit cards with both stores and have for years. I used to use Maestro (which is being fazed out but still accepted) and now I use Visa Debit.
    - madeofpalk 13y ago
      Maestro isn't an accepted form of payment for iTunes Store http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5552?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5552?viewlocale=en_US&locale=e... Has to run over Visa/MasterCard/Amex
      - k-mcgrady 13y ago
        They must have changed that. I used it from around 2008-2010. May depend on your location though.
      - darklajid 13y ago
        Your own link states (copy/pasted..) >>> You may be able to use other payment types in your country, like debit and Maestro cards. Too see all accepted payment methods, follow these steps: (Sidenote: "Too see"? I mean.. Shouldn't text be proof-read for these kind of sites?)
    - ishansharma 13y ago
      Are you in India? Because last time I tried, Debit card didn't work for Google Apps (can't say about Android as I don't have a device myself. But several friends have Android and they didn't have any success with debit cards, though they have "free" apps now, thanks to piracy!) and Apple has never accepted it. In fact, last time I called bank to tell that my card was not working for international payments, they plainly said that they don't support Paypal or international payments. To this day, when I try to pay via my debit card, international websites don't accept it! Though I think government/reserve bank has some role in it. In 2009 or 2010, they reduced Paypal to fraction of its usage.
- zura 13y ago
  Same for Georgia (Europe).
- watwut 13y ago
  I have to have credit card solely for google play purchases. It is ridiculous.
- dualogy 13y ago
  Well Bitcoin et al were supposed to "solve" all that, yet here we are 5 years later..
josteink 13y ago
TLDR: Application banned for not using a Google-blessed payment option which Google has not enabled for the country in which the developer actually lives. In that case I guess the only other option is going completely free? How many developers will be willing to accept that position? Do Google really think they can create a thriving ecosystem and market if they start throwing around inconsistent and conflicting rules and enforcement around apps? Yes, inconsistent enforcement sort of worked for Apple, but they at least had a coherent platform. The things they required developers to use were actually available to the them. Google asking developers to use things they wont enable for them is just a symbol of how Google has grown to such a size that the left hand no longer knows what the right hand is doing. This is like watching Microsoft all over again.
- teh_klev 13y ago
  "This is like watching Microsoft all over again." Doing what, specifically?
  - josteink 13y ago
    It's hard to pinpoint exactly, but there was a time when it became clear that Microsoft's actions as a whole were increasingly getting less and less coordinated. They could say one thing on one event, and another division could say something completely conflicting a week or two later. Their execution strategy and ability to put the entire company behind it has been sorely lacking for many years, something even Ballmer recognized before announcing he was stepping down. This is ofcourse 100% subjective and not very scientific, but IMO we are seeing the same trends with Google. They have different divisions saying and doing different things (like here). They have no clear strategy or message about where they're going next. You have the smudge of partially or completely overlapping platforms like Chrome, ChromeOS and Android. For ages you've had Google talk (IM), Google Voice (and or regular SMS depending on geographic region) and G+. Now they've started looking into consolidation, but it took them years. Google is fragmenting at their seams with a myriad of platforms and services, and their attempts at putting things back together seems mostly driven by the G+ initiate, a initiate which has faced massive user-criticism due to the way it is being executed. This feedback, had it been taken to heart, would have led to changes around G+ but so far we've seen none. This is like Microsoft and the whole Metro/Win8 fiasco. They think they're too big to fail and just keep on pushing. All in all, all those small pieces start to add up. A lot of the things we saw with Microsoft, we're seeing again with Google.
linux_devil 13y ago
Don't be evil guys , Google is watching you .
higherpurpose 13y ago
While Apple wouldn't even accept it in the first place if they used Paypal instead of their IAP.
- ishansharma 13y ago
  Isn't that better than working for three years and then getting app removed?
- ytch 13y ago
  But Google usually uses "Android is more open then Apple" as a slogan to attract people, while Apple doesn't says they are open.
  - joelthelion 13y ago
    It used to be true but the situation is degrading rapidly.
  - beaumartinez 13y ago
    Android is more open than iOS. You're conflating Android with the Google Play Store. With Android, you can install apps from more than one store.
    - spacemanmatt 13y ago
      You are always free to publish your own Android app from your website, implement any and every payment method you like, and get filthy rich from it. You don't have to give Google 30%. That's only if you want to get marketed on their app store. Compare to Apple, where there is no choice but sell through the app store. Side-loading is cryptographically prevented. App store or nothing. I'd say Android is more open.
      - RKearney 13y ago
        >Compare to Apple, where there is no choice but sell through the app store. Side-loading is cryptographically prevented. App store or nothing. Sigh… This is just simply not true. Using a Corporate Developer account ($300/yr) you can create applications to distribute amongst users of your origination without the need to list the application in the app store.
venomsnake 13y ago
At least on android he has the ability to sell directly the apk file and be done with it. While sideloading increases a bit the barrier to entry it is not impossible. I do not support google in that case though, but those mini breakdowns of the system are inevitable in the new corporate overlord based world.
napoleoncomplex 13y ago
I know Google's policy on this, but I completely understand where the developer is coming from. Google has been taking a collective shit on every developer out of its list of seller countries[0], which is ridiculously short and hasn't been expanded in god knows how long, and even then, there were only a handful of countries added. On Google's page about seller countries they say: "We're working hard to add more countries, but we're unable to provide any guidance on timelines." No, you're fucking not working hard, you added the last ones a year and a half ago. EU countries are missing, for fucks sake. These are countries where Android has 70, 80% of the market, and you're killing any sensible chance of developers making a living on mobile. And you're not allowing any other payment option, because hey, fuck the developers, they don't need to make a living. And then you send me fucking developer feedback polls year after year, which you seemingly throw in the trash, because every single Android dev I know tells you the same damn thing, let us sell apps, everything else is irrelevant. Wake the fuck up Google. [0]https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/150324?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ... ps. sorry for the language, this has been boiling for more than two years now...
- higherpurpose 13y ago
  Well I can tell you there's at least one country that has paid apps and isn't in that list, so maybe that list isn't updated either. I think you're right about them not moving fast enough with this, though. They've been historically slow with this since the Android Market days. It also hurt them big time that their own payment option in the early days wasn't popular. Things could've been very different for Android revenue, if they wouldn't have forgotten about Google Checkout for virtually its entire life since they started it. They had to invent a whole new payment system (Wallet) to deal with Android payments, after they almost let Paypal be their default payment solution for the store, because their payment system situation was so incredibly pathetic at the time. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-13/paypal-said-to-be-in-talks-with-google-about-handling-android-payments.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-13/paypal-said-to-be-i... http://www.androidguys.com/2011/11/02/signs-of-paypal-found-inside-new-android-market/ http://www.androidguys.com/2011/11/02/signs-of-paypal-found-...
- ucho 13y ago
alkonaut 13y ago
I feel it's an obvious problem that apps that allow IAP are listed as free. Has google or apple fixed this yet? When browsing for apps there you may see a top app being free and another costing $1. You pick the "free" one and it turns out it is useless without an IAP whereas the $1 app perhaps would not. It turns out the free app costs $2 in order to function as well as the $1 app. The consumer friendly thing to do would be to list any app that has any IAP enabled to be listed as non free, either using some special labeling (category "freemium" rather than "free"), or by listing the price as an interval rather than as the minimum. It's come to the point where I really miss the time when many apps existed in two separate versions, a free and a premium version. Would that not have been the solution to this problem?
- ishansharma 13y ago
  Apple has a small note saying "Offer In App Purchases" below "Free" button. Though you have to view the app page for that. In iTunes & Web, there's a section for popular IAP under the app icon.
  - 4mnt 13y ago
    Google has that too on the app page, right below the download button.
    - SquareWheel 13y ago
      As far as I can tell though, there's no way to tell what the IAP are on Android. And because most of them involve buying "gems", I just don't bother with free any more.
  - benaiah 13y ago
    It also shows up as a small + symbol below the installation in the app page and the search page. Anywhere you see a price, you can also see if it has IAP.
- arithma 13y ago
  The two version solution (free/premium) doesn't allow sharing ratings. Developers don't like that, because they want their free uptake to give higher rating to their premium option. Splitting the options up would make perfect sense if the two apps are grouped up in some way.
lucaspiller 13y ago
The relevant part of the Developer Distribution Agreement appears to be 3.3: "Such free trials for Products are encouraged. However, if you want to collect fees after the free trial expires, you must collect all fees for the full version of the Product through the Payment Processor on the Market." http://play.google.com/about/developer-distribution-agreement.html http://play.google.com/about/developer-distribution-agreemen...
- vetinari 13y ago
  The point is, that the developer can't use the Payment Processor on the Market, because Google will not allow him to use it (he is from the "wrong country").
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    Shouldn't the developer have known this through reading the rules of the store BEFORE he/she developer the app? If you can't be bothered to do due diligence before making such a big business decision you aren't equipped to run a business.
    - madeofpalk 13y ago
      As the article pointed out, Google currently features a free app that offers IAP using PayPal. Perhaps the developer did do their due dilligence and saw that Google is (supposedly) OK with it.
      - k-mcgrady 13y ago
        >> "What was most confusing to me is that a similar buying process" He mentions it's a 'similar' process. Maybe there is a crucial difference in the way they are handling things. Hard to tell though as he doesn't mention what the other app is. Still my point stands. If you are breaking a rule because someone else has got away with it you are taking a big risk.
    - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
rplnt 13y ago
I would understand this if they wouldn't allow completely free applications in the app store. But as it is, remove something just because it uses another form of monetization? Why not remove free apps that have non-google ads in them?
- alextingle 13y ago
  Don't give them ideas, now.
deleted 13y ago
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mschuster91 13y ago
Seriously Google, it's time for you to acquire actual customer support! Like with Coinbase, Hacker News is not supposed to be the only place in the fucking world where you get heard as a small fish (Reddit aside)...
st0neage 13y ago
Official app stores are quasi-monopolies and need government control. Think about all the time and work the developer has invested. And can't be possible for google to effectively keep him from selling the app just because they feel like it. If they have an app distribution monopoly, developers have a right to publish their app there. It is not a favor google grants. This is something laws have to enforce as companies like google demonstrably harm this right on their own. It's either this or opening up the app store concept.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >> "Official app stores are quasi-monopolies and need government control." They aren't and they don't. They are a store like any other and the store owner can decide not to sell your products without a good reason if they want to. On Android there are several alternative stores (most notably Amazon) not to mention apps can be installed directly by downloading the APK without any device modification. >> "Think about all the time and work the developer has invested." The developer made this business decision knowing fully the risks involved. >> "And can't be possible for google to effectively keep him from selling the app just because they feel like it. If they have an app distribution monopoly, developers have a right to publish their app there. It is not a favor google grants." See my first point. Google is a store and can reject you for no reason. There are several alternatives to selling through their store. It is a favour Google grants and you have no right to be there. >> "This is something laws have to enforce as companies like google demonstrably harm this right on their own. It's either this or opening up the app store concept." Again it is not a right and the app store 'concept' is open as anyone can create their own store and several have. You can also distribute without a store through your own website. Or you can create a web app. There are plenty of ways for consumers to get your product that do not require Google.
  - st0neage 13y ago
    >> They aren't and they don't. They are a store like any other and the store owner can decide not to sell your products without a good reason if they want to. On Android there are several alternative stores (most notably Amazon) not to mention apps can be installed directly by downloading the APK without any device modification. It's the same as with internet explorer on windows back in the day. google play is preinstalled so that is what the majority of users use. it IS a quasi-monopoly. and with this, googles freedom to choose not to sell a particular app is gone.
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dscrd 13y ago
Perhaps try porting your app to Sailfish (essentially Linux + QT5) and try the Jolla shop :)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- veeti 13y ago
  Yeah, all three Jolla users will be joyed. /s The Jolla store doesn't even seem to support paid applications right now.
jpswade 13y ago
If I were him and the application was worthwhile. I'd open a shell company in another country that is Google approved, then release the application under a new name, under that company. Sure it means jumping through a few hoops to satisfy Google, but it's certainly doable.
- fulafel 13y ago
  Can anyone provide tips on how to best do this? Are there countries with lightweight bureucracy that let you do this over the web and without spending much money up front? There might be a niche for a publisher company here.
  - sergiosgc 13y ago
    Here in Portugal, you can't open a company remotely, but the bureaucracy is light enough that you can do it in person in one day. After opening the company you have to get a bank account, and for that you need a permanent national address. It'll take a couple of weeks for the bank to issue debit cards and online banking credentials. Two weeks and one trip here and you should be all set up. (for EU citizens; non-EU owners incur extra bureaucracy, namely on the banking part of the process)
  - pjc50 13y ago
    UK Companies house has a pretty good web form: https://ewf.companieshouse.gov.uk//runpage?page=welcome https://ewf.companieshouse.gov.uk//runpage?page=welcome ; there's a £15 annual accounts filing fee and extremely minimal bureaucracy. Getting a UK business bank account might be harder. I've heard of people having trouble with this even within the UK.
avodonosov 13y ago
This is a business opportunity for those, who live in supported countries. Sell apps on Google Play for people living in unsupported countries, and agree that you take some % of payments, i.e. act as a distributor. I believe it should not be difficult to formulate such relationship that it will be legal, transparent and reliable for both parties.
- kokey 13y ago
  I had to search through the comments for the word 'opportunity' to find this comment. I share exactly the same thought. It's a relatively straightforward model, and it should be easy enough to advertise for it too.
Simp 13y ago
To be honest, it's a little understandable. Unlike on the iPhone, you can get your software from anywhere you want. You are not obligated to use the Play store to get this app. That being said, would any store allow you to display your product in their vitrine, yet not get a cut when you they sell it for you? Do you think Steam would allow this?
- johnchristopher 13y ago
  Well, there is that store at Redmond where they seem to be willing to pay to get any dev's products in their vitrin :]. They might still get a cut though.
nicholassmith 13y ago
At least when you deal with Apple they don't dress it up, they make it abundantly clear that they'll shaft you if you try and step around the rules, Google danced around it with the rally cry of 'open!' a lot more.
- royprins 13y ago
  Android does allow alternate app markets to be installed or applications to be installed directly. You would never get the reach of the PlayStore, but still this would offer a way around this.
- xanderdimitrov 13y ago
  Google was fine for some time, but their recent (last 2-3 years?) actions and policy have left me completely stunned. Maybe has to do with the influence they have on the Web but it's infuriating to see a self-proclaimed innovation giant to make efforts in drowning the business.
neals 13y ago
So to be clear, you are not allowed any form of payment except Google own payment method? Is that how it is? Or is a developer allowed to combine Google's payment method with Bitcoin, Paypal etc. ?
- babuskov 13y ago
  You are not allowed any other form of payment for apps in the Play Store. The issue here is that the developer cannot create a Google merchant account from his country, so basically he has to give away stuff for free or leave the Android development. Or start a company in the US. Another issue is that Google has worked out payments worldwide for say AdSense, but for some unknown reason this cannot be applied to Android market.
OoTheNigerian 13y ago
And people claim the world is flat. It is not for us that need to jump through hoops just to be on the same 'playing level' with our compatriots overseas. As a Nigerian, you cannot dare build any SaaS application because gateways that support recurring billing do not support Nigeria (and of course many other countries) Basically, the fellow with this problem cannot build an Angry Birds without moving countries or jumping through hoops. This kind of stuff makes me really mad. As an entrepreneur, you just have to keep fighting the obstacles and solve your problems. For my new project, we have had to register a company in the US just so we can use Stripe. We still have more hoops to jump before we are ready to collect money. If I were competing with some other folk, he would be already one moth ahead without having to spend a lot of money and time. It's really fucked up.
- mastersk3 13y ago
  Offtopic: Isn't 2checkout & its recurring module avilable for Nigerian merchants?
  - OoTheNigerian 13y ago
    The one that Nigerians started using recently is Avangate. Just have a look at the pricing. 2CO looks interesting. thanks! I will let my friends have a look. [1] http://www.avangate.com/pricing/ http://www.avangate.com/pricing/
    - mastersk3 13y ago
      That is absolutely ridiculous pricing! I guess there is one gateway anyone can use regardless of country is: http://www.mastercard.com/us/company/en/whatwedo/payment_processing.html http://www.mastercard.com/us/company/en/whatwedo/payment_pro... Ofcourse it does not have a transparent pricing or subscription module, but you could overcome that by integrating with any third party app spreedly, chargebee etc
viach 13y ago
There should be an app market with bitcoin support finally.
puppetmaster3 13y ago
Yes, your echo system depends on Google and now you noticed.
hrjet 13y ago
I for one am eagerly waiting for a Cyanogen Store.
duncanawoods 13y ago
Dare I say it but when a company has a certain level of dominance in a "channel" then they need be subject to regulation. A channel might be any means of reaching customers whether a telecomms provider, a form of media, or in this case, a device app store. The total control a gate-keeper has on the survival of tangentially related companies by eliminating their access to customers is simply not right. They should be held accountable for their incompetence or ill-will.
- parfe 13y ago
  Yeah none of that has to do with android. You can easily install third party apps or entire other marketplaces. IOS on the other hand does have that issue.
  - duncanawoods 13y ago
    What is the market penetration through other stores compared to the pre-installed Play store? - 1:10, more? The total control of Apple is an obvious problem but in practice, dominance despite an 'open market' can be just as problematic. I do believe that success breeds responsibility.
  - alextingle 13y ago
    It is frustrating how few Android developers make their .apk files available directly. I don't use the Google play store, and I often have to hunt around to find .apks on "dodgy" download sites, when the author clearly wants to give the app away.
The_Double 13y ago
Idea: enable extra options for registered users with a "gold" account. Make a simple website where users can create an account and pay for the extra options.
leobelle 13y ago
Small consolation for this developer, but at least you can still have your app get side installed into an Android phone. Something not possible on any other of the other two big platforms (iOS and Windows Phone). I know being out of Google Play means downloads drop to near 0, maybe someone just needs to compete with Google on the App Store. Someone other than Amazon because they have their own IAP policy.
MarkMc 13y ago
I'm confused. Lets say I have a web app where users are billed monthly through PayPal. Now I want to release an Android version of my app that has a 'Login' button but not a 'Sign Up' button (that is, sign up can only be done through the website). Can I keep PayPal as my sole billing mechanism?
- ssijak 13y ago
  Yes, if payments are done through the website and not with the paypal android sdk.
- alextingle 13y ago
  With Google, I fear that depends upon the day of the week and the wind direction.
etanazir 13y ago
Boycott. Don't develop for closed gardens!
qzervaas 13y ago
A common theme that has been appearing is how hard it is to actually speak to somebody about stuff (Apple, Google, Twitter, etc...) when shit hits the fan. I earn most of my income via Apple & Google, but if I want support from Apple, it takes 2-3 days for a response (I've made them 5 figures in revenue in the past year alone). There isn't even a method that I could find for me to contact Google if I have a legitimate seller issue (which I've had, but just give up on), despite earning for them also. The recent story about @N losing his Twitter handle highlighted there's nobody to contact when this stuff goes wrong. It's easy to say the big tech companies can't possibly deal with the sheer number of users they have and the amount of support they would have if it were easy to contact them, but then isn't that the price they should have to pay if they want to earn $Billions?
- natch 13y ago
  I'm surprised you would say it's hard to speak to someone at Apple. When I call their developer support number they usually pick up right away, and if needed they will escalate any issue to the level needed. And then there are the two free DTS incidents you get with membership, those are gold if you ever need them. +1 408-974-4897 (800) 633-2152
  - qzervaas 13y ago
    Sorry, I should have been more clear: when submitting an issue in iTunes Connect.
alextingle 13y ago
It's sad to see Google go from "Do no Evil" to "Pray we don't alter the deal any further" in just a few short years.
- mitochondrion 13y ago
  To be fair, Google's stance was "Get right up to the creepy line and not cross it.", not "Do no evil."
anilshanbhag 13y ago
I just hate this part of Google. I once had my merchant wallet account blocked and they just don't care to give me a reason why it was blocked. I got fed up trying to reach them and finally implemented in app payment using Stripe. This was for Chrome Webstore App.
kelvin0 13y ago
Do no Evil?
deleted 13y ago
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ulfw 13y ago
Yea but Apple is always the bad one and Google never does 'evil'. Hope people start realizing they're all the same.
yaddayadda 13y ago
I'm an Android user who has had a problem with the google app market since I got my first Android phone 2.5 yrs ago. Since they transitioned to Google Play, I haven't even agreed to the new terms of service! Of course, this means I don't get apps through the play store. Instead, I get apps through either F-Droid (https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/) or Aptoide (http://www.aptoide.com/ http://www.aptoide.com/). F-Droid is only for free and open source apps; although I have upgraded to paid versions from restricted apps I found via F-Droid, so don't completely rule it out. Frankly, I don't understand why more developers don't use services like Aptoide. The only negative is that I also like knowing that an application is "the application" it claims to be (not a name-the-same app). So I will normally find a developer's page, then follow their provided link to their Aptoide or F-Droid entry. So quit complaining about google's restrictions and post your apps where people like me can pay you good money for them! If enough developers and consumers go this route then the new g-men will have to adapt to market forces.
downandout 13y ago
This makes a strong case for simply never submitting apps to Google Play. It's easy enough to release them directly and explain to users how to disable Android's default security restrictions. If an app is of sufficient reputation and quality, this won't be a major stumbling block to obtaining installs.
outside1234 13y ago
we'd love to have you in the Windows Phone store. you don't need to use our in-app purchase mechanism if PayPal works better for you.
outside1234 13y ago
Adding payment countries probably requires someone from Google to talk to someone. Google is not good at talking to people. I don't mean that as a troll but an observation - you see this over and over with Google: if the problem requires someone other than a shut-in with tremendous technical talent, they do a poor job of it (customer service, enterprise, support, ...)
- erichocean 13y ago
  Google is not good at talking to people. It goes further than that: Google does not want to be good at talking to people. Whether that is a good decision or not isn't clearcut. Google's position (I think) is that technical competence trumps all, and that end of the day, no matter how much some people whine, most people will go with the better solution whenever it is (a) free, or (b) makes them more money (AdWords). An alternate theory is that Google considers "talking to people" to be legacy baggage from when "normals" reigned supreme, and that the world being (re-)built now is being built, mostly, by and for people who are much more Aspie-like than the general population. To these people, the need to not have to talk to people to get something fixed, or to buy something, or to get from A to B is a feature, not a bug. That's the world they want to live in, and unlike normals (who already have what they want), these people are working their asses off to make it so. It'll be interesting to see how things play out in the long run.
scottydelta 13y ago
Well that's their way of saying that "We can do whatever shit we want, you don't have any power here". They did the same by blocking my Adsense.
booruguru 13y ago
"Thank you for your note. We have reviewed your appeal and will not be reinstating your app. This decision is final and we will not be responding to any additional emails regarding this removal." So that whole "don't be evil" thing was just a crock of shit? Good to know. Thanks, Google.
squigs25 13y ago
Wow, this is crazy. So if your country is not on the list, can you still have ad supported income?
hardwaresofton 13y ago
walled gardens, amiright? As soon as Firefox OS stabilizes, I am moving.
wehadfun 13y ago
How do Asian countries deal with this?
pirateking 13y ago
I'd shut it down and give the products back to the engineers.
ErikRogneby 13y ago
Does Amazon's android app market have broader more EU friendly rules?
mistercow 13y ago
>Thank you for your note. We have reviewed your appeal and will not be reinstating your app. This decision is final and we will not be responding to any additional emails regarding this removal Sounds familiar. I got a similar response years back when I emailed them after they decided that I had committed click fraud (I hadn't) and closed my AdSense account, taking all of my ad revenue with it. Good to hear that Google still hasn't learned how to treat people.
ja27 13y ago
I keep wondering why indie app publishing services haven't popped up to handle this. Publish your app to Google's store through them, under their label(s) and they push 70-95% of the sales revenue back to the developer. Sure it's not a great deal for the developer, but it's a way around the country limits.
- jerf 13y ago
  I thought about this for a moment, but... suppose your company accidentally publishes one app that Google decides is a bad app. It doesn't even have to be "really" bad, Google just has to decide it is. What are the odds they just thwack your entire account and destroy your entire business in one fell swoop? Perhaps some people have a risk threshold that would accept this, but I'm pretty sure this creates a situation in which you are going to be inevitably explaining to quite a few angry customers why you can't do anything to help them. Pass.
gesman 13y ago
It's google's turf. They can screw everyone including themselves and enjoy through the whole process. Either submit yourself to Google's rules or move on to another platform where someone else will eventually and likely will screw you up too. So use other man's platform for what's it good for. Even better - build the better platform yourself and become the king of a game. Until then - you're the little servant in someone else's kingdom. Bitching is futile.
tszming 13y ago
There is an exemption according to the terms [1]: " ..must use Google Play's in-app billing service as the method of payment, except: where payment is for digital content or goods that may be consumed outside of the app itself (e.g., buying songs that can be played on other music players)." [1] http://play.google.com/about/developer-content-policy.html http://play.google.com/about/developer-content-policy.html So I guess why apps like whatsapp/skype still alive since they allow you to use them outside of the android app.
d0ugie 13y ago
If I may defend Google here (and presume to know the actual reason they banned this app), note that the media has been fueling legitimate fears of burglars and perverted hackers spying on everyone's webcams and baby monitors. The app's description promised to enable users to "just spy the world" and "discover nearby webcams." Some of the app's user reviews may have been colorful, incendiary or implying having used the app successfully for something shady or illegal. The app's Google Play google cache: http://goo.gl/m07kMp http://goo.gl/m07kMp In Google's shoes, wouldn't that description alone be enough for you to zap this?
Navarr 13y ago
Linkbaiting title. "Google removes application from Play store for using out-of-app Payment instead of IAP"
gdrulia 13y ago
Just a one more example of how these so called smartphones made the world a little worse than it actually was. It is not a smartphones fault, it just to few people had any influence. If you think about it, when computers appeared, a people built them in the garages, so literally anyone could make a difference. Phones didn't have this stage and went straight to business, big business. So here you have it, couple big brands providing their rules and that's all you have. Even rest of the big players fail to do a significant influence on established brands.
bsbechtel 13y ago
If everyone on here set duckduckgo.com as their browser homepage, you might (that's a big might) get their attention.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  Am I the only one who almost never even visits their homepage? My browser's homepage functionality could be removed and I have no idea how long it would take me to notice. Even then, it isn't currently set to Google.
  - bsbechtel 13y ago
    Haha ok you make a good point. I guess people need to set their default search engine then...
    - BlackDeath3 13y ago
      That's more pertinent to me. However, that would require me to find another search engine as good as (or better than) Google.
im3w1l 13y ago
This is a de facto trade barrier. If you live in a country that can't sell apps, consider asking your country to apply diplomatic pressure through WTO or EU.
e12e 13y ago
According to a comment on the page, the app is now back in the store. No more details as to how or why, but it would appear to be another case of "appeal by (social) media outcry".

693 points by chrisacky 13y ago

Upvote. Sadly seems like the only chance this guy has.

There go my idea for profitability out of the window. I am from Brazil, here the only way to pay for Google play stuff is with international credit card, that is quite uncommon here, the result is that here in Brazil I have the highest downloads, but still one of the last places in gross income, the conversion ratio is terrible because people don't figure how to pay. With Google forcing devs to use its billing system, mean the situation is unfixable :(

ishansharma 13y ago
I am from India and credit cards are still not that mainstream here. And it is same situation. Everyone has a debit card but Apple and Google both refuse to accept them for their stores (last time I checked, same with Windows Phone, though Microsoft at least accepts them for Windows, Office and Skydrive stuff!)
- vetinari 13y ago
  Are you sure about that? Are the debit cards issued by Visa or Mastercard? Where I'm (EU), both Apple and Google do accept debit cards.
  - darklajid 13y ago
    Where I am (EU) Google does not, last time I checked. Debit Card from Visa or Mastercard? Why.. would you do that? The debit card I know (and I assume that's what the GP talks about) is from your bank. Works fine everywhere in the EU, breaks for crappy online services/US centric payment solutions. Heck, Paypal uses my account just fine and doesn't require a CC.
    - andypants 13y ago
      Google accepts my UK debit card, and I've never had problems using it online. > Debit Card from Visa or Mastercard? Why.. would you do that? What do you mean? The bank-issued debit cards you are talking about may also be Visa or Mastercard debit cards.
      - darklajid 13y ago
        Hmm.. Interesting. After years of having a 'Maestro' supported card I learned _now_ that this is handled by Mastercard. But .. usually that's still not accepted online. My latest card (got it for 2 month or so) lists VPay (aka Visa) now. That said, before I got the card I haven't seen VPay anywhere, at all - and I still don't know why I'd want that, if I care and if THAT now works online, in a decent way. So I guess all my cards so far were technically Mastercard backed - but still utterly useless online.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      "Credit cards" are also issued by banks. Visa and Mastercard are just brands and payment networks, not financial institutions themselves. For a long time now (better part of 20 years?) US banks have commonly issued debit cards that can also be used as if they were Visa- or Mastercard-branded credit cards. They come out of the same number space and have little Visa or Mastercard logos on them. The transactions pass through the same networks using the same infrastructure, it's just that when they land at your bank, the number being adjusted is the balance on your checking account, rather than the balance on a revolving line of credit.
      - darklajid 13y ago
        Thanks for the explanation. The debit cards I know list your account number (local to the bank) and certainly doesn't follow the format of CC numbers. You can see a very real example on the Maestro page of Wikipedia [1]. I'm with a related bank, my card is very similar to that one. Over here the debit card is usually called 'EC card' (see the logo on the image, plus [2]) and you can pay with it ~everywhere~ (stores, restaurants, parking spots - whereever you expect to pay with a card 90% of the time that's working with these. The 10% are crap, newish and .. want a cc). 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_(debit_card) 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash
  - Adirael 13y ago
    Same here. My VISA (DEBIT) works for iOS purchases. I've used it on different European stores and on the US store too (long ago though).
  - ishansharma 13y ago
    Yes. Debit cards are issued by Mastercard. Though I can't completely blame Google or Apple since our government is a bit protective and requires some extra paperwork. Still, accepting Debit cards would help reducing piracy. A friend wanted to buy some apps for Windows Phone but he recently switched to Android because you can pirate and Windows Phone store didn't accept debit card!
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >> "Everyone has a debit card but Apple and Google both refuse to accept them for their stores" I use debit cards with both stores and have for years. I used to use Maestro (which is being fazed out but still accepted) and now I use Visa Debit.
  - madeofpalk 13y ago
    Maestro isn't an accepted form of payment for iTunes Store http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5552?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5552?viewlocale=en_US&locale=e... Has to run over Visa/MasterCard/Amex
    - k-mcgrady 13y ago
      They must have changed that. I used it from around 2008-2010. May depend on your location though.
    - darklajid 13y ago
      Your own link states (copy/pasted..) >>> You may be able to use other payment types in your country, like debit and Maestro cards. Too see all accepted payment methods, follow these steps: (Sidenote: "Too see"? I mean.. Shouldn't text be proof-read for these kind of sites?)
  - ishansharma 13y ago
    Are you in India? Because last time I tried, Debit card didn't work for Google Apps (can't say about Android as I don't have a device myself. But several friends have Android and they didn't have any success with debit cards, though they have "free" apps now, thanks to piracy!) and Apple has never accepted it. In fact, last time I called bank to tell that my card was not working for international payments, they plainly said that they don't support Paypal or international payments. To this day, when I try to pay via my debit card, international websites don't accept it! Though I think government/reserve bank has some role in it. In 2009 or 2010, they reduced Paypal to fraction of its usage.
zura 13y ago
Same for Georgia (Europe).
watwut 13y ago
I have to have credit card solely for google play purchases. It is ridiculous.
dualogy 13y ago
Well Bitcoin et al were supposed to "solve" all that, yet here we are 5 years later..

josteink 13y ago

TLDR: Application banned for not using a Google-blessed payment option which Google has not enabled for the country in which the developer actually lives. In that case I guess the only other option is going completely free? How many developers will be willing to accept that position? Do Google really think they can create a thriving ecosystem and market if they start throwing around inconsistent and conflicting rules and enforcement around apps? Yes, inconsistent enforcement sort of worked for Apple, but they at least had a coherent platform. The things they required developers to use were actually available to the them. Google asking developers to use things they wont enable for them is just a symbol of how Google has grown to such a size that the left hand no longer knows what the right hand is doing. This is like watching Microsoft all over again.

teh_klev 13y ago
"This is like watching Microsoft all over again." Doing what, specifically?
- josteink 13y ago
  It's hard to pinpoint exactly, but there was a time when it became clear that Microsoft's actions as a whole were increasingly getting less and less coordinated. They could say one thing on one event, and another division could say something completely conflicting a week or two later. Their execution strategy and ability to put the entire company behind it has been sorely lacking for many years, something even Ballmer recognized before announcing he was stepping down. This is ofcourse 100% subjective and not very scientific, but IMO we are seeing the same trends with Google. They have different divisions saying and doing different things (like here). They have no clear strategy or message about where they're going next. You have the smudge of partially or completely overlapping platforms like Chrome, ChromeOS and Android. For ages you've had Google talk (IM), Google Voice (and or regular SMS depending on geographic region) and G+. Now they've started looking into consolidation, but it took them years. Google is fragmenting at their seams with a myriad of platforms and services, and their attempts at putting things back together seems mostly driven by the G+ initiate, a initiate which has faced massive user-criticism due to the way it is being executed. This feedback, had it been taken to heart, would have led to changes around G+ but so far we've seen none. This is like Microsoft and the whole Metro/Win8 fiasco. They think they're too big to fail and just keep on pushing. All in all, all those small pieces start to add up. A lot of the things we saw with Microsoft, we're seeing again with Google.

linux_devil 13y ago

Don't be evil guys , Google is watching you .

higherpurpose 13y ago

While Apple wouldn't even accept it in the first place if they used Paypal instead of their IAP.

ishansharma 13y ago
Isn't that better than working for three years and then getting app removed?
ytch 13y ago
But Google usually uses "Android is more open then Apple" as a slogan to attract people, while Apple doesn't says they are open.
- joelthelion 13y ago
  It used to be true but the situation is degrading rapidly.
- beaumartinez 13y ago
  Android is more open than iOS. You're conflating Android with the Google Play Store. With Android, you can install apps from more than one store.
  - spacemanmatt 13y ago
    You are always free to publish your own Android app from your website, implement any and every payment method you like, and get filthy rich from it. You don't have to give Google 30%. That's only if you want to get marketed on their app store. Compare to Apple, where there is no choice but sell through the app store. Side-loading is cryptographically prevented. App store or nothing. I'd say Android is more open.
    - RKearney 13y ago
      >Compare to Apple, where there is no choice but sell through the app store. Side-loading is cryptographically prevented. App store or nothing. Sigh… This is just simply not true. Using a Corporate Developer account ($300/yr) you can create applications to distribute amongst users of your origination without the need to list the application in the app store.

venomsnake 13y ago

At least on android he has the ability to sell directly the apk file and be done with it. While sideloading increases a bit the barrier to entry it is not impossible. I do not support google in that case though, but those mini breakdowns of the system are inevitable in the new corporate overlord based world.

napoleoncomplex 13y ago

I know Google's policy on this, but I completely understand where the developer is coming from. Google has been taking a collective shit on every developer out of its list of seller countries[0], which is ridiculously short and hasn't been expanded in god knows how long, and even then, there were only a handful of countries added. On Google's page about seller countries they say: "We're working hard to add more countries, but we're unable to provide any guidance on timelines." No, you're fucking not working hard, you added the last ones a year and a half ago. EU countries are missing, for fucks sake. These are countries where Android has 70, 80% of the market, and you're killing any sensible chance of developers making a living on mobile. And you're not allowing any other payment option, because hey, fuck the developers, they don't need to make a living. And then you send me fucking developer feedback polls year after year, which you seemingly throw in the trash, because every single Android dev I know tells you the same damn thing, let us sell apps, everything else is irrelevant. Wake the fuck up Google. [0]https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/150324?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ... ps. sorry for the language, this has been boiling for more than two years now...

higherpurpose 13y ago
Well I can tell you there's at least one country that has paid apps and isn't in that list, so maybe that list isn't updated either. I think you're right about them not moving fast enough with this, though. They've been historically slow with this since the Android Market days. It also hurt them big time that their own payment option in the early days wasn't popular. Things could've been very different for Android revenue, if they wouldn't have forgotten about Google Checkout for virtually its entire life since they started it. They had to invent a whole new payment system (Wallet) to deal with Android payments, after they almost let Paypal be their default payment solution for the store, because their payment system situation was so incredibly pathetic at the time. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-13/paypal-said-to-be-in-talks-with-google-about-handling-android-payments.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-13/paypal-said-to-be-i... http://www.androidguys.com/2011/11/02/signs-of-paypal-found-inside-new-android-market/ http://www.androidguys.com/2011/11/02/signs-of-paypal-found-...
ucho 13y ago

alkonaut 13y ago

I feel it's an obvious problem that apps that allow IAP are listed as free. Has google or apple fixed this yet? When browsing for apps there you may see a top app being free and another costing $1. You pick the "free" one and it turns out it is useless without an IAP whereas the $1 app perhaps would not. It turns out the free app costs $2 in order to function as well as the $1 app. The consumer friendly thing to do would be to list any app that has any IAP enabled to be listed as non free, either using some special labeling (category "freemium" rather than "free"), or by listing the price as an interval rather than as the minimum. It's come to the point where I really miss the time when many apps existed in two separate versions, a free and a premium version. Would that not have been the solution to this problem?

ishansharma 13y ago
Apple has a small note saying "Offer In App Purchases" below "Free" button. Though you have to view the app page for that. In iTunes & Web, there's a section for popular IAP under the app icon.
- 4mnt 13y ago
  Google has that too on the app page, right below the download button.
  - SquareWheel 13y ago
    As far as I can tell though, there's no way to tell what the IAP are on Android. And because most of them involve buying "gems", I just don't bother with free any more.
- benaiah 13y ago
  It also shows up as a small + symbol below the installation in the app page and the search page. Anywhere you see a price, you can also see if it has IAP.
arithma 13y ago
The two version solution (free/premium) doesn't allow sharing ratings. Developers don't like that, because they want their free uptake to give higher rating to their premium option. Splitting the options up would make perfect sense if the two apps are grouped up in some way.

lucaspiller 13y ago

The relevant part of the Developer Distribution Agreement appears to be 3.3: "Such free trials for Products are encouraged. However, if you want to collect fees after the free trial expires, you must collect all fees for the full version of the Product through the Payment Processor on the Market." http://play.google.com/about/developer-distribution-agreement.html http://play.google.com/about/developer-distribution-agreemen...

vetinari 13y ago
The point is, that the developer can't use the Payment Processor on the Market, because Google will not allow him to use it (he is from the "wrong country").
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  Shouldn't the developer have known this through reading the rules of the store BEFORE he/she developer the app? If you can't be bothered to do due diligence before making such a big business decision you aren't equipped to run a business.
  - madeofpalk 13y ago
    As the article pointed out, Google currently features a free app that offers IAP using PayPal. Perhaps the developer did do their due dilligence and saw that Google is (supposedly) OK with it.
    - k-mcgrady 13y ago
      >> "What was most confusing to me is that a similar buying process" He mentions it's a 'similar' process. Maybe there is a crucial difference in the way they are handling things. Hard to tell though as he doesn't mention what the other app is. Still my point stands. If you are breaking a rule because someone else has got away with it you are taking a big risk.
  - lifeisstillgood 13y ago

rplnt 13y ago

I would understand this if they wouldn't allow completely free applications in the app store. But as it is, remove something just because it uses another form of monetization? Why not remove free apps that have non-google ads in them?

alextingle 13y ago
Don't give them ideas, now.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mschuster91 13y ago

Seriously Google, it's time for you to acquire actual customer support! Like with Coinbase, Hacker News is not supposed to be the only place in the fucking world where you get heard as a small fish (Reddit aside)...

st0neage 13y ago

Official app stores are quasi-monopolies and need government control. Think about all the time and work the developer has invested. And can't be possible for google to effectively keep him from selling the app just because they feel like it. If they have an app distribution monopoly, developers have a right to publish their app there. It is not a favor google grants. This is something laws have to enforce as companies like google demonstrably harm this right on their own. It's either this or opening up the app store concept.

k-mcgrady 13y ago
>> "Official app stores are quasi-monopolies and need government control." They aren't and they don't. They are a store like any other and the store owner can decide not to sell your products without a good reason if they want to. On Android there are several alternative stores (most notably Amazon) not to mention apps can be installed directly by downloading the APK without any device modification. >> "Think about all the time and work the developer has invested." The developer made this business decision knowing fully the risks involved. >> "And can't be possible for google to effectively keep him from selling the app just because they feel like it. If they have an app distribution monopoly, developers have a right to publish their app there. It is not a favor google grants." See my first point. Google is a store and can reject you for no reason. There are several alternatives to selling through their store. It is a favour Google grants and you have no right to be there. >> "This is something laws have to enforce as companies like google demonstrably harm this right on their own. It's either this or opening up the app store concept." Again it is not a right and the app store 'concept' is open as anyone can create their own store and several have. You can also distribute without a store through your own website. Or you can create a web app. There are plenty of ways for consumers to get your product that do not require Google.
- st0neage 13y ago
  >> They aren't and they don't. They are a store like any other and the store owner can decide not to sell your products without a good reason if they want to. On Android there are several alternative stores (most notably Amazon) not to mention apps can be installed directly by downloading the APK without any device modification. It's the same as with internet explorer on windows back in the day. google play is preinstalled so that is what the majority of users use. it IS a quasi-monopoly. and with this, googles freedom to choose not to sell a particular app is gone.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

dscrd 13y ago

Perhaps try porting your app to Sailfish (essentially Linux + QT5) and try the Jolla shop :)

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
veeti 13y ago
Yeah, all three Jolla users will be joyed. /s The Jolla store doesn't even seem to support paid applications right now.

jpswade 13y ago

If I were him and the application was worthwhile. I'd open a shell company in another country that is Google approved, then release the application under a new name, under that company. Sure it means jumping through a few hoops to satisfy Google, but it's certainly doable.

fulafel 13y ago
Can anyone provide tips on how to best do this? Are there countries with lightweight bureucracy that let you do this over the web and without spending much money up front? There might be a niche for a publisher company here.
- sergiosgc 13y ago
  Here in Portugal, you can't open a company remotely, but the bureaucracy is light enough that you can do it in person in one day. After opening the company you have to get a bank account, and for that you need a permanent national address. It'll take a couple of weeks for the bank to issue debit cards and online banking credentials. Two weeks and one trip here and you should be all set up. (for EU citizens; non-EU owners incur extra bureaucracy, namely on the banking part of the process)
- pjc50 13y ago
  UK Companies house has a pretty good web form: https://ewf.companieshouse.gov.uk//runpage?page=welcome https://ewf.companieshouse.gov.uk//runpage?page=welcome ; there's a £15 annual accounts filing fee and extremely minimal bureaucracy. Getting a UK business bank account might be harder. I've heard of people having trouble with this even within the UK.

avodonosov 13y ago

This is a business opportunity for those, who live in supported countries. Sell apps on Google Play for people living in unsupported countries, and agree that you take some % of payments, i.e. act as a distributor. I believe it should not be difficult to formulate such relationship that it will be legal, transparent and reliable for both parties.

kokey 13y ago
I had to search through the comments for the word 'opportunity' to find this comment. I share exactly the same thought. It's a relatively straightforward model, and it should be easy enough to advertise for it too.

Simp 13y ago

To be honest, it's a little understandable. Unlike on the iPhone, you can get your software from anywhere you want. You are not obligated to use the Play store to get this app. That being said, would any store allow you to display your product in their vitrine, yet not get a cut when you they sell it for you? Do you think Steam would allow this?

johnchristopher 13y ago
Well, there is that store at Redmond where they seem to be willing to pay to get any dev's products in their vitrin :]. They might still get a cut though.

nicholassmith 13y ago

At least when you deal with Apple they don't dress it up, they make it abundantly clear that they'll shaft you if you try and step around the rules, Google danced around it with the rally cry of 'open!' a lot more.

royprins 13y ago
Android does allow alternate app markets to be installed or applications to be installed directly. You would never get the reach of the PlayStore, but still this would offer a way around this.
xanderdimitrov 13y ago
Google was fine for some time, but their recent (last 2-3 years?) actions and policy have left me completely stunned. Maybe has to do with the influence they have on the Web but it's infuriating to see a self-proclaimed innovation giant to make efforts in drowning the business.

neals 13y ago

So to be clear, you are not allowed any form of payment except Google own payment method? Is that how it is? Or is a developer allowed to combine Google's payment method with Bitcoin, Paypal etc. ?

babuskov 13y ago
You are not allowed any other form of payment for apps in the Play Store. The issue here is that the developer cannot create a Google merchant account from his country, so basically he has to give away stuff for free or leave the Android development. Or start a company in the US. Another issue is that Google has worked out payments worldwide for say AdSense, but for some unknown reason this cannot be applied to Android market.

OoTheNigerian 13y ago

And people claim the world is flat. It is not for us that need to jump through hoops just to be on the same 'playing level' with our compatriots overseas. As a Nigerian, you cannot dare build any SaaS application because gateways that support recurring billing do not support Nigeria (and of course many other countries) Basically, the fellow with this problem cannot build an Angry Birds without moving countries or jumping through hoops. This kind of stuff makes me really mad. As an entrepreneur, you just have to keep fighting the obstacles and solve your problems. For my new project, we have had to register a company in the US just so we can use Stripe. We still have more hoops to jump before we are ready to collect money. If I were competing with some other folk, he would be already one moth ahead without having to spend a lot of money and time. It's really fucked up.

mastersk3 13y ago
Offtopic: Isn't 2checkout & its recurring module avilable for Nigerian merchants?
- OoTheNigerian 13y ago
  The one that Nigerians started using recently is Avangate. Just have a look at the pricing. 2CO looks interesting. thanks! I will let my friends have a look. [1] http://www.avangate.com/pricing/ http://www.avangate.com/pricing/
  - mastersk3 13y ago
    That is absolutely ridiculous pricing! I guess there is one gateway anyone can use regardless of country is: http://www.mastercard.com/us/company/en/whatwedo/payment_processing.html http://www.mastercard.com/us/company/en/whatwedo/payment_pro... Ofcourse it does not have a transparent pricing or subscription module, but you could overcome that by integrating with any third party app spreedly, chargebee etc

viach 13y ago

There should be an app market with bitcoin support finally.

puppetmaster3 13y ago

Yes, your echo system depends on Google and now you noticed.

hrjet 13y ago

I for one am eagerly waiting for a Cyanogen Store.

duncanawoods 13y ago

Dare I say it but when a company has a certain level of dominance in a "channel" then they need be subject to regulation. A channel might be any means of reaching customers whether a telecomms provider, a form of media, or in this case, a device app store. The total control a gate-keeper has on the survival of tangentially related companies by eliminating their access to customers is simply not right. They should be held accountable for their incompetence or ill-will.

parfe 13y ago
Yeah none of that has to do with android. You can easily install third party apps or entire other marketplaces. IOS on the other hand does have that issue.
- duncanawoods 13y ago
  What is the market penetration through other stores compared to the pre-installed Play store? - 1:10, more? The total control of Apple is an obvious problem but in practice, dominance despite an 'open market' can be just as problematic. I do believe that success breeds responsibility.
- alextingle 13y ago
  It is frustrating how few Android developers make their .apk files available directly. I don't use the Google play store, and I often have to hunt around to find .apks on "dodgy" download sites, when the author clearly wants to give the app away.

The_Double 13y ago

Idea: enable extra options for registered users with a "gold" account. Make a simple website where users can create an account and pay for the extra options.

leobelle 13y ago

Small consolation for this developer, but at least you can still have your app get side installed into an Android phone. Something not possible on any other of the other two big platforms (iOS and Windows Phone). I know being out of Google Play means downloads drop to near 0, maybe someone just needs to compete with Google on the App Store. Someone other than Amazon because they have their own IAP policy.

MarkMc 13y ago

I'm confused. Lets say I have a web app where users are billed monthly through PayPal. Now I want to release an Android version of my app that has a 'Login' button but not a 'Sign Up' button (that is, sign up can only be done through the website). Can I keep PayPal as my sole billing mechanism?

ssijak 13y ago
Yes, if payments are done through the website and not with the paypal android sdk.
alextingle 13y ago
With Google, I fear that depends upon the day of the week and the wind direction.

etanazir 13y ago

Boycott. Don't develop for closed gardens!

qzervaas 13y ago

A common theme that has been appearing is how hard it is to actually speak to somebody about stuff (Apple, Google, Twitter, etc...) when shit hits the fan. I earn most of my income via Apple & Google, but if I want support from Apple, it takes 2-3 days for a response (I've made them 5 figures in revenue in the past year alone). There isn't even a method that I could find for me to contact Google if I have a legitimate seller issue (which I've had, but just give up on), despite earning for them also. The recent story about @N losing his Twitter handle highlighted there's nobody to contact when this stuff goes wrong. It's easy to say the big tech companies can't possibly deal with the sheer number of users they have and the amount of support they would have if it were easy to contact them, but then isn't that the price they should have to pay if they want to earn $Billions?

natch 13y ago
I'm surprised you would say it's hard to speak to someone at Apple. When I call their developer support number they usually pick up right away, and if needed they will escalate any issue to the level needed. And then there are the two free DTS incidents you get with membership, those are gold if you ever need them. +1 408-974-4897 (800) 633-2152
- qzervaas 13y ago
  Sorry, I should have been more clear: when submitting an issue in iTunes Connect.

alextingle 13y ago

It's sad to see Google go from "Do no Evil" to "Pray we don't alter the deal any further" in just a few short years.

mitochondrion 13y ago
To be fair, Google's stance was "Get right up to the creepy line and not cross it.", not "Do no evil."

anilshanbhag 13y ago

I just hate this part of Google. I once had my merchant wallet account blocked and they just don't care to give me a reason why it was blocked. I got fed up trying to reach them and finally implemented in app payment using Stripe. This was for Chrome Webstore App.

kelvin0 13y ago

Do no Evil?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

ulfw 13y ago

Yea but Apple is always the bad one and Google never does 'evil'. Hope people start realizing they're all the same.

yaddayadda 13y ago

I'm an Android user who has had a problem with the google app market since I got my first Android phone 2.5 yrs ago. Since they transitioned to Google Play, I haven't even agreed to the new terms of service! Of course, this means I don't get apps through the play store. Instead, I get apps through either F-Droid (https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/) or Aptoide (http://www.aptoide.com/ http://www.aptoide.com/). F-Droid is only for free and open source apps; although I have upgraded to paid versions from restricted apps I found via F-Droid, so don't completely rule it out. Frankly, I don't understand why more developers don't use services like Aptoide. The only negative is that I also like knowing that an application is "the application" it claims to be (not a name-the-same app). So I will normally find a developer's page, then follow their provided link to their Aptoide or F-Droid entry. So quit complaining about google's restrictions and post your apps where people like me can pay you good money for them! If enough developers and consumers go this route then the new g-men will have to adapt to market forces.

downandout 13y ago

This makes a strong case for simply never submitting apps to Google Play. It's easy enough to release them directly and explain to users how to disable Android's default security restrictions. If an app is of sufficient reputation and quality, this won't be a major stumbling block to obtaining installs.

outside1234 13y ago

we'd love to have you in the Windows Phone store. you don't need to use our in-app purchase mechanism if PayPal works better for you.

outside1234 13y ago

Adding payment countries probably requires someone from Google to talk to someone. Google is not good at talking to people. I don't mean that as a troll but an observation - you see this over and over with Google: if the problem requires someone other than a shut-in with tremendous technical talent, they do a poor job of it (customer service, enterprise, support, ...)

erichocean 13y ago
Google is not good at talking to people. It goes further than that: Google does not want to be good at talking to people. Whether that is a good decision or not isn't clearcut. Google's position (I think) is that technical competence trumps all, and that end of the day, no matter how much some people whine, most people will go with the better solution whenever it is (a) free, or (b) makes them more money (AdWords). An alternate theory is that Google considers "talking to people" to be legacy baggage from when "normals" reigned supreme, and that the world being (re-)built now is being built, mostly, by and for people who are much more Aspie-like than the general population. To these people, the need to not have to talk to people to get something fixed, or to buy something, or to get from A to B is a feature, not a bug. That's the world they want to live in, and unlike normals (who already have what they want), these people are working their asses off to make it so. It'll be interesting to see how things play out in the long run.

scottydelta 13y ago

Well that's their way of saying that "We can do whatever shit we want, you don't have any power here". They did the same by blocking my Adsense.

booruguru 13y ago

"Thank you for your note. We have reviewed your appeal and will not be reinstating your app. This decision is final and we will not be responding to any additional emails regarding this removal." So that whole "don't be evil" thing was just a crock of shit? Good to know. Thanks, Google.

squigs25 13y ago

Wow, this is crazy. So if your country is not on the list, can you still have ad supported income?

hardwaresofton 13y ago

walled gardens, amiright? As soon as Firefox OS stabilizes, I am moving.

wehadfun 13y ago

How do Asian countries deal with this?

pirateking 13y ago

I'd shut it down and give the products back to the engineers.

ErikRogneby 13y ago

Does Amazon's android app market have broader more EU friendly rules?

mistercow 13y ago

>Thank you for your note. We have reviewed your appeal and will not be reinstating your app. This decision is final and we will not be responding to any additional emails regarding this removal Sounds familiar. I got a similar response years back when I emailed them after they decided that I had committed click fraud (I hadn't) and closed my AdSense account, taking all of my ad revenue with it. Good to hear that Google still hasn't learned how to treat people.

ja27 13y ago

I keep wondering why indie app publishing services haven't popped up to handle this. Publish your app to Google's store through them, under their label(s) and they push 70-95% of the sales revenue back to the developer. Sure it's not a great deal for the developer, but it's a way around the country limits.

jerf 13y ago
I thought about this for a moment, but... suppose your company accidentally publishes one app that Google decides is a bad app. It doesn't even have to be "really" bad, Google just has to decide it is. What are the odds they just thwack your entire account and destroy your entire business in one fell swoop? Perhaps some people have a risk threshold that would accept this, but I'm pretty sure this creates a situation in which you are going to be inevitably explaining to quite a few angry customers why you can't do anything to help them. Pass.

gesman 13y ago

It's google's turf. They can screw everyone including themselves and enjoy through the whole process. Either submit yourself to Google's rules or move on to another platform where someone else will eventually and likely will screw you up too. So use other man's platform for what's it good for. Even better - build the better platform yourself and become the king of a game. Until then - you're the little servant in someone else's kingdom. Bitching is futile.

tszming 13y ago

There is an exemption according to the terms [1]: " ..must use Google Play's in-app billing service as the method of payment, except: where payment is for digital content or goods that may be consumed outside of the app itself (e.g., buying songs that can be played on other music players)." [1] http://play.google.com/about/developer-content-policy.html http://play.google.com/about/developer-content-policy.html So I guess why apps like whatsapp/skype still alive since they allow you to use them outside of the android app.

d0ugie 13y ago

If I may defend Google here (and presume to know the actual reason they banned this app), note that the media has been fueling legitimate fears of burglars and perverted hackers spying on everyone's webcams and baby monitors. The app's description promised to enable users to "just spy the world" and "discover nearby webcams." Some of the app's user reviews may have been colorful, incendiary or implying having used the app successfully for something shady or illegal. The app's Google Play google cache: http://goo.gl/m07kMp http://goo.gl/m07kMp In Google's shoes, wouldn't that description alone be enough for you to zap this?

Navarr 13y ago

Linkbaiting title. "Google removes application from Play store for using out-of-app Payment instead of IAP"

gdrulia 13y ago

Just a one more example of how these so called smartphones made the world a little worse than it actually was. It is not a smartphones fault, it just to few people had any influence. If you think about it, when computers appeared, a people built them in the garages, so literally anyone could make a difference. Phones didn't have this stage and went straight to business, big business. So here you have it, couple big brands providing their rules and that's all you have. Even rest of the big players fail to do a significant influence on established brands.

bsbechtel 13y ago

If everyone on here set duckduckgo.com as their browser homepage, you might (that's a big might) get their attention.

BlackDeath3 13y ago
Am I the only one who almost never even visits their homepage? My browser's homepage functionality could be removed and I have no idea how long it would take me to notice. Even then, it isn't currently set to Google.
- bsbechtel 13y ago
  Haha ok you make a good point. I guess people need to set their default search engine then...
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    That's more pertinent to me. However, that would require me to find another search engine as good as (or better than) Google.

im3w1l 13y ago

This is a de facto trade barrier. If you live in a country that can't sell apps, consider asking your country to apply diplomatic pressure through WTO or EU.

e12e 13y ago

According to a comment on the page, the app is now back in the store. No more details as to how or why, but it would appear to be another case of "appeal by (social) media outcry".