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Am I the only one that does not see anything special about those kids? We played with sticks and stones, football, skate, bmx biking, hiking all the time in Sp

Am I the only one that does not see anything special about those kids? We played with sticks and stones, football, skate, bmx biking, hiking all the time in Spain. You got hurt all the time too, but mostly scratches, you understood risk and knew the limits. There were also bullies, but the best thing you can do against bullies is fight them back. There are some places with rules like "no fighting" that ironically makes bullies rule.

girvo 13y ago
That's the point, IMO. It's a return to norms. I don't know about you guys, but I was in school only a few years ago, and my brothers just graduated. We weren't even allowed to play ball sports during lunch/morning tea. It was crap, and so I decided to cause havoc on the school's network (although, 1) thats not a cause and effect, and 2) that ended up with me earning lots of money now...) -- anyway, I agree with you. Also, I fought my last bully back when I was 14, and the teachers let me off entirely. He, on the otherhand, got expelled, as he was constantly doing shit like that. (As a random aside, he's in jail for blowing up and robbing ATMs. Go figure)
masklinn 13y ago
> There are some places with rules like "no fighting" that ironically makes bullies rule. Especially with the usual idiotic companions of zero-tolerance and "it takes 2 for a fight".
mwcampbell 13y ago
> but the best thing you can do against bullies is fight them back. That sounds crazy to me. Doesn't fighting back just escalate things? And do we really want the next generation to grow up thinking that fighting is OK? Will they apply that same pattern when they're adults?
- DonGateley 13y ago
  I wouldn't mind at all if the next generation was more comfortable with fighting. It's a basic human instinct and when basic instincts are completely suppressed pathological behaviors will bulge out instead. The current state of "assault" law is appalling, especially in the U.S. We need to get more than a bit back to what we actually are.
  - mwcampbell 13y ago
    What exactly do you mean by "what we actually are"? I don't want to jump to conclusions and go off in the wrong direction.
- sitharus 13y ago
  Most bullies are power-tripping on the effect they have. Standing up to them is unexpected, they don't know how to react, and quickly back down. It's not worth the risk to put up a fight when you can just pick on someone else. It works when you're an adult as well, though if they're your boss they might fire you.
  - arrrg 13y ago
    In my experience standing up to bullies was always completely useless. I mean, it might work, but wit and physical ability are necessary to make that happen in practice and many who are bullied have neither (I certainly didn’t). Bullies do know very well how to react to someone standing up to them. All my bullies did. It was worthless. I was always unable to do or say the right things to stop them. This always seemed like a useless platitude to me that doesn’t work one bit outside of very specific circumstances.
    - aaronem 13y ago
      Well, sure, fighting back doesn't always work. But even if you failed, at least you tried. Perhaps that's not the best thing in the world for your self-respect, but take it from me, it's a hell of a lot better than not even trying.
      - arrrg 13y ago
        No, trying tends to make things worse, at least in my experience. Someone who is bullied is not good at retaliation. Bullies tend to be super-great at complaining to teachers and getting you punished.
- GrinningFool 13y ago
  Sometimes, fighting is OK. Particularly when the alternative is to get pushed around until an authority figure happens to see and intercede on your behalf. I think it's important to carry that lesson into adulthood, especially as we learn that not all fights are physical.
- ANTSANTS 13y ago
  I grew up in the "zero tolerance for fighting" era. Even if your parents said it was ok to smack someone if they hit you first, it was drilled into kids by teachers and the administration that there would be serious consequences for both parties. All it does is give more power to bullies. They can be jerks out of sight as much as they want, knowing their targets will never do anything to protect themselves. When it happened to me, I was always more overcome with fear that they would kick me out of school and my life would be over than I was scared of the bully, so I never retaliated. Of course, you can't tell the teacher or your parents either. Not only does that make you look like a "wimp," but it's somehow against the code of kids to get an adult involved; you would feel ashamed if you tattled. So instead, you just put up with it, and the school basically enables the bully to torment as much as they want, as long as they aren't dumb enough to get caught. I didn't have too many problems with bullying growing up, but there were other kids that were basically doomed to years of torment because of this, and were seriously screwed up and jaded because of it. Even worse, even most of the regular kids would avoid the bullied kid and talk about them behind their back, partially for fear of retribution from the bully, and partially because kids in general are cruel and enjoy having power over others almost as much as the bullies themselves, so being the target of a bully meant "you endure cruelty and physical violence on a daily basis, you have no friends, you cannot escape, you aren't allowed to defend yourself, and the adults aren't on your side." Jumping forward a few years to being a teenager, a guy I didn't like was being a jerk outside of school, and something inside of me was just so tired of always backing down that I ended up hitting him. We traded blows for a minute or so (we were more thrashing like idiots than doing anything "cool" and actually dangerous you'd see in a movie) before it got broken up. We were barely hurt, no busted lips or black eyes, and neither of our parents ever found out. Afterwards, I immediately had a lot more respect amongst my friends, and I somehow ended up becoming friends with the guy I fought. Guys are funny like that. Random violence and actually hurting people is obviously not ok, but fighting back against bullies prevents them from getting overconfident and lets the bullied keep their dignity. I'm convinced that a more understanding administrative policy and less adult supervision would have allowed most of these problems to sort themselves out pretty quickly, evening out the power distribution in the classroom and making life significantly better for the worst victims of bullying. It probably wouldn't completely solve the problem, for example in the obvious scenario where a group of older kids screw with younger kids outside of school, but at least it solves the horrendous problem we have today where, as I described above, almost an entire class is pitted against a kid. > do we really want the next generation to grow up thinking that fighting is OK? Will they apply that same pattern when they're adults? As I understand it, the past few generations are the weird ones, and kids have pretty much always been allowed to get away with harmless fights. Ask your parents how often many fistfights they've had since graduating high school.
- njharman 13y ago
  Fighting is ok. Esp fighting back. It is, occasionally, necessary. Fighting is not just violence. It is self confidence, standing up for oneself or for what is right.
- aaronem 13y ago
  Perhaps you've had the good fortune, possibly by dint of having been raised in some sort of isolation chamber, of never encountering bullies in childhood. Had you done, you'd probably have noticed that most bullies are basically cowards, which means that fighting back is much less likely to escalate the matter than to end it. Conversely, to supinely suffer whatever a bully dishes out will certainly embolden him, with the probable result that he will "grow up thinking that fighting is OK", just like you don't want. It's common for members of certain groups, particularly those of a quixotic utopian bent, to see a bunched fist as something that's awful and terrifying in its own right. This is not true; like any weapon, its moral valence is ineluctably situational and determined by the use to which it's put. A bully uses it to inflict terror on those who can't or won't fight back. We agree that this use carries a negative moral valence, but you fail to think it through properly; the assumption that more violence is always worse than less violence blinds you to the fact that not all violence is morally equivalent -- that the violence which stops a bully is not the same as the violence which satisfies a bully -- because you find it so unpleasant to contemplate any violence. This is a regrettably common form of moral cowardice, but it is no less base or shameful for all that. Perhaps you think I judge too harshly; in entire fairness, I'd think the same, had not the schools of my youth been administered by people who had precisely the same attitude toward violence in general; their idea was that the problem of bullying could be entirely solved by sufficient attention from authorized adults, which might possibly be workable if, say, there were a roughly 1:1 staff-to-student ratio, and constant supervision in places like bathrooms. Since there isn't and never will be, the whole idea is plainly and fundamentally flawed, but that doesn't seem enough to stop some people from trying to put it into practice nonetheless. I've seen the policies which result from such foolishness, and experienced their consequences firsthand; indeed, they made my youth a great deal more unpleasant than it really had to be, and it's because of that experience that I have such short shrift to give these opinions when I encounter them in adulthood.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Your reply (dripping with condescension which makes it an unpleasant read) ignores the many people who have met bullies who are not cowards and who are either physically strong or in some position of power or who are emotional bullies. You also make the mistake of saying that bullying is a problem of childhood. Plenty of adults bully and are bullied.
dpcan 13y ago
I certainly do. At my kids' school, they are blowing whistles at kids for running. RUNNING! It's stupid. So someone gets bumped. Someone skins their knee. For God's sake, let the kids RUN. Then on the playground. If there were sticks, or tackling, or climbing on anything except the rubber-made play sets, they'd be sent to the office and be held in on the next recess. Ridiculous. Watching the video with this article made me feel SO HAPPY for these kids. Playing games we used to play as kids. Less fear of being "safe" and a little more aggressive and exhilarating play. I sort-of "get" the bullying part too. Sort-of. I think it comes down to "getting out the aggression". And when aggressive kids are cornered, they may lash out. Though I'm no expert at all. But I think there's a bit of sense to this.

girvo 13y ago

That's the point, IMO. It's a return to norms. I don't know about you guys, but I was in school only a few years ago, and my brothers just graduated. We weren't even allowed to play ball sports during lunch/morning tea. It was crap, and so I decided to cause havoc on the school's network (although, 1) thats not a cause and effect, and 2) that ended up with me earning lots of money now...) -- anyway, I agree with you. Also, I fought my last bully back when I was 14, and the teachers let me off entirely. He, on the otherhand, got expelled, as he was constantly doing shit like that. (As a random aside, he's in jail for blowing up and robbing ATMs. Go figure)

masklinn 13y ago

> There are some places with rules like "no fighting" that ironically makes bullies rule. Especially with the usual idiotic companions of zero-tolerance and "it takes 2 for a fight".

mwcampbell 13y ago

> but the best thing you can do against bullies is fight them back. That sounds crazy to me. Doesn't fighting back just escalate things? And do we really want the next generation to grow up thinking that fighting is OK? Will they apply that same pattern when they're adults?

DonGateley 13y ago
I wouldn't mind at all if the next generation was more comfortable with fighting. It's a basic human instinct and when basic instincts are completely suppressed pathological behaviors will bulge out instead. The current state of "assault" law is appalling, especially in the U.S. We need to get more than a bit back to what we actually are.
- mwcampbell 13y ago
  What exactly do you mean by "what we actually are"? I don't want to jump to conclusions and go off in the wrong direction.
sitharus 13y ago
Most bullies are power-tripping on the effect they have. Standing up to them is unexpected, they don't know how to react, and quickly back down. It's not worth the risk to put up a fight when you can just pick on someone else. It works when you're an adult as well, though if they're your boss they might fire you.
- arrrg 13y ago
  In my experience standing up to bullies was always completely useless. I mean, it might work, but wit and physical ability are necessary to make that happen in practice and many who are bullied have neither (I certainly didn’t). Bullies do know very well how to react to someone standing up to them. All my bullies did. It was worthless. I was always unable to do or say the right things to stop them. This always seemed like a useless platitude to me that doesn’t work one bit outside of very specific circumstances.
  - aaronem 13y ago
    Well, sure, fighting back doesn't always work. But even if you failed, at least you tried. Perhaps that's not the best thing in the world for your self-respect, but take it from me, it's a hell of a lot better than not even trying.
    - arrrg 13y ago
      No, trying tends to make things worse, at least in my experience. Someone who is bullied is not good at retaliation. Bullies tend to be super-great at complaining to teachers and getting you punished.
GrinningFool 13y ago
Sometimes, fighting is OK. Particularly when the alternative is to get pushed around until an authority figure happens to see and intercede on your behalf. I think it's important to carry that lesson into adulthood, especially as we learn that not all fights are physical.
ANTSANTS 13y ago
I grew up in the "zero tolerance for fighting" era. Even if your parents said it was ok to smack someone if they hit you first, it was drilled into kids by teachers and the administration that there would be serious consequences for both parties. All it does is give more power to bullies. They can be jerks out of sight as much as they want, knowing their targets will never do anything to protect themselves. When it happened to me, I was always more overcome with fear that they would kick me out of school and my life would be over than I was scared of the bully, so I never retaliated. Of course, you can't tell the teacher or your parents either. Not only does that make you look like a "wimp," but it's somehow against the code of kids to get an adult involved; you would feel ashamed if you tattled. So instead, you just put up with it, and the school basically enables the bully to torment as much as they want, as long as they aren't dumb enough to get caught. I didn't have too many problems with bullying growing up, but there were other kids that were basically doomed to years of torment because of this, and were seriously screwed up and jaded because of it. Even worse, even most of the regular kids would avoid the bullied kid and talk about them behind their back, partially for fear of retribution from the bully, and partially because kids in general are cruel and enjoy having power over others almost as much as the bullies themselves, so being the target of a bully meant "you endure cruelty and physical violence on a daily basis, you have no friends, you cannot escape, you aren't allowed to defend yourself, and the adults aren't on your side." Jumping forward a few years to being a teenager, a guy I didn't like was being a jerk outside of school, and something inside of me was just so tired of always backing down that I ended up hitting him. We traded blows for a minute or so (we were more thrashing like idiots than doing anything "cool" and actually dangerous you'd see in a movie) before it got broken up. We were barely hurt, no busted lips or black eyes, and neither of our parents ever found out. Afterwards, I immediately had a lot more respect amongst my friends, and I somehow ended up becoming friends with the guy I fought. Guys are funny like that. Random violence and actually hurting people is obviously not ok, but fighting back against bullies prevents them from getting overconfident and lets the bullied keep their dignity. I'm convinced that a more understanding administrative policy and less adult supervision would have allowed most of these problems to sort themselves out pretty quickly, evening out the power distribution in the classroom and making life significantly better for the worst victims of bullying. It probably wouldn't completely solve the problem, for example in the obvious scenario where a group of older kids screw with younger kids outside of school, but at least it solves the horrendous problem we have today where, as I described above, almost an entire class is pitted against a kid. > do we really want the next generation to grow up thinking that fighting is OK? Will they apply that same pattern when they're adults? As I understand it, the past few generations are the weird ones, and kids have pretty much always been allowed to get away with harmless fights. Ask your parents how often many fistfights they've had since graduating high school.
njharman 13y ago
Fighting is ok. Esp fighting back. It is, occasionally, necessary. Fighting is not just violence. It is self confidence, standing up for oneself or for what is right.
aaronem 13y ago
Perhaps you've had the good fortune, possibly by dint of having been raised in some sort of isolation chamber, of never encountering bullies in childhood. Had you done, you'd probably have noticed that most bullies are basically cowards, which means that fighting back is much less likely to escalate the matter than to end it. Conversely, to supinely suffer whatever a bully dishes out will certainly embolden him, with the probable result that he will "grow up thinking that fighting is OK", just like you don't want. It's common for members of certain groups, particularly those of a quixotic utopian bent, to see a bunched fist as something that's awful and terrifying in its own right. This is not true; like any weapon, its moral valence is ineluctably situational and determined by the use to which it's put. A bully uses it to inflict terror on those who can't or won't fight back. We agree that this use carries a negative moral valence, but you fail to think it through properly; the assumption that more violence is always worse than less violence blinds you to the fact that not all violence is morally equivalent -- that the violence which stops a bully is not the same as the violence which satisfies a bully -- because you find it so unpleasant to contemplate any violence. This is a regrettably common form of moral cowardice, but it is no less base or shameful for all that. Perhaps you think I judge too harshly; in entire fairness, I'd think the same, had not the schools of my youth been administered by people who had precisely the same attitude toward violence in general; their idea was that the problem of bullying could be entirely solved by sufficient attention from authorized adults, which might possibly be workable if, say, there were a roughly 1:1 staff-to-student ratio, and constant supervision in places like bathrooms. Since there isn't and never will be, the whole idea is plainly and fundamentally flawed, but that doesn't seem enough to stop some people from trying to put it into practice nonetheless. I've seen the policies which result from such foolishness, and experienced their consequences firsthand; indeed, they made my youth a great deal more unpleasant than it really had to be, and it's because of that experience that I have such short shrift to give these opinions when I encounter them in adulthood.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Your reply (dripping with condescension which makes it an unpleasant read) ignores the many people who have met bullies who are not cowards and who are either physically strong or in some position of power or who are emotional bullies. You also make the mistake of saying that bullying is a problem of childhood. Plenty of adults bully and are bullied.

dpcan 13y ago

I certainly do. At my kids' school, they are blowing whistles at kids for running. RUNNING! It's stupid. So someone gets bumped. Someone skins their knee. For God's sake, let the kids RUN. Then on the playground. If there were sticks, or tackling, or climbing on anything except the rubber-made play sets, they'd be sent to the office and be held in on the next recess. Ridiculous. Watching the video with this article made me feel SO HAPPY for these kids. Playing games we used to play as kids. Less fear of being "safe" and a little more aggressive and exhilarating play. I sort-of "get" the bullying part too. Sort-of. I think it comes down to "getting out the aggression". And when aggressive kids are cornered, they may lash out. Though I'm no expert at all. But I think there's a bit of sense to this.