7 ms·

I came here expecting to see something like this at the top position. Apart from the standard rant about how completely unconstructive criticism -- in fact just

I came here expecting to see something like this at the top position. Apart from the standard rant about how completely unconstructive criticism -- in fact just outright insulting whole people and companies from the safety of anonymity -- seems to rule around here, there are a couple of other things I'd like to say. HN would greatly benefit from a regional filter -- as in, a filter of which comments I read, not who can post them. WTF do I care what some guy in Australia thinks of a very prominent Bay Area employer? He doesn't have friends and neighbors who work there, we do. Geographic community still means something, and much of the news on HN happens in our locale. (Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously, but that's a different discussion.) Second, up/down voting is conflated with "makes me feel good/not good" -- a better system would allow feedback to be more nuanced: agree/disagree, insightful, well-researched, funny etc. So we could have filters on discussions for what's actually insightful, not just what gives people the fuzzy comfort of knowing their preconceptions can remain safe and unchallenged for one more day, because the world has made low someone who has actual accomplishments (and mistakes)

logicallee 13y ago
I agree wholehertedly. But let me in the bubble! The whole POINT of YCombinator is that the Bay Area ecosystem is going to be open to people flying in for it. So, turn off speech but let people enjoy the geographic bubble. Anyone who would go to the trouble of a Bay Area VPN is practically renting there already so they could be allowed in, small loss. I would support. As long as anyone can view the discussion without participation.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  I meant a filter which I can apply when browsing comments. Not one preventing to restricting the ability to comment.
mildtrepidation 13y ago
(Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously, but that's a different discussion.) That's lovely. People outside your precious bay area don't have any sort of interesting insight (It's a Jeep thing; you wouldn't understand)? Your whole rant is pretty hilarious in this context. ...in fact just outright insulting whole people and companies... Yes, by all means. Attack the person you're replying to right before you dismiss all developers outside of your little geographical echo chamber as inferior. Finally, I'd like to apologize on behalf of all the stupid foreigners (read: non-Bay-Area-ites) who are offending you so badly with our deplorable misuse of the voting system. You're right; we're simply afraid that you're cutting down our sad little misconceptions about the big, scary world (which, of course, comprises solely the place where you live, as nothing else really matters). I'm not sure if you understand it, but your attitude is a big part of the reason some of us would never, ever move there. I'm sure you find this just peachy, which would also be your own failure.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  A) parentheticals are aside comments B) I'm not saying that all outside programmers are inferior. I'm saying that, given a uniformly random sample of Bay Area vs. outside programmer, I would expect the Bay Area programmer to be "better" for some set of objective measures. If you don't think that, then you also have to disagree with basic market dynamics. Good programmers can earn more money here, and expose themselves to significant upside opportunities -- both social and financial -- which simply cannot be offered in the same quantity elsewhere. So if you show me a programmer who doesn't live in a place where they are exposed to those opportunities, I have to conclude one of only a few options: 1) not a good enough programmer to work at a company where they would be exposed to those opportunities 2) too risk-adverse or pessimistic to believe that they could leverage those opportunities, such that the cost of living here would be outweighed by the potential benefits -- which, if that is what this person believes about themselves, then perhaps #1 also applies 3) extreme aversion to city or suburban living? Or severe miscalculation of the cost-benefit of living here. Certainly there are some cases where people who don't live here -- the center of the universe as far as technology careers are concerned -- are actually very highly skilled and leveraging those skills in their own communities. John Carmack doesn't live here, nor does Matz. But I think you have to admit that those are exceptional cases. The average case is that you have an average programmer -- how else do you interpret the decision not to live in a place which affords objectively superior upside scenarios? I'm not sure if you understand it, but your attitude is a big part of the reason some of us would never, ever move there. I'm sure you find this just peachy, which would also be your own failure. Yeah I get it and I'm sorry for offending you. But I think there are certainly some realities at play, and one of them is that not all places attract talent equally. Nobody bats an eye if I said "community theater in Peoria does not attract the best acting talent," somehow that's an obvious statement -- of course if one was truly talented they'd have found a more rewarding stage. Why is the same principle upsetting when applied to your own profession? Talented developers will find their way to the place which best rewards them. The biggest rewards tend to be available in the SF Bay Area. Ergo, to the extent that talent and compensation, opportunity etc are correlated -- the better talent is found here. Finally, I'd like to apologize on behalf of all the stupid foreigners... This is an unnecessary reaction. I think you must know what I'm saying here is that the voting seems to have a tendency to indicate popular sentiment, and not thoughtfulness, or insight. Consequently, it tends to punish provocative or controversial statements.
drpancake 13y ago
"Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously, but that's a different discussion." That sentence neatly encapsulates my main reasons for choosing to leave the Bay Area.
hardwaresofton 13y ago
So I also came in here expecting to see something like that at the top position, but I don't think this is completely unconstructive criticism (for example, I also was personally surprised that they would make a move like this, especially in light of ridiculous layoffs they have done in the past, nevermind being surprised they had the kind of money to make this deal), especially to people who have read articles about questionable practices they allegedly employ. Regional filter == segregation. Segregation does not help communities. Especially communities that are so similar. What if Python programmers never talked to Ruby programmers and Ruby programmers never talked to Lisp programmers? If they stayed in their own regions just because of a PERCEIVED lack of depth of knowledge of the goings-on, a lot of things wouldn't get built. Geographic community may mean something, but in a world with data that is freely available (nevermind the fact that just because he is in Australia does NOT preclude him from knowing more about the SV scene than you do -- you may be able to name buildings on streets, but may not know the players that he does), geographic community means less and less, and it should be that way. Knowledge (of non-geographic things) is not bound by geography. It looks like you're asking for slashdot -- maybe you should check it out if you haven't already. Up/down voting IS vague, and at best, any attempts to characterize upvotes/downvotes (as you've suggested) is largely ineffective in absolute terms. Only people who have researched a subject well have the right to put something like "well-researched", if you think everyone does that, you're going to have a hard time on the internet. People like to think they are rational, but we are highly irrational. Not trying to flame you, but maybe you shouldn't be so quick to go to righteous indignation.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  Segregation does not help communities Such a blanket statement certainly bears more nuance. I think some segregation can be effective -- I'd like to hear thoughtful comments about people who have a stake in the matter. Not glib, off-hand retorts from the peanut gallery. Why is that harmful, to prioritize the comments of people who have an incentive to be thoughtful?
  - hardwaresofton 13y ago
    What you seem to be referring to is valuing the word of an expert, or someone known to have more knowledge in an area. That is totally valid of course, and should be strived for (we should not listen to pundits, we should listen to experts). However, geographical segregation (I take this to mean separating AND isolating, which might be my mistake -- segregating does not necessarily entail mutual isolation though I took it to mean that based on what was said) does not achieve this result (assuming the only people who know about SV live in SV), but it DOES exclude people who know a lot about relevant parts of SV life/culture/business that do not live in SV. In the general case, it is not strictly impossible (nor even improbably, I would argue) that someone OUTSIDE of your geographical area (especially if you consider that people move around) does not hold important knowledge on anything related to your geographical area (and even more-so with super generic areas like "business" and "startups" and "venture capital"). If the possibility exists that someone with such knowlege exists outside of your geographical community, the geographical community will experience (I use that word liberally, you don't know what you don't know) a loss in potential knowledge -- in short, the person who COULD have contributed knowledge cannot, since they are excluded. So what if annoying people drown out the voices of the insightful ones, or even cause people to leave? I think this is relatively difficult, without a pretty large out-pouring of annoying. They would have to be annoying enough to drive away people abroad (all potentially gained due to inclusion) AND at least one local person. I don't think HN is at that point yet, and I think it's really hard for any medium to get THAT noisy, and be obviously too noisy to be any good. (oh also -- I didn't downvote you, actually upvoted, I just want to debate the point, since I have thought that before) (also -- definitely, I should have qualified "community" with "community that seeks to grow knowledge, membership, involvement, etc"
the_hangman 13y ago
(Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any person seriously who enjoys the sound of his/her own voice so much.)
hox 13y ago
you just described slashdot! also, you are crazy if you only take developers in the Bay Area seriously. I live here now, but that attitude completely blinds you to the vast majority of programming knowledge that exists on the planet.
MichaelGG 13y ago
>Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously Really? So no serious devs at Amazon? None working for MS or MSR? Or any company anywhere else in the world? It seems a laughable proposition that everyone "serious" in programming must must live in a small, overpriced area? It's okay but not fantastic.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  I said I have a difficult time -- not no such developers exist. Yes, I don't expect even a random engineer at mega insurance corp in Iowa to be as good as a random engineer at the same company's office here in SF. But FFS, of course Amazon and MS have top talent. If you include in your scope some much less exceptional companies, however, I think you'll see that a more useful interpretation of my statement is that the average level of talent in those areas is lower than our average
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    If John Carmack moves to a small, otherwise ordinary town, the average level of programming talent becomes higher than the national average. But that's a rather useless statement, isn't it? Saying a random developer in that town is probably better hinges on selecting Carmack from that random sample. It's almost never the case that the information you have is just "lives in Bay Area or does not", and almost always the case you'll know something vastly more informative than geographic location. As you put it, "FFS of course MS...". You'd probably repeat that for several areas, like around Boston perhaps? Being able to randomly pick a better developer from the general population doesn't really help in any practical case I can think of.
    - jessedhillon 13y ago
      You'd probably repeat that for several areas, like around Boston perhaps? No. I'm saying that, of course, some companies in other areas have been able to attract highly talented folks -- it does not follow, therefore, that the region as a whole has been able to do so. Being able to randomly pick a better developer from the general population doesn't really help in any practical case I can think of. The quality of the distribution determine your pool when recruiting. If the middle of the distribution skews toward lower talent, with a low sigma, then it says something about your likelihood to even find someone toward the upper end of the scale. Let alone begin vetting them on other factors, such as accomplishments, interpersonal dynamics, expected compensation etc.
jsiarto 13y ago
I'm sitting here reading this after spending the last two days at Goddard Space Flight Center in MD and I can pretty much assure you that the engineering talent there would run circles around the folks building social apps in the Bay Area. Have to agree with @drpancake here, this attitude is the primary reason I stay away from SF.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  Can you explain please how you're interpreting my comment to mean "no such developers exist elsewhere," when I think it's pretty clear that I said "the critical mass (most important to me) exist here"
fotbr 13y ago
I'll take the average programmer from the middle of bumfutz nowhere over someone so self centered that they think anyone that doesn't buy into "SV is the best place in the world" is crap, even if that person is a "rockstar" programmer. Want to know why? I can work with average, be quite successful, and enjoy my work.
amercade 13y ago
Sir, you have trolled these poor people very hard. And they fed you surprisingly well. All this thread is quite amusing and almost a tutorial on trolling. Very bold generalizations somehow insulting almost all the developers on the world. With ideas that are obviously false and are not nearly related to the OP. And yet you've got an amazing degree of attention and had the dedication and energy to keep the pointless discussion going on for hours. You are the best troll I have ever seen on HN.
gone35 13y ago
I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously. Ouch, seldom I find myself truly insulted by a needlessly bigoted[1] comment. I wish I could downvote you. [1] In the dictionary sense of the word, as in "having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others". http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bigoted http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bigoted
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  I've elaborated in many places on this thread why I believe this. What have you provided to corroborate your sentiment, apart from the fact that you live outside of SV and accordingly have a different conclusion. Do you have anything more than personal distaste to rebutt the reasoning I've offered? If not, you're part of the problem -- you vote based on what makes you feel good, not what makes you think. Actually I guess you haven't even indicated where you live, or why you're insulted.
  - gone35 13y ago
    What have you provided to corroborate your sentiment. (...) Do you have anything more than personal distaste to rebut the reasoning I've offered? Nope, nothing else; just my irrational, silly reaction to being dismissed for living in Cambridge MA, of all places. Call me immature, but I think it's only human to want to express my distaste and not want to engage with the merits of your argument, sorry[1]. [1] If you want a thoughtful argument for why there might be regions other than SV brimming with talent, please see: http://paulgraham.com/cities.html http://paulgraham.com/cities.html
    - jessedhillon 13y ago
      Hah at least you're honest that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Bonus for you because at least you know of some places on the internet where someone said a thing that might support you. But, who knows, since you haven't actually engaged the argument. (I notice that you have not mentioned that YC requires successful applicants to come here however. So when it comes to Paul Graham's money, not all cities are equal.) I mean, by this method nobody can rationally discuss if some places are better than others for finding developers, since that might entail a conclusion about exactly how scarce programming quality is in other parts of the country. It might happen that people from those places could stumble upon such a discussion! And then they would feel bad! Well kudos to you, human. Now hug yourself and eat some chocolate -- may your blood always run high with oxytocin.
davegardner 13y ago
Your choice of people to respond to doesn't do a lot to support your criticism. According to his profile cletus is originally from Australia, but now lives in NY and works for Google. I don't know him personally, but given his employer I'd hardly jump to the conclusion that he doesn't have any friends who work there. >Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously He's also got over 250k rep on SO, and 15k on HN, so there's more than a few other people who take what he says seriously enough.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  I'm not sure how to communicate this better than I've tried -- I'm talking about populations not individuals. Most likely cletus is a better programmer than me but that does nothing to my argument. Which primarily was that I'd like to be able to filter based on comments from people who have skin in the game rather than random hate from passers-by. And secondarily that the wealth of talent and resources are located here, and therefore you can identify a significant (but inexact) correlation between talent and location.
  - mark_integerdsv 13y ago
    I'm a little surprised that you'd spend so much time arguing with these peons (some of them almost certainly do not live in the same city as what you do.) Surely with the amount of lines you have typed in this thread, your Bay Area level skills could have been used to whip up something that does exactly what you are asking HN to do on your behalf?
yeukhon 13y ago
One word: shut the hell up. Sorry. That's the end of my appreciation to your bullshit. (and who the hell are you anyway...)

logicallee 13y ago

I agree wholehertedly. But let me in the bubble! The whole POINT of YCombinator is that the Bay Area ecosystem is going to be open to people flying in for it. So, turn off speech but let people enjoy the geographic bubble. Anyone who would go to the trouble of a Bay Area VPN is practically renting there already so they could be allowed in, small loss. I would support. As long as anyone can view the discussion without participation.

jessedhillon 13y ago
I meant a filter which I can apply when browsing comments. Not one preventing to restricting the ability to comment.

mildtrepidation 13y ago

(Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously, but that's a different discussion.) That's lovely. People outside your precious bay area don't have any sort of interesting insight (It's a Jeep thing; you wouldn't understand)? Your whole rant is pretty hilarious in this context. ...in fact just outright insulting whole people and companies... Yes, by all means. Attack the person you're replying to right before you dismiss all developers outside of your little geographical echo chamber as inferior. Finally, I'd like to apologize on behalf of all the stupid foreigners (read: non-Bay-Area-ites) who are offending you so badly with our deplorable misuse of the voting system. You're right; we're simply afraid that you're cutting down our sad little misconceptions about the big, scary world (which, of course, comprises solely the place where you live, as nothing else really matters). I'm not sure if you understand it, but your attitude is a big part of the reason some of us would never, ever move there. I'm sure you find this just peachy, which would also be your own failure.

jessedhillon 13y ago
A) parentheticals are aside comments B) I'm not saying that all outside programmers are inferior. I'm saying that, given a uniformly random sample of Bay Area vs. outside programmer, I would expect the Bay Area programmer to be "better" for some set of objective measures. If you don't think that, then you also have to disagree with basic market dynamics. Good programmers can earn more money here, and expose themselves to significant upside opportunities -- both social and financial -- which simply cannot be offered in the same quantity elsewhere. So if you show me a programmer who doesn't live in a place where they are exposed to those opportunities, I have to conclude one of only a few options: 1) not a good enough programmer to work at a company where they would be exposed to those opportunities 2) too risk-adverse or pessimistic to believe that they could leverage those opportunities, such that the cost of living here would be outweighed by the potential benefits -- which, if that is what this person believes about themselves, then perhaps #1 also applies 3) extreme aversion to city or suburban living? Or severe miscalculation of the cost-benefit of living here. Certainly there are some cases where people who don't live here -- the center of the universe as far as technology careers are concerned -- are actually very highly skilled and leveraging those skills in their own communities. John Carmack doesn't live here, nor does Matz. But I think you have to admit that those are exceptional cases. The average case is that you have an average programmer -- how else do you interpret the decision not to live in a place which affords objectively superior upside scenarios? I'm not sure if you understand it, but your attitude is a big part of the reason some of us would never, ever move there. I'm sure you find this just peachy, which would also be your own failure. Yeah I get it and I'm sorry for offending you. But I think there are certainly some realities at play, and one of them is that not all places attract talent equally. Nobody bats an eye if I said "community theater in Peoria does not attract the best acting talent," somehow that's an obvious statement -- of course if one was truly talented they'd have found a more rewarding stage. Why is the same principle upsetting when applied to your own profession? Talented developers will find their way to the place which best rewards them. The biggest rewards tend to be available in the SF Bay Area. Ergo, to the extent that talent and compensation, opportunity etc are correlated -- the better talent is found here. Finally, I'd like to apologize on behalf of all the stupid foreigners... This is an unnecessary reaction. I think you must know what I'm saying here is that the voting seems to have a tendency to indicate popular sentiment, and not thoughtfulness, or insight. Consequently, it tends to punish provocative or controversial statements.

drpancake 13y ago

"Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously, but that's a different discussion." That sentence neatly encapsulates my main reasons for choosing to leave the Bay Area.

hardwaresofton 13y ago

So I also came in here expecting to see something like that at the top position, but I don't think this is completely unconstructive criticism (for example, I also was personally surprised that they would make a move like this, especially in light of ridiculous layoffs they have done in the past, nevermind being surprised they had the kind of money to make this deal), especially to people who have read articles about questionable practices they allegedly employ. Regional filter == segregation. Segregation does not help communities. Especially communities that are so similar. What if Python programmers never talked to Ruby programmers and Ruby programmers never talked to Lisp programmers? If they stayed in their own regions just because of a PERCEIVED lack of depth of knowledge of the goings-on, a lot of things wouldn't get built. Geographic community may mean something, but in a world with data that is freely available (nevermind the fact that just because he is in Australia does NOT preclude him from knowing more about the SV scene than you do -- you may be able to name buildings on streets, but may not know the players that he does), geographic community means less and less, and it should be that way. Knowledge (of non-geographic things) is not bound by geography. It looks like you're asking for slashdot -- maybe you should check it out if you haven't already. Up/down voting IS vague, and at best, any attempts to characterize upvotes/downvotes (as you've suggested) is largely ineffective in absolute terms. Only people who have researched a subject well have the right to put something like "well-researched", if you think everyone does that, you're going to have a hard time on the internet. People like to think they are rational, but we are highly irrational. Not trying to flame you, but maybe you shouldn't be so quick to go to righteous indignation.

jessedhillon 13y ago
Segregation does not help communities Such a blanket statement certainly bears more nuance. I think some segregation can be effective -- I'd like to hear thoughtful comments about people who have a stake in the matter. Not glib, off-hand retorts from the peanut gallery. Why is that harmful, to prioritize the comments of people who have an incentive to be thoughtful?
- hardwaresofton 13y ago
  What you seem to be referring to is valuing the word of an expert, or someone known to have more knowledge in an area. That is totally valid of course, and should be strived for (we should not listen to pundits, we should listen to experts). However, geographical segregation (I take this to mean separating AND isolating, which might be my mistake -- segregating does not necessarily entail mutual isolation though I took it to mean that based on what was said) does not achieve this result (assuming the only people who know about SV live in SV), but it DOES exclude people who know a lot about relevant parts of SV life/culture/business that do not live in SV. In the general case, it is not strictly impossible (nor even improbably, I would argue) that someone OUTSIDE of your geographical area (especially if you consider that people move around) does not hold important knowledge on anything related to your geographical area (and even more-so with super generic areas like "business" and "startups" and "venture capital"). If the possibility exists that someone with such knowlege exists outside of your geographical community, the geographical community will experience (I use that word liberally, you don't know what you don't know) a loss in potential knowledge -- in short, the person who COULD have contributed knowledge cannot, since they are excluded. So what if annoying people drown out the voices of the insightful ones, or even cause people to leave? I think this is relatively difficult, without a pretty large out-pouring of annoying. They would have to be annoying enough to drive away people abroad (all potentially gained due to inclusion) AND at least one local person. I don't think HN is at that point yet, and I think it's really hard for any medium to get THAT noisy, and be obviously too noisy to be any good. (oh also -- I didn't downvote you, actually upvoted, I just want to debate the point, since I have thought that before) (also -- definitely, I should have qualified "community" with "community that seeks to grow knowledge, membership, involvement, etc"

the_hangman 13y ago

(Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any person seriously who enjoys the sound of his/her own voice so much.)

hox 13y ago

you just described slashdot! also, you are crazy if you only take developers in the Bay Area seriously. I live here now, but that attitude completely blinds you to the vast majority of programming knowledge that exists on the planet.

MichaelGG 13y ago

>Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously Really? So no serious devs at Amazon? None working for MS or MSR? Or any company anywhere else in the world? It seems a laughable proposition that everyone "serious" in programming must must live in a small, overpriced area? It's okay but not fantastic.

jessedhillon 13y ago
I said I have a difficult time -- not no such developers exist. Yes, I don't expect even a random engineer at mega insurance corp in Iowa to be as good as a random engineer at the same company's office here in SF. But FFS, of course Amazon and MS have top talent. If you include in your scope some much less exceptional companies, however, I think you'll see that a more useful interpretation of my statement is that the average level of talent in those areas is lower than our average
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  If John Carmack moves to a small, otherwise ordinary town, the average level of programming talent becomes higher than the national average. But that's a rather useless statement, isn't it? Saying a random developer in that town is probably better hinges on selecting Carmack from that random sample. It's almost never the case that the information you have is just "lives in Bay Area or does not", and almost always the case you'll know something vastly more informative than geographic location. As you put it, "FFS of course MS...". You'd probably repeat that for several areas, like around Boston perhaps? Being able to randomly pick a better developer from the general population doesn't really help in any practical case I can think of.
  - jessedhillon 13y ago
    You'd probably repeat that for several areas, like around Boston perhaps? No. I'm saying that, of course, some companies in other areas have been able to attract highly talented folks -- it does not follow, therefore, that the region as a whole has been able to do so. Being able to randomly pick a better developer from the general population doesn't really help in any practical case I can think of. The quality of the distribution determine your pool when recruiting. If the middle of the distribution skews toward lower talent, with a low sigma, then it says something about your likelihood to even find someone toward the upper end of the scale. Let alone begin vetting them on other factors, such as accomplishments, interpersonal dynamics, expected compensation etc.

jsiarto 13y ago

I'm sitting here reading this after spending the last two days at Goddard Space Flight Center in MD and I can pretty much assure you that the engineering talent there would run circles around the folks building social apps in the Bay Area. Have to agree with @drpancake here, this attitude is the primary reason I stay away from SF.

jessedhillon 13y ago
Can you explain please how you're interpreting my comment to mean "no such developers exist elsewhere," when I think it's pretty clear that I said "the critical mass (most important to me) exist here"

fotbr 13y ago

I'll take the average programmer from the middle of bumfutz nowhere over someone so self centered that they think anyone that doesn't buy into "SV is the best place in the world" is crap, even if that person is a "rockstar" programmer. Want to know why? I can work with average, be quite successful, and enjoy my work.

amercade 13y ago

Sir, you have trolled these poor people very hard. And they fed you surprisingly well. All this thread is quite amusing and almost a tutorial on trolling. Very bold generalizations somehow insulting almost all the developers on the world. With ideas that are obviously false and are not nearly related to the OP. And yet you've got an amazing degree of attention and had the dedication and energy to keep the pointless discussion going on for hours. You are the best troll I have ever seen on HN.

gone35 13y ago

I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously. Ouch, seldom I find myself truly insulted by a needlessly bigoted[1] comment. I wish I could downvote you. [1] In the dictionary sense of the word, as in "having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others". http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bigoted http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bigoted

jessedhillon 13y ago
I've elaborated in many places on this thread why I believe this. What have you provided to corroborate your sentiment, apart from the fact that you live outside of SV and accordingly have a different conclusion. Do you have anything more than personal distaste to rebutt the reasoning I've offered? If not, you're part of the problem -- you vote based on what makes you feel good, not what makes you think. Actually I guess you haven't even indicated where you live, or why you're insulted.
- gone35 13y ago
  What have you provided to corroborate your sentiment. (...) Do you have anything more than personal distaste to rebut the reasoning I've offered? Nope, nothing else; just my irrational, silly reaction to being dismissed for living in Cambridge MA, of all places. Call me immature, but I think it's only human to want to express my distaste and not want to engage with the merits of your argument, sorry[1]. [1] If you want a thoughtful argument for why there might be regions other than SV brimming with talent, please see: http://paulgraham.com/cities.html http://paulgraham.com/cities.html
  - jessedhillon 13y ago
    Hah at least you're honest that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Bonus for you because at least you know of some places on the internet where someone said a thing that might support you. But, who knows, since you haven't actually engaged the argument. (I notice that you have not mentioned that YC requires successful applicants to come here however. So when it comes to Paul Graham's money, not all cities are equal.) I mean, by this method nobody can rationally discuss if some places are better than others for finding developers, since that might entail a conclusion about exactly how scarce programming quality is in other parts of the country. It might happen that people from those places could stumble upon such a discussion! And then they would feel bad! Well kudos to you, human. Now hug yourself and eat some chocolate -- may your blood always run high with oxytocin.

davegardner 13y ago

Your choice of people to respond to doesn't do a lot to support your criticism. According to his profile cletus is originally from Australia, but now lives in NY and works for Google. I don't know him personally, but given his employer I'd hardly jump to the conclusion that he doesn't have any friends who work there. >Honestly, I have a difficult time taking any developer who doesn't live here seriously He's also got over 250k rep on SO, and 15k on HN, so there's more than a few other people who take what he says seriously enough.

jessedhillon 13y ago
I'm not sure how to communicate this better than I've tried -- I'm talking about populations not individuals. Most likely cletus is a better programmer than me but that does nothing to my argument. Which primarily was that I'd like to be able to filter based on comments from people who have skin in the game rather than random hate from passers-by. And secondarily that the wealth of talent and resources are located here, and therefore you can identify a significant (but inexact) correlation between talent and location.
- mark_integerdsv 13y ago
  I'm a little surprised that you'd spend so much time arguing with these peons (some of them almost certainly do not live in the same city as what you do.) Surely with the amount of lines you have typed in this thread, your Bay Area level skills could have been used to whip up something that does exactly what you are asking HN to do on your behalf?

yeukhon 13y ago

One word: shut the hell up. Sorry. That's the end of my appreciation to your bullshit. (and who the hell are you anyway...)