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California regulator seeks to shut down 'learn to code' bootcamps

104 points by coloneltcb 13y ago

callmeed 13y ago
I'm not really pro-regulation but this might be a good thing. I feel like we're in a "bootcamp bubble" at the moment. As much as I'd like for every bootcamp to have altruistic motives, some seem like a money-grab to me. This is especially evidenced by the smaller and smaller program lengths ("Learn to code in 12 weeks" is now "Learn to code in 8 weeks" or "Learn to do a startup in 4 weeks")[1][2]. Personally, I wish California's community college system would learn to move a little faster, spend $ to hire some talented instructors, and add modern certificate programs in programming/iOS/Rails/Android/UX/DevOps/etc. It's a big system (100+) schools, extremely affordable ($46/unit + lots of financial aid), and a decent length (most certificate programs are 12-20 units or 1-2 semesters). [1] http://www.codefellows.org/ http://www.codefellows.org/ [2] http://fitzroygsd.com/ http://fitzroygsd.com/
- CompleteMoron 13y ago
  I dont think anything has happened yet to trigger a bootcamp incident of people getting beat out of their life savings to learn how to code FORTRAN for CGI apps on gopher where anything needs to be regulated. Point me to some of these scams, I'd say yes - it's gone the way of Devry Institute - although like anything a fool and his money is soon parted and if you really want to learn, you'll do it at a bootcamp, and a bad college or on your own impetus regardless of cash outlay.
- romanovcode 13y ago
  Exactly, now some poor chump who finishes this bootcamp in 4 weeks thinks he is some kind of code-wizzard just because he can draw a stickman using javascript. Bootcams are modern versions of "Learn {php/c++/etc..} in 24 hours" books. AFAIK those things are a complete waste of money.
  - akama 13y ago
    I have read a couple of those books and liked them for learn the syntax of a language.
    - romanovcode 13y ago
      You miss the point. Sure, when you have years of programming experience you can just pick up syntax and start coding. How about when you have zero experience? Not so much helpful now.
      - Crito 13y ago
        The hypothetical poor chump came out of it knowing how to draw a stickman in javascript, right? Can't be that bad then. If "coding bootcamps" are really the new "Learn [whatever] in [X] Days", then does that imply that those book are currently regulated, or should be regulated? Should the State of California protect poor chumps from books that might artificially raise their egos?
        ericd 13y ago
        If they buy one of those books and work through it but don't get a job, they're out of some time and maybe $30, but they have some skills now. If they go to one of those boot camps thinking they're going to get the same job as someone who did a 4 year degree at an elite school and did a ton of side projects, they're probably now out of >$10k with arguably less skill than the person who went through the books. I'm all for the government preventing fraudulent advertising. That's one of the things they're there for.
        Crito 13y ago
        What is the bar here? If I sell a self-help book for many thousands of dollars and people mistakenly ascribe undeserved value to my books, is California going to attempt to step in to protect the poor chumps? I suspect not.
- Finster 13y ago
  It's interesting that you wish California would move faster and be more innovative regarding various tech-related occupations, but also support regulation of a sector that IS moving faster and being innovative. Mind-numbing, soul-destroying, California-style bureaucracy is not the answer here. Instead, I support self-regulation. Other industries have done it. I'd rather see prominent tech academies come together and form their own standards body.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    What's the difference between self regulation and collusion?
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      whether the regulator has been paid off or not. seriously though, barriers to entry, the number of competing firms, anti competitive behavior etc. Low barriers to entry mean that if existing firms collude to artificially raise prices a new competitor may easily enter the market to undercut them. A larger number of firms makes collusion less likely (see OPEC for example). Their attempts to collude are often met with one member state undercutting the agreed upon price and getting most of the business. Other factors are also in play such as whether the industry is most efficiently served by a single entity as in a "natural monopoly"
    - drak0n1c 13y ago
      Higher education in the US is largely self-regulated via the accreditation process. The government has minimal oversight of that self-regulation, mostly through the GI bill. Self-regulation doesn't mean they collude in a bad way (though there are suspicions that the rising cost of tuition is a collusion problem). Self-regulation is a form of collusion that, when done right, is good for producers and consumers - LEED or certain organic food certifications or academic accreditation are easy ways for consumers to know what they are getting and for producers to limit the negative price and quality pressure of "lemons" (bad products) on the marketplace. And it achieves this effect without heavy handed bans that limit consumer choice.
  - 13y ago
- akkartik 13y ago
  I gather you're asking for a law to protect students from being overcharged relative to the services they're provided. But this regulation isn't intended for that, as far as I can see: http://www.bppe.ca.gov/lawsregs/ppe_act.shtml http://www.bppe.ca.gov/lawsregs/ppe_act.shtml
- tn13 13y ago
  "I am from government and I am here to help" I shudder every time I hear those words. As long as people have a choice between to attend or not to attend a bootcamp I dont see how government can step in.
  - bicknergseng 13y ago
    As long as people have a choice between to invest or not invest in Madoff's pink sheets I don't see how government can step in.
    - Crito 13y ago
      That would not be my first choice for an example of successful government regulation...
      - gnarbarian 13y ago
        it would have been an excellent example for self regulation if we had let the banks fail. then go into bankruptcy, the surviving banks could then purchase the assets at reduced costs, if not enough banks survived to aquire the assets we could have helped the surviving banks purchase the assets via loans to them. instead we just bailed out the shitty banks and the good banks were penalized for their shrewd investing.
      - bicknergseng 13y ago
        Successful, not really (though Madoff is in jail and some billions of investor money recovered), but a pretty good example of a place where regulation is necessary. Maybe a better one for this particular issue would be University of Phoenix and other for-profit colleges. I think there's been some success with these bootcamps, but what if that dries up... what then is the difference? Good intentions? Edit: not trying to be overly harsh on the bootcamps... I think they're pretty neat and a good idea on the whole. I also don't think they should escape the protections government regulation, done properly, can provide.
        13y ago
- arikrak 13y ago
  Are there any statistics on how long it takes people to land jobs after they graduate from the larger programs?
  - EricDeb 13y ago
    I know a couple people who've been through them and it seems to have tapered off a bit - at least with respect to RoR bootcamps. If the students stick with it most of them can get jobs within 6 months of starting one of the programs but it seems to be a limited number who get jobs immediately after finishing.
- jamra 13y ago
  I went to a California community college as well as a California state college. The problem with what you are proposing is that they are already so low on classes, they can't cover the basic comp sci curriculum. This means that you are asking to add courses, which will replace what they currently have available. It is not uncommon to cancel classes with low enrollment. The level of quality in state colleges in California is frighteningly low. I had comp engineering students ask me what constructors were in a data structures course. There is no way to make California schools teach more useful technology stacks if they cannot cover the basics. Another thing that really annoys me in the California state college level is the apathy of the professors. You have professors who do no research that have watered down the material to an extreme degree. That same person who asked me what a class constructor was graduated with me. It may be a great way of getting very low level programmers or even people who are looking to change professions, but you would be ruining what little comp sci core material that they still teach. I attended an iOS bootcamp a while back. I found it to be educational, however, the amount of time you spend on coding is so low, I can't imagine anyone but a seasoned programmer benefiting from the experience.
- unethical_ban 13y ago
  >As much as I'd like for every bootcamp to have altruistic motives, some seem like a money-grab to me. Regulation should not ALWAYS assume a stupid citizen. Just like total surveillance might make us somewhat safer, total regulation might make things somewhat less fraudulent. But do the benefits justify the costs: bureaucracy, cementing a fast-paced industry in the molasses of government? Creating a new set of taxes, fees, and public employees?
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Personally, I wish California's community college system would learn to move a little faster, spend $ to hire some talented instructors, and add modern certificate programs in programming/iOS/Rails/Android/UX/DevOps/etc. It's a big system (100+) schools, extremely affordable ($46/unit + lots of financial aid To expand (rather than contracting) programs, California's Community Colleges would either need to get more support from tax revenue or become less "extremely affordable".
zenbowman 13y ago
Regulators thinking they know what is best for us and cracking down on those who are vulnerable is nothing new. Such is life in California.
benihana 13y ago
What happened to California? It used to be the center of counter culture, now it's biggest symbol of The Man around. It's a big terrified nanny state where everyone in charge seems to be too scared to let anyone do anything cause it might hurt them emotionally or physically. I've never lived in California, so I may be way off, but it seems like the decline of a once defiant state is a great metaphor for the baby boomers who made it the center of the counter culture. They started off young and angry, fighting against injustice, and as they got older, the turned into the system they were fighting. They became The Man, scared of things they didn't understand and absolutely terrified of not being in control. It's like watching Citizen Kane if Charles Foster Kane was a state. The quote "the most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution," seems applicable here. Are we all doomed to repeat this fate, to fight the system, accomplish our goals, then become the system as we try to hold on to what we've made?
- dylandrop 13y ago
  I think you're extrapolating a bit too much. First off, those who are regulating are not those who founded tech startups. Additionally, if the general startup credo is "Move fast and break things", well, people shouldn't be surprised if they get fined. If these schools are charging $17K tuitions and are being fined a possible $50K, that seems like a bit of a slap on the wrist. Furthermore, a lot of these regulations are in place for a reason -- and if startups want to break regulations, then they well know they're getting into shady territory. This is hardly "nanny state" behavior -- a good deal of these infractions are warranted (FDA's shutdown of 23andme, transportation on Uber and Lyft), but it varies on a case-per-case basis. I'd much rather live in a place that aired on the side of too cautious rather than just let random folk start whatever they want, causing harm to those around them. In this case in particular, I'm glad they're regulating this stuff. We see randoms every day applying to work at our startup who have finished these hack-bootcamp things, and they frankly just don't have what it takes to work in a professional environment.
- chc 13y ago
  In this case, I think the point is to protect people from being hurt financially. As best I can tell, he's essentially trying to make sure that schools live up to certain standards.
dylandrop 13y ago
At Hack Reactor, where tuition costs over $17,000, 99 percent of students are offered a job at companies like Adobe and Google. Am I the only one who is skeptical of this? I'd really like to see the breakdown on this one..
- klochner 13y ago
  I also dropped in to call bullshit on that claim. If I had to guess, I'd say the better students (top 30%) end up at mid-tier tech companies, with salaries in the $60-$80k range.
- jamra 13y ago
  They are doing the same thing that Devry was. They are making up statistics about job placement to justify the high tuitions. This should be punishable by the state. 99% placement is impossibly high.
- ychung 13y ago
  I am currently a student at Hack Reactor and I can assure you that the average salary students are offered coming out of the program are a lot higher than 60-80k, and the statistics are real. I've been very impressed with the program and highly recommend it. If you're inclined, please refer to this Quora post for additional details: http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-reasons-why-some-Hack-Reactor-graduates-the-2-are-unable-to-find-software-engineering-jobs-upon-graduation http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-re...
  - dylandrop 13y ago
    Thanks for the information -- but this still doesn't spell out any breakdowns of who gets jobs where. This specifies that ~98% get jobs -- but at companies like Adobe and Google? I know plenty of grads from top tier bachelor CS programs at some of the highest ranked schools, and I'd still say that roughly less than half get a job offer at Google. I don't want to sound snobbish... but no doubt these guys would have a better shot than someone who began coding less than 3 months before? Until I see a breakdown it's really hard to say the quote isn't blown out of proportion.
sologoub 13y ago
"At Hack Reactor, where tuition costs over $17,000, 99 percent of students are offered a job at companies like Adobe and Google." That seems at odds with my general perception of who Google recruits and of the tough nature of their interviews... Anyone have first hand experience of going through one of these without prior tech experience and then landing a job at Google or other name-brand employers?
- ychung 13y ago
  I am currently a senior at Hack Reactor, and I can vouch for the high quality of education and job prep that HR gives its students. The figures that HR mention are real, and we have students who are now working at places like Google. For more information, refer to this quora post: http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-reasons-why-some-Hack-Reactor-graduates-the-2-are-unable-to-find-software-engineering-jobs-upon-graduation http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-re...
  - aaronem 13y ago
    "We have students who are now working at places like Google" is nothing like the same as "99% of our graduates receive job offers from companies like Adobe and Google."
    - sologoub 13y ago
      Right, that's my thought also - what % actually at least gets an interview at Google, and what % gets hired?
    - SnacksOnAPlane 13y ago
      I love the line "companies like Adobe and Google". McDonald's is a company like Adobe and Google, in the sense that it has a name and sells things.
  - Crito 13y ago
    Does "like Google" mean "Google, for example" or does it mean "places that are like Google, but not necessarily Google"? I assume it is the first, not the misleading second. ;)
lowglow 13y ago
The current talent crunch has brought a TON of shady bootcamps to the valley that are preying on innocent hopefuls. I even built http://schools.techendo.co/ http://schools.techendo.co/ to help people under-equipped to evaluate these schools. It's a true problem. [edit] Related post: http://www.techendo.co/posts/are-dev-bootcamps-a-scam-a-hacker-s-perspective http://www.techendo.co/posts/are-dev-bootcamps-a-scam-a-hack...
- my_username_is_ 13y ago
  it may be helpful to people who are trying to evaluate different bootcamps to attend for you to include some sort of ranking of the top-rated 'schools' that being said, it's awesome that you made that. I'm not aware of anywhere that lets people evaluate their bootcamp experience and it'll be great if/when more people review what they went through
acangiano 13y ago
Whether you like her or not, agree or disagree with her, Ayn Rand has two great relevant quotes: "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." and "Government 'help' to business is just as disastrous as government persecution... the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off."
- jamra 13y ago
  Ayn Rand's opinions don't fit into a hybrid social system like ours. It can only be rationalized in a communist or other totalitarian society. Can you imagine a corporation with unlimited power that is free to do anything it pleases? We need government to regulate predatory practices. It would be great if government would step up and regulate healthcare costs and credit card providers a bit more harshly.
  - aaronem 13y ago
    > Can you imagine a corporation with unlimited power that is free to do anything it pleases? Quite easily! It is called a "government".
    - jamra 13y ago
      The government has elected representatives. It's not totalitarian. In a state with zero government regulation, you have just as terrible atrocities.
      - aaronem 13y ago
        Some governments have elected representatives; while lately very much in fashion, this is by no means a requirement.
- maxmax 13y ago
  (December 1963)
Crito 13y ago
Honest question: Do they similarly attempt to regulate "learn to camp" [literal] camps? Do they go after/regulate GSUSA or BSA camps? Since they are asserting that these are "post-secondary education" things, does that mean that organizations targeted at children are safe? Are organizations like Hacker Scouts in the clear?
pmorici 13y ago
Reading the headline I was like WTF that sounds like government run a muck. Then I got to this part... "The programs typically last 10 to 12 weeks. Potential recruits are often told that they have a shot at a job or internship at a competitive tech company like Facebook or Google. Tuition costs vary widely. At Hackbright Academy, it’s $15,000 for a 10 week program. Full scholarships are available, and students who land a job at a company in the Hackbright network can request a partial refund. At Hack Reactor, where tuition costs over $17,000, 99 percent of students are offered a job at companies like Adobe and Google. The average salary is over six figures, Phillips told me." To sum up these companies are charging a lot of money (more than college tuition) while at the same time advertising extraordinary results "99% job placement" with the likes of Google and Adobe. I'm guessing that some of them are making false advertising claims with respect to the chances of landing a job and that is why there is scrutiny here. There was a similar case with cooking schools not long ago also in CA[0] After reading that paragraph I'm a lot more skeptical of these companies. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-ripped-off_n_950107.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-gra...
- ajross 13y ago
  That's exactly what I'm thinking. If you're going to charge tuition in excess of what existing community colleges do, I think you need to expect to be regulated like one. I just don't see how the cost structure of putting a dozen students and an instructor in a room with laptops for a week comes to ~$20000. That seems pretty suspicious.
  - pmorici 13y ago
    It's not even the price that is a problem per se the problem is the extraordinary claims. It's like the Bernie Madoff of education schemes. Who wouldn't invest 15k to have a "99%" chance of getting a 6 figure job with Google? Of course when you think about it that is almost certainly a false claim but someone w/o engineering experience probably doesn't realize that.
    - eqdw 13y ago
mikeryan 13y ago
Jeez the article itself contradicts the linkbait headline. “Our primary goal is not to collect a fine. It is to drive them to comply with the law,” said Russ Heimerich, a spokesperson for BPPE. Heimerich is confident that these companies would lose in court if they attempt to fight BPPE. Heimerich stressed that these bootcamps merely need to show that they are making steps toward compliance: “As long as they are making a good effort to come into compliance with the law, they fall down low on our triage of problem children. We will work with them to get them licensed and focus on more urgent matters,” Heimerich said.
mgirdley 13y ago
The regulator wants them to follow the law, as written, by the CA Assembly. Terrible title considering the regulator simply wants them to follow the law -- and says so in the article. Don't blame the regulator here. Most state's laws for career schools are intended to protect people against scams. So, yeah, a few truck driving schools ripped some GED holding people off. We all suffer including these guys in CA.
deleted 13y ago
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aric 13y ago
Regulation for this exists. It's called free speech and the internet. Reputation online is practically everything to the credibility of workshops or services like this. It's a real wonder that people can still use their own minds without a gauntlet for approval. There will come day for that given the technology. It'll be done under the best of intentions, of course. A fool and his money are soon parted. But so too is a fool from his freedom and choice.
- wpietri 13y ago
  That depends on what audience they target. For the high end of the market, sure, people will do a lot of research. But if you are a scam artist running a school like this, it will be relatively easy to dupe the less clueful end of the market. For example, you can set up new school every 12 weeks. Or you can fake a good on-line reputation. Read up on the many scams that for-profit schools are running. Even some of the regulated ones are up to dubious stuff. The unregulated ones, like the "life experience degree" people, are much worse.
  - aric 13y ago
    I share deep concerns about anything seemingly scammy. Modeling ways in which societies can prevent more people from being exploited is one of my 'hobbies.' There are many paths that can help. The path that's most wise and ethical, I'd argue, is a route that respects more free choice and builds more groundwork for cultural conditions that are more conducive to skepticism and information-based awareness. Many of the current methods of interference, licensing, and monopolistic-fueling procedures -- often under a sheep's clothing of a supposed collective trust -- have countless damaging effects in the long run. It will overwhelm society in other negative ways to gain temporary positives in protection. It erodes progress. It often shifts access to the powerful. I won't get into it here but it's all part and parcel of fueling corporatism in general. Distrust is critical. Distrust should pervade consciousness. The opposite happens as a result of many current policies. People start to mindlessly believe in claims more than they already do. I believe there's a large vacuum that waits to be filled where third-party cooperatives fill the thirst that people would otherwise have for vetting trust (e.g. NGO regulatory bodies, quality/certification programs, voluntary submissions to transparency) -- given a remarkably underutilized internet -- except a great push won't happen until a tipping point occurs. The public will have to say enough is enough and reject the double-edged sword of policy. Deferring more solutions to an entity comprised of people willing and eager to wage violence and torture as a method of order: this ultimately grows insidious laws and insidious forms of reasoning as a whole. There's a good argument that a state can have greater legitimacy when it's relegated to a role as a more supportive backbone of arbitrating claims and disputes, while vastly decreasing corporate control/protection. This would render most executives more vulnerable to loss of assets. This would naturally decrease a person's willingness to be deceptive. A bridge to this model could be as simple as first requiring disclaimers by any independent service that wishes to oppose a status quo. It would allow choice/consent. "This [entity] has not been regulated or verified by [authority]." Grandmas, grandpas, and the like are naturally more vulnerable. No one wants people to lose their life savings due to natural mental circumstances that beget trust. I'm all for any effort that perpetuates exposure and awareness of scams and lends power to grievances.
wallawe 13y ago
"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it."
hncommenter13 13y ago
This is kind of a bugaboo for me. I am continually surprised by the attitude that seems common in the tech industry that laws governing all other industries are misapplied or useless when it comes to tech. I get that the hacker culture is to beg forgiveness rather than ask permission, but sometimes this causes real hardships. Imagine they were teaching an older generation of technology: automobile maintenance, say? Or TV repair? And I implied to graduates that they'd get jobs at GM or GE? It is extremely difficult to check out a new, for-profit school's reputation thoroughly in terms of the success of its graduates and the quality of its instruction. There are thousands of stories of students taking on unsustainable levels of debt to go to culinary school, for example, only to work for peanuts in non-elite kitchens. What makes software engineering exempt? Alternatively, why should bootcamps be allowed to avoid the law--which applies to all other for-profit post-secondary schools--because they teach Rails and Javascript instead of refrigerator maintenance?
deleted 13y ago
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null_ptr 13y ago
Speak of selling shovels during a gold rush!
marincounty 13y ago
I became a little suspicious of the "learn to code" boot camps when the first of I looked at was female only. Why female only in this point in history? My conclusion; at the end of the course--the average Hacker Dude would question the cost if the education, the versaity of "I'm a Koder now, and it only took a few weeks!". I'm not for a lot of regulation, but in this case I think these schools need a through vetting. They are not cheap, and promise a lot. Off subject, but I'm still angry that Gov. Brown made it more difficult to become a Realestate Broker. He did away with the 4 year degree requirement, as a fast track to getting a broker's license. It's ironic that Governor Terminator saw right through the B.S., and vetoed the bill. From that point on; I never vote strictly Democratic. And yes--I'm off topic. sorry.
- nmodu 13y ago
  > Why female only in this point in history? Of all the reasons to be suspicious of "learn to code" bootcamps, your aversion to women-only programs has me confused. "Why female only...?": Probably because the founders of those programs would like to see more women coding. Same reason organizations like "Girls Who Code" exist. The fact that those programs are geared towards an underrepresented demographic shouldn't raise any red flags.
kyleblarson 13y ago
"Steve Eisman, the outspoken investor whose huge wager against the subprime mortgage market was chronicled by author Michael Lewis in his bestselling book The Big Short, has set sights on a new target: for-profit colleges" http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2010/05/steve-eisman-big-short-michael-lewis http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2010/05/steve-eisman-big-sho...
brosco45 13y ago
These bootcamp are nothing but scams.
dtrizzle 13y ago
I strongly consider attending one of these boot camps, but pulled out at the last minute because I became suspicious of their claims. I’m not saying the claims were untrue, but they were grand enough to make me nervous about dropping over $10,000. I basically did it the long way. I took as many classes as I could at my local community college (intro to cs, intro to programming, advanced programming, oop, data structures, assembly language and web development). I feel like I got a great education at the CS basics. I think I can code. I know pointers, hash tables, abstract data structures and other things that the boot camps don’t even seem to cover, but haven’t even been able to get a single interview. Perhaps the real value in these programs is the career placement.
- minddog111 13y ago
  I have been trying learn to code for 20 years went community colleges ect went to tech skills .com ect bottom line the best way to learn is you tube and a hacker,s hear if you want to learn you don,t need to spend 20 k unless you think you need to it is a cult but they have a track and and a method. I have a need codeing system and it is the best because i show folks how to get the basics js frame works and .
navyrain 13y ago
These "bootcamps" delude students into believing they can be placed in a good job if they pay up. I've worked with graduates of these programs, and found them to be eager and optimistic, but woefully ill-prepared for professional software development. I'd love to see more programmers, but this cash-grab bootcamp practice makes our entire industry look bad.
- namocat 13y ago
  > eager and optimistic, but woefully ill-prepared for professional software development. Mind elaborating on this? I'm currently going through one of these and am curious for when I am applying for my first post-bootcamp job.
  - navyrain 13y ago
    Coming from the webapp world: How do you work with a team of people committing to the same repository? How do you review code? How do you find solutions to problems when they're not being spoon-fed to you in a bootcamp? What makes an application reliable? Well-designed? Scalable? When should something be improved upon, and when should it be chucked and rewritten? How can an application be hacked? How do you design DB schemas, and query them efficiently? These are the sorts of things you implicitly trust a developer to know. The bootcamp students I've seen fail to realize that these are even issues, and get a big wake-up call to when they come up short in their first job. As a result, they struggle at the lowest rung in the ladder, as their coworkers cannot trust them to do any reliable work.
    - namocat 13y ago
      Any advice on how to develop these skills? Would it just be experience? If so, it seems to me to be a chicken-egg scenario where it sounds like you'd need several years of experience to even get an entry-level or "lowest rung" position in the industry. I view my "accelerator" experience as just that: an acceleration of my learning, so that I can transition (even if it is at the lowest rung) into an industry that I feel is exciting and fascinating. I view these bootcamps as being the beginning of one's education, not the end.

104 points by coloneltcb 13y ago

I'm not really pro-regulation but this might be a good thing. I feel like we're in a "bootcamp bubble" at the moment. As much as I'd like for every bootcamp to have altruistic motives, some seem like a money-grab to me. This is especially evidenced by the smaller and smaller program lengths ("Learn to code in 12 weeks" is now "Learn to code in 8 weeks" or "Learn to do a startup in 4 weeks")[1][2]. Personally, I wish California's community college system would learn to move a little faster, spend $ to hire some talented instructors, and add modern certificate programs in programming/iOS/Rails/Android/UX/DevOps/etc. It's a big system (100+) schools, extremely affordable ($46/unit + lots of financial aid), and a decent length (most certificate programs are 12-20 units or 1-2 semesters). [1] http://www.codefellows.org/ http://www.codefellows.org/ [2] http://fitzroygsd.com/ http://fitzroygsd.com/

CompleteMoron 13y ago
I dont think anything has happened yet to trigger a bootcamp incident of people getting beat out of their life savings to learn how to code FORTRAN for CGI apps on gopher where anything needs to be regulated. Point me to some of these scams, I'd say yes - it's gone the way of Devry Institute - although like anything a fool and his money is soon parted and if you really want to learn, you'll do it at a bootcamp, and a bad college or on your own impetus regardless of cash outlay.
romanovcode 13y ago
Exactly, now some poor chump who finishes this bootcamp in 4 weeks thinks he is some kind of code-wizzard just because he can draw a stickman using javascript. Bootcams are modern versions of "Learn {php/c++/etc..} in 24 hours" books. AFAIK those things are a complete waste of money.
- akama 13y ago
  I have read a couple of those books and liked them for learn the syntax of a language.
  - romanovcode 13y ago
    You miss the point. Sure, when you have years of programming experience you can just pick up syntax and start coding. How about when you have zero experience? Not so much helpful now.
    - Crito 13y ago
      The hypothetical poor chump came out of it knowing how to draw a stickman in javascript, right? Can't be that bad then. If "coding bootcamps" are really the new "Learn [whatever] in [X] Days", then does that imply that those book are currently regulated, or should be regulated? Should the State of California protect poor chumps from books that might artificially raise their egos?
      - ericd 13y ago
        If they buy one of those books and work through it but don't get a job, they're out of some time and maybe $30, but they have some skills now. If they go to one of those boot camps thinking they're going to get the same job as someone who did a 4 year degree at an elite school and did a ton of side projects, they're probably now out of >$10k with arguably less skill than the person who went through the books. I'm all for the government preventing fraudulent advertising. That's one of the things they're there for.
        Crito 13y ago
        What is the bar here? If I sell a self-help book for many thousands of dollars and people mistakenly ascribe undeserved value to my books, is California going to attempt to step in to protect the poor chumps? I suspect not.
Finster 13y ago
It's interesting that you wish California would move faster and be more innovative regarding various tech-related occupations, but also support regulation of a sector that IS moving faster and being innovative. Mind-numbing, soul-destroying, California-style bureaucracy is not the answer here. Instead, I support self-regulation. Other industries have done it. I'd rather see prominent tech academies come together and form their own standards body.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  What's the difference between self regulation and collusion?
  - gnarbarian 13y ago
    whether the regulator has been paid off or not. seriously though, barriers to entry, the number of competing firms, anti competitive behavior etc. Low barriers to entry mean that if existing firms collude to artificially raise prices a new competitor may easily enter the market to undercut them. A larger number of firms makes collusion less likely (see OPEC for example). Their attempts to collude are often met with one member state undercutting the agreed upon price and getting most of the business. Other factors are also in play such as whether the industry is most efficiently served by a single entity as in a "natural monopoly"
  - drak0n1c 13y ago
    Higher education in the US is largely self-regulated via the accreditation process. The government has minimal oversight of that self-regulation, mostly through the GI bill. Self-regulation doesn't mean they collude in a bad way (though there are suspicions that the rising cost of tuition is a collusion problem). Self-regulation is a form of collusion that, when done right, is good for producers and consumers - LEED or certain organic food certifications or academic accreditation are easy ways for consumers to know what they are getting and for producers to limit the negative price and quality pressure of "lemons" (bad products) on the marketplace. And it achieves this effect without heavy handed bans that limit consumer choice.
- 13y ago
akkartik 13y ago
I gather you're asking for a law to protect students from being overcharged relative to the services they're provided. But this regulation isn't intended for that, as far as I can see: http://www.bppe.ca.gov/lawsregs/ppe_act.shtml http://www.bppe.ca.gov/lawsregs/ppe_act.shtml
tn13 13y ago
"I am from government and I am here to help" I shudder every time I hear those words. As long as people have a choice between to attend or not to attend a bootcamp I dont see how government can step in.
- bicknergseng 13y ago
  As long as people have a choice between to invest or not invest in Madoff's pink sheets I don't see how government can step in.
  - Crito 13y ago
    That would not be my first choice for an example of successful government regulation...
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      it would have been an excellent example for self regulation if we had let the banks fail. then go into bankruptcy, the surviving banks could then purchase the assets at reduced costs, if not enough banks survived to aquire the assets we could have helped the surviving banks purchase the assets via loans to them. instead we just bailed out the shitty banks and the good banks were penalized for their shrewd investing.
    - bicknergseng 13y ago
      Successful, not really (though Madoff is in jail and some billions of investor money recovered), but a pretty good example of a place where regulation is necessary. Maybe a better one for this particular issue would be University of Phoenix and other for-profit colleges. I think there's been some success with these bootcamps, but what if that dries up... what then is the difference? Good intentions? Edit: not trying to be overly harsh on the bootcamps... I think they're pretty neat and a good idea on the whole. I also don't think they should escape the protections government regulation, done properly, can provide.
      - 13y ago
arikrak 13y ago
Are there any statistics on how long it takes people to land jobs after they graduate from the larger programs?
- EricDeb 13y ago
  I know a couple people who've been through them and it seems to have tapered off a bit - at least with respect to RoR bootcamps. If the students stick with it most of them can get jobs within 6 months of starting one of the programs but it seems to be a limited number who get jobs immediately after finishing.
jamra 13y ago
I went to a California community college as well as a California state college. The problem with what you are proposing is that they are already so low on classes, they can't cover the basic comp sci curriculum. This means that you are asking to add courses, which will replace what they currently have available. It is not uncommon to cancel classes with low enrollment. The level of quality in state colleges in California is frighteningly low. I had comp engineering students ask me what constructors were in a data structures course. There is no way to make California schools teach more useful technology stacks if they cannot cover the basics. Another thing that really annoys me in the California state college level is the apathy of the professors. You have professors who do no research that have watered down the material to an extreme degree. That same person who asked me what a class constructor was graduated with me. It may be a great way of getting very low level programmers or even people who are looking to change professions, but you would be ruining what little comp sci core material that they still teach. I attended an iOS bootcamp a while back. I found it to be educational, however, the amount of time you spend on coding is so low, I can't imagine anyone but a seasoned programmer benefiting from the experience.
unethical_ban 13y ago
>As much as I'd like for every bootcamp to have altruistic motives, some seem like a money-grab to me. Regulation should not ALWAYS assume a stupid citizen. Just like total surveillance might make us somewhat safer, total regulation might make things somewhat less fraudulent. But do the benefits justify the costs: bureaucracy, cementing a fast-paced industry in the molasses of government? Creating a new set of taxes, fees, and public employees?
dragonwriter 13y ago
> Personally, I wish California's community college system would learn to move a little faster, spend $ to hire some talented instructors, and add modern certificate programs in programming/iOS/Rails/Android/UX/DevOps/etc. It's a big system (100+) schools, extremely affordable ($46/unit + lots of financial aid To expand (rather than contracting) programs, California's Community Colleges would either need to get more support from tax revenue or become less "extremely affordable".

zenbowman 13y ago

Regulators thinking they know what is best for us and cracking down on those who are vulnerable is nothing new. Such is life in California.

benihana 13y ago

What happened to California? It used to be the center of counter culture, now it's biggest symbol of The Man around. It's a big terrified nanny state where everyone in charge seems to be too scared to let anyone do anything cause it might hurt them emotionally or physically. I've never lived in California, so I may be way off, but it seems like the decline of a once defiant state is a great metaphor for the baby boomers who made it the center of the counter culture. They started off young and angry, fighting against injustice, and as they got older, the turned into the system they were fighting. They became The Man, scared of things they didn't understand and absolutely terrified of not being in control. It's like watching Citizen Kane if Charles Foster Kane was a state. The quote "the most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution," seems applicable here. Are we all doomed to repeat this fate, to fight the system, accomplish our goals, then become the system as we try to hold on to what we've made?

dylandrop 13y ago
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much. First off, those who are regulating are not those who founded tech startups. Additionally, if the general startup credo is "Move fast and break things", well, people shouldn't be surprised if they get fined. If these schools are charging $17K tuitions and are being fined a possible $50K, that seems like a bit of a slap on the wrist. Furthermore, a lot of these regulations are in place for a reason -- and if startups want to break regulations, then they well know they're getting into shady territory. This is hardly "nanny state" behavior -- a good deal of these infractions are warranted (FDA's shutdown of 23andme, transportation on Uber and Lyft), but it varies on a case-per-case basis. I'd much rather live in a place that aired on the side of too cautious rather than just let random folk start whatever they want, causing harm to those around them. In this case in particular, I'm glad they're regulating this stuff. We see randoms every day applying to work at our startup who have finished these hack-bootcamp things, and they frankly just don't have what it takes to work in a professional environment.
chc 13y ago
In this case, I think the point is to protect people from being hurt financially. As best I can tell, he's essentially trying to make sure that schools live up to certain standards.

dylandrop 13y ago

At Hack Reactor, where tuition costs over $17,000, 99 percent of students are offered a job at companies like Adobe and Google. Am I the only one who is skeptical of this? I'd really like to see the breakdown on this one..

klochner 13y ago
I also dropped in to call bullshit on that claim. If I had to guess, I'd say the better students (top 30%) end up at mid-tier tech companies, with salaries in the $60-$80k range.
jamra 13y ago
They are doing the same thing that Devry was. They are making up statistics about job placement to justify the high tuitions. This should be punishable by the state. 99% placement is impossibly high.
ychung 13y ago
I am currently a student at Hack Reactor and I can assure you that the average salary students are offered coming out of the program are a lot higher than 60-80k, and the statistics are real. I've been very impressed with the program and highly recommend it. If you're inclined, please refer to this Quora post for additional details: http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-reasons-why-some-Hack-Reactor-graduates-the-2-are-unable-to-find-software-engineering-jobs-upon-graduation http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-re...
- dylandrop 13y ago
  Thanks for the information -- but this still doesn't spell out any breakdowns of who gets jobs where. This specifies that ~98% get jobs -- but at companies like Adobe and Google? I know plenty of grads from top tier bachelor CS programs at some of the highest ranked schools, and I'd still say that roughly less than half get a job offer at Google. I don't want to sound snobbish... but no doubt these guys would have a better shot than someone who began coding less than 3 months before? Until I see a breakdown it's really hard to say the quote isn't blown out of proportion.

sologoub 13y ago

"At Hack Reactor, where tuition costs over $17,000, 99 percent of students are offered a job at companies like Adobe and Google." That seems at odds with my general perception of who Google recruits and of the tough nature of their interviews... Anyone have first hand experience of going through one of these without prior tech experience and then landing a job at Google or other name-brand employers?

ychung 13y ago
I am currently a senior at Hack Reactor, and I can vouch for the high quality of education and job prep that HR gives its students. The figures that HR mention are real, and we have students who are now working at places like Google. For more information, refer to this quora post: http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-reasons-why-some-Hack-Reactor-graduates-the-2-are-unable-to-find-software-engineering-jobs-upon-graduation http://www.quora.com/Hack-Reactor/What-are-some-suspected-re...
- aaronem 13y ago
  "We have students who are now working at places like Google" is nothing like the same as "99% of our graduates receive job offers from companies like Adobe and Google."
  - sologoub 13y ago
    Right, that's my thought also - what % actually at least gets an interview at Google, and what % gets hired?
  - SnacksOnAPlane 13y ago
    I love the line "companies like Adobe and Google". McDonald's is a company like Adobe and Google, in the sense that it has a name and sells things.
- Crito 13y ago
  Does "like Google" mean "Google, for example" or does it mean "places that are like Google, but not necessarily Google"? I assume it is the first, not the misleading second. ;)

lowglow 13y ago

The current talent crunch has brought a TON of shady bootcamps to the valley that are preying on innocent hopefuls. I even built http://schools.techendo.co/ http://schools.techendo.co/ to help people under-equipped to evaluate these schools. It's a true problem. [edit] Related post: http://www.techendo.co/posts/are-dev-bootcamps-a-scam-a-hacker-s-perspective http://www.techendo.co/posts/are-dev-bootcamps-a-scam-a-hack...

my_username_is_ 13y ago
it may be helpful to people who are trying to evaluate different bootcamps to attend for you to include some sort of ranking of the top-rated 'schools' that being said, it's awesome that you made that. I'm not aware of anywhere that lets people evaluate their bootcamp experience and it'll be great if/when more people review what they went through

acangiano 13y ago

Whether you like her or not, agree or disagree with her, Ayn Rand has two great relevant quotes: "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force." and "Government 'help' to business is just as disastrous as government persecution... the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off."

jamra 13y ago
Ayn Rand's opinions don't fit into a hybrid social system like ours. It can only be rationalized in a communist or other totalitarian society. Can you imagine a corporation with unlimited power that is free to do anything it pleases? We need government to regulate predatory practices. It would be great if government would step up and regulate healthcare costs and credit card providers a bit more harshly.
- aaronem 13y ago
  > Can you imagine a corporation with unlimited power that is free to do anything it pleases? Quite easily! It is called a "government".
  - jamra 13y ago
    The government has elected representatives. It's not totalitarian. In a state with zero government regulation, you have just as terrible atrocities.
    - aaronem 13y ago
      Some governments have elected representatives; while lately very much in fashion, this is by no means a requirement.
maxmax 13y ago
(December 1963)

Crito 13y ago

Honest question: Do they similarly attempt to regulate "learn to camp" [literal] camps? Do they go after/regulate GSUSA or BSA camps? Since they are asserting that these are "post-secondary education" things, does that mean that organizations targeted at children are safe? Are organizations like Hacker Scouts in the clear?

pmorici 13y ago

Reading the headline I was like WTF that sounds like government run a muck. Then I got to this part... "The programs typically last 10 to 12 weeks. Potential recruits are often told that they have a shot at a job or internship at a competitive tech company like Facebook or Google. Tuition costs vary widely. At Hackbright Academy, it’s $15,000 for a 10 week program. Full scholarships are available, and students who land a job at a company in the Hackbright network can request a partial refund. At Hack Reactor, where tuition costs over $17,000, 99 percent of students are offered a job at companies like Adobe and Google. The average salary is over six figures, Phillips told me." To sum up these companies are charging a lot of money (more than college tuition) while at the same time advertising extraordinary results "99% job placement" with the likes of Google and Adobe. I'm guessing that some of them are making false advertising claims with respect to the chances of landing a job and that is why there is scrutiny here. There was a similar case with cooking schools not long ago also in CA[0] After reading that paragraph I'm a lot more skeptical of these companies. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-ripped-off_n_950107.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-gra...

ajross 13y ago
That's exactly what I'm thinking. If you're going to charge tuition in excess of what existing community colleges do, I think you need to expect to be regulated like one. I just don't see how the cost structure of putting a dozen students and an instructor in a room with laptops for a week comes to ~$20000. That seems pretty suspicious.
- pmorici 13y ago
  It's not even the price that is a problem per se the problem is the extraordinary claims. It's like the Bernie Madoff of education schemes. Who wouldn't invest 15k to have a "99%" chance of getting a 6 figure job with Google? Of course when you think about it that is almost certainly a false claim but someone w/o engineering experience probably doesn't realize that.
  - eqdw 13y ago

mikeryan 13y ago

Jeez the article itself contradicts the linkbait headline. “Our primary goal is not to collect a fine. It is to drive them to comply with the law,” said Russ Heimerich, a spokesperson for BPPE. Heimerich is confident that these companies would lose in court if they attempt to fight BPPE. Heimerich stressed that these bootcamps merely need to show that they are making steps toward compliance: “As long as they are making a good effort to come into compliance with the law, they fall down low on our triage of problem children. We will work with them to get them licensed and focus on more urgent matters,” Heimerich said.

mgirdley 13y ago

The regulator wants them to follow the law, as written, by the CA Assembly. Terrible title considering the regulator simply wants them to follow the law -- and says so in the article. Don't blame the regulator here. Most state's laws for career schools are intended to protect people against scams. So, yeah, a few truck driving schools ripped some GED holding people off. We all suffer including these guys in CA.

deleted 13y ago

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aric 13y ago

Regulation for this exists. It's called free speech and the internet. Reputation online is practically everything to the credibility of workshops or services like this. It's a real wonder that people can still use their own minds without a gauntlet for approval. There will come day for that given the technology. It'll be done under the best of intentions, of course. A fool and his money are soon parted. But so too is a fool from his freedom and choice.

wpietri 13y ago
That depends on what audience they target. For the high end of the market, sure, people will do a lot of research. But if you are a scam artist running a school like this, it will be relatively easy to dupe the less clueful end of the market. For example, you can set up new school every 12 weeks. Or you can fake a good on-line reputation. Read up on the many scams that for-profit schools are running. Even some of the regulated ones are up to dubious stuff. The unregulated ones, like the "life experience degree" people, are much worse.
- aric 13y ago
  I share deep concerns about anything seemingly scammy. Modeling ways in which societies can prevent more people from being exploited is one of my 'hobbies.' There are many paths that can help. The path that's most wise and ethical, I'd argue, is a route that respects more free choice and builds more groundwork for cultural conditions that are more conducive to skepticism and information-based awareness. Many of the current methods of interference, licensing, and monopolistic-fueling procedures -- often under a sheep's clothing of a supposed collective trust -- have countless damaging effects in the long run. It will overwhelm society in other negative ways to gain temporary positives in protection. It erodes progress. It often shifts access to the powerful. I won't get into it here but it's all part and parcel of fueling corporatism in general. Distrust is critical. Distrust should pervade consciousness. The opposite happens as a result of many current policies. People start to mindlessly believe in claims more than they already do. I believe there's a large vacuum that waits to be filled where third-party cooperatives fill the thirst that people would otherwise have for vetting trust (e.g. NGO regulatory bodies, quality/certification programs, voluntary submissions to transparency) -- given a remarkably underutilized internet -- except a great push won't happen until a tipping point occurs. The public will have to say enough is enough and reject the double-edged sword of policy. Deferring more solutions to an entity comprised of people willing and eager to wage violence and torture as a method of order: this ultimately grows insidious laws and insidious forms of reasoning as a whole. There's a good argument that a state can have greater legitimacy when it's relegated to a role as a more supportive backbone of arbitrating claims and disputes, while vastly decreasing corporate control/protection. This would render most executives more vulnerable to loss of assets. This would naturally decrease a person's willingness to be deceptive. A bridge to this model could be as simple as first requiring disclaimers by any independent service that wishes to oppose a status quo. It would allow choice/consent. "This [entity] has not been regulated or verified by [authority]." Grandmas, grandpas, and the like are naturally more vulnerable. No one wants people to lose their life savings due to natural mental circumstances that beget trust. I'm all for any effort that perpetuates exposure and awareness of scams and lends power to grievances.

wallawe 13y ago

"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it."

hncommenter13 13y ago

This is kind of a bugaboo for me. I am continually surprised by the attitude that seems common in the tech industry that laws governing all other industries are misapplied or useless when it comes to tech. I get that the hacker culture is to beg forgiveness rather than ask permission, but sometimes this causes real hardships. Imagine they were teaching an older generation of technology: automobile maintenance, say? Or TV repair? And I implied to graduates that they'd get jobs at GM or GE? It is extremely difficult to check out a new, for-profit school's reputation thoroughly in terms of the success of its graduates and the quality of its instruction. There are thousands of stories of students taking on unsustainable levels of debt to go to culinary school, for example, only to work for peanuts in non-elite kitchens. What makes software engineering exempt? Alternatively, why should bootcamps be allowed to avoid the law--which applies to all other for-profit post-secondary schools--because they teach Rails and Javascript instead of refrigerator maintenance?

deleted 13y ago

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null_ptr 13y ago

Speak of selling shovels during a gold rush!

marincounty 13y ago

I became a little suspicious of the "learn to code" boot camps when the first of I looked at was female only. Why female only in this point in history? My conclusion; at the end of the course--the average Hacker Dude would question the cost if the education, the versaity of "I'm a Koder now, and it only took a few weeks!". I'm not for a lot of regulation, but in this case I think these schools need a through vetting. They are not cheap, and promise a lot. Off subject, but I'm still angry that Gov. Brown made it more difficult to become a Realestate Broker. He did away with the 4 year degree requirement, as a fast track to getting a broker's license. It's ironic that Governor Terminator saw right through the B.S., and vetoed the bill. From that point on; I never vote strictly Democratic. And yes--I'm off topic. sorry.

nmodu 13y ago
> Why female only in this point in history? Of all the reasons to be suspicious of "learn to code" bootcamps, your aversion to women-only programs has me confused. "Why female only...?": Probably because the founders of those programs would like to see more women coding. Same reason organizations like "Girls Who Code" exist. The fact that those programs are geared towards an underrepresented demographic shouldn't raise any red flags.

kyleblarson 13y ago

"Steve Eisman, the outspoken investor whose huge wager against the subprime mortgage market was chronicled by author Michael Lewis in his bestselling book The Big Short, has set sights on a new target: for-profit colleges" http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2010/05/steve-eisman-big-short-michael-lewis http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2010/05/steve-eisman-big-sho...

brosco45 13y ago

These bootcamp are nothing but scams.

dtrizzle 13y ago

I strongly consider attending one of these boot camps, but pulled out at the last minute because I became suspicious of their claims. I’m not saying the claims were untrue, but they were grand enough to make me nervous about dropping over $10,000. I basically did it the long way. I took as many classes as I could at my local community college (intro to cs, intro to programming, advanced programming, oop, data structures, assembly language and web development). I feel like I got a great education at the CS basics. I think I can code. I know pointers, hash tables, abstract data structures and other things that the boot camps don’t even seem to cover, but haven’t even been able to get a single interview. Perhaps the real value in these programs is the career placement.

minddog111 13y ago
I have been trying learn to code for 20 years went community colleges ect went to tech skills .com ect bottom line the best way to learn is you tube and a hacker,s hear if you want to learn you don,t need to spend 20 k unless you think you need to it is a cult but they have a track and and a method. I have a need codeing system and it is the best because i show folks how to get the basics js frame works and .

navyrain 13y ago

These "bootcamps" delude students into believing they can be placed in a good job if they pay up. I've worked with graduates of these programs, and found them to be eager and optimistic, but woefully ill-prepared for professional software development. I'd love to see more programmers, but this cash-grab bootcamp practice makes our entire industry look bad.

namocat 13y ago
> eager and optimistic, but woefully ill-prepared for professional software development. Mind elaborating on this? I'm currently going through one of these and am curious for when I am applying for my first post-bootcamp job.
- navyrain 13y ago
  Coming from the webapp world: How do you work with a team of people committing to the same repository? How do you review code? How do you find solutions to problems when they're not being spoon-fed to you in a bootcamp? What makes an application reliable? Well-designed? Scalable? When should something be improved upon, and when should it be chucked and rewritten? How can an application be hacked? How do you design DB schemas, and query them efficiently? These are the sorts of things you implicitly trust a developer to know. The bootcamp students I've seen fail to realize that these are even issues, and get a big wake-up call to when they come up short in their first job. As a result, they struggle at the lowest rung in the ladder, as their coworkers cannot trust them to do any reliable work.
  - namocat 13y ago
    Any advice on how to develop these skills? Would it just be experience? If so, it seems to me to be a chicken-egg scenario where it sounds like you'd need several years of experience to even get an entry-level or "lowest rung" position in the industry. I view my "accelerator" experience as just that: an acceleration of my learning, so that I can transition (even if it is at the lowest rung) into an industry that I feel is exciting and fascinating. I view these bootcamps as being the beginning of one's education, not the end.