5 ms·

I can't stand this kind of thing. Why? Because artisanal at scale is no longer artisanal. Not in food and beverages, anyway. Sure fancy electronics are made at

by redwood 13y ago

I can't stand this kind of thing. Why? Because artisanal at scale is no longer artisanal. Not in food and beverages, anyway. Sure fancy electronics are made at scale and we consider some of them to be best of breed. But in food and beverages, best of breed is never, can never, should never be at scale. Thus this just means another chain of coffee. Great. Even if it's an improvement on existing chains: it's bad for independent artisanals (just like Blue Bottle was) everywhere it goes. Which is bad for all of us. I guess I just don't like "selling" the uniquely artisanal concept when it's no longer uniquely artisanal. It feels hollow and deceptive.

rubiquity 13y ago
Well said. I'd also like to add that anyone that hasn't already noticed the quality of both their coffee beans and baristas declining in the last 3 years probably doesn't own taste buds, or maybe Starbucks is just that awful. Kudos to Blue Bottle though. They're probably going to make a ton of money by being marginally (but still noticably) better than Starbucks.
- astrange 13y ago
  Do you have some of their coffee from 3 years ago to compare? Maybe you burned your tongue too much over the last few years, and that's why it tastes different.
  - rubiquity 13y ago
    Three year old coffee wouldn't taste very good.
adamio 13y ago
I agree, its a coffee chain. It has to be hype and marketing. Does this coffee company have patents on a new roasting method that scales, or some breakthrough technique to save on logistics? It seems like it's only a play on perception and hype. From 2012 http://www.trueventures.com/2012/10/10/welcoming-blue-bottle-coffee/ http://www.trueventures.com/2012/10/10/welcoming-blue-bottle... "We’re also pleased to announce that Bryan Meehan, a good friend and an accomplished entrepreneur, has joined Blue Bottle full-time as Executive Chairman, contributing his significant expertise to all areas of strategy, marketing and operations. Bryan previously founded, grew and sold two premium specialty retail chains that share key similarities with Blue Bottle: 1) Fresh & Wild, an organic supermarket chain acquired by Whole Foods in 2004; and 2) Nude Skincare, a luxury natural skincare company acquired by LVMH in 2011."
bpodgursky 13y ago
I guess I just don't understand this mindset. I prefer food that tastes good, and don't really care whether 10 or 1,000,000 other people are able to enjoy it as well. Doesn't hurt me if they can reproduce it on a mass scale.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  Yeah, this "not wanting to share" mindset of hipsters is probably the most repulsive thing about them to me.
- BrainInAJar 13y ago
  > Doesn't hurt me if they can reproduce it on a mass scale. But they can't, because we're talking about production lots that are on the order of a few hundred pounds of coffee, That doesn't scale far (a busy cafe will burn through 15lbs a day easily, plus wastage, retail bags, etc)
- 001sky 13y ago
  I guess I just don't understand this mindset. Like "off the rack, bespoke", it's self-contradictory. There is no such thing as "factory scale, artisinal" food. The abuse of marketing buzzwords to mask inferior production is as old as fake-yellow-cheese.
angersock 13y ago
But in food and beverages, best of breed is never, can never, should never be at scale. But at scale it is far, far easier to guarantee quality and consistency of product, and to gain the experience needed to achieve best-of-breed products. Unless you are implying that the imperfections in the production process are part of the artisanality?
- 001sky 13y ago
  "The adjective "artisanal" is sometimes used in describing hand-processing in what is usually viewed as an industrial process" By definition, artisinal production is distinguished by type. That doesn't mean all mass produced things are bad. It just means the marketing is hypocritical, in a bait-and-switch kind of way. Which, admittedly, is more of a problem for those who are over-invested emotionally in a brand or product. Using 'artisanal' as a "busienss strategy" was originally adopted to encourage such emotional investment. The fetishization of 'handmade', in part, related to its implied.natural scarcity. The latter makes it also hipster-fodder.
eps 13y ago
You got the whole coffee thing ass-backwards. It doesn't matter if it's "artisanal". What only matters is if it tastes good. But if it tastes good because it's artisanal, then it's certainly a problem. Though not with Blue Bottle, but you and your snobbery. How the f#ck getting great coffee in more places is "bad for all of us". Do you actually read what you type? > But in food and beverages, best of breed is never, can never, should never be at scale. Of course, it can! Just look at wines, look at cheeses, look a damn puy lentils. Look at caviar. You are just making shit up.
- mwfunk 13y ago
  I don't understand- wine is a perfect example of something that doesn't scale. The process of making wine is fundamentally very different for the typical mass-market grocery store wine than it is for a smaller winemaker. They have to put in all kinds of additives to make the output of high-volume wine production palatable, and the end result is something that may be perfectly drinkable but no one would consider best-of-breed wine. In extreme cases (like white zin), it's closer to artificially flavored and sweetened alcoholic grape juice than what a lot of people would even consider wine. That's not snobbery, that's just how it is. The process of producing really good wine is very inefficient by comparison, and part of the reason it can be so good is because it requires (for example) very specific grapes that don't even exist in large enough numbers to mass-produce that wine. I'm not even saying that mass market wine is bad. I've gladly drunk more than my share of dirt cheap wine over the years (and enjoyed it!) but I harbor no illusions that it's the best wine there is. I could totally see coffee as being a similar thing- you could scale it up and get a pretty decent mass-market approximation of the original, and it might even be pretty darned good, but it's not going to be the same as the original. It can be high-volume, best-of-breed, or reasonably priced- pick any two. I think that's all the original poster was saying. It's not snobbery, it's just the realities of that industry.
debt 13y ago
I can't stand this thing because it's coffee. It's like artisanal heroin. Coffee, in my mind, is meant to wake me up and get me going. It's purely a functional thing. A good cup of coffee is just a not bad cup of coffee. How did this complication about coffee happen? I see the same thing happening with headphones. People listening to Diplo on $1500 Sennheiser headphones; for why? What tones and notes are you trying to get out of that? The same question could almost be asked of coffee. The human tongue, I'm sure, can only process so many taste combinations. What are we trying to get out of coffee?
- 3minus1 13y ago
  Some people just like the experience of drinking coffee: the hot liquid that slowly cools, the bitter taste, and of course the caffeine. I started trying to cut out caffeine and I actually still drink de-caf, and enjoy it.
- calbear81 13y ago
  That's like saying I can't stand people who make good cocktails because in my mind, alcohol is supposed to get me drunk. Some people just like coffee and the coffee we've had for such a long time in America has been either burnt, tasteless, or mixed with a bunch of flavors such that we've forgotten that a well brewed coffee doesn't need to taste bitter. We've also discovered that coffee acquires flavor not just from roasting but also from it's provenance (just like wine, the terroir matters) so now you can taste for coffees that have caramel notes, coffees that have bright cherry notes, etc. Another reason that I think it matters is that the difference between shitty coffee and good coffee is so clear. We're not talking about trying to discern a slight difference. I've been drinking lattes in the Midwest while traveling and they are the worst thing ever. It's like the heated water, milk, and a touch of coffee. A great latte (like at Ritual Coffee Roasters) retains the taste of coffee (espresso) with a creamy blend of frothed milk.
calbear81 13y ago
I think it is still uniquely artisanal if they continue to adhere to some principles around how fresh the beans need to be, roasting locally, sourcing ethically, and continuing to make coffee in a way that respects the craft. If they start shipping out bags of coffee nationwide from a central roasting plant and keep coffee in warming pots, then I would say they've gone from craft coffee brewer to just another coffee chain. ... and they make a mean New Orleans iced coffee.

by redwood 13y ago

rubiquity 13y ago

Well said. I'd also like to add that anyone that hasn't already noticed the quality of both their coffee beans and baristas declining in the last 3 years probably doesn't own taste buds, or maybe Starbucks is just that awful. Kudos to Blue Bottle though. They're probably going to make a ton of money by being marginally (but still noticably) better than Starbucks.

astrange 13y ago
Do you have some of their coffee from 3 years ago to compare? Maybe you burned your tongue too much over the last few years, and that's why it tastes different.
- rubiquity 13y ago
  Three year old coffee wouldn't taste very good.

adamio 13y ago

I agree, its a coffee chain. It has to be hype and marketing. Does this coffee company have patents on a new roasting method that scales, or some breakthrough technique to save on logistics? It seems like it's only a play on perception and hype. From 2012 http://www.trueventures.com/2012/10/10/welcoming-blue-bottle-coffee/ http://www.trueventures.com/2012/10/10/welcoming-blue-bottle... "We’re also pleased to announce that Bryan Meehan, a good friend and an accomplished entrepreneur, has joined Blue Bottle full-time as Executive Chairman, contributing his significant expertise to all areas of strategy, marketing and operations. Bryan previously founded, grew and sold two premium specialty retail chains that share key similarities with Blue Bottle: 1) Fresh & Wild, an organic supermarket chain acquired by Whole Foods in 2004; and 2) Nude Skincare, a luxury natural skincare company acquired by LVMH in 2011."

bpodgursky 13y ago

I guess I just don't understand this mindset. I prefer food that tastes good, and don't really care whether 10 or 1,000,000 other people are able to enjoy it as well. Doesn't hurt me if they can reproduce it on a mass scale.

w1ntermute 13y ago
Yeah, this "not wanting to share" mindset of hipsters is probably the most repulsive thing about them to me.
BrainInAJar 13y ago
> Doesn't hurt me if they can reproduce it on a mass scale. But they can't, because we're talking about production lots that are on the order of a few hundred pounds of coffee, That doesn't scale far (a busy cafe will burn through 15lbs a day easily, plus wastage, retail bags, etc)
001sky 13y ago
I guess I just don't understand this mindset. Like "off the rack, bespoke", it's self-contradictory. There is no such thing as "factory scale, artisinal" food. The abuse of marketing buzzwords to mask inferior production is as old as fake-yellow-cheese.

angersock 13y ago

But in food and beverages, best of breed is never, can never, should never be at scale. But at scale it is far, far easier to guarantee quality and consistency of product, and to gain the experience needed to achieve best-of-breed products. Unless you are implying that the imperfections in the production process are part of the artisanality?

001sky 13y ago
"The adjective "artisanal" is sometimes used in describing hand-processing in what is usually viewed as an industrial process" By definition, artisinal production is distinguished by type. That doesn't mean all mass produced things are bad. It just means the marketing is hypocritical, in a bait-and-switch kind of way. Which, admittedly, is more of a problem for those who are over-invested emotionally in a brand or product. Using 'artisanal' as a "busienss strategy" was originally adopted to encourage such emotional investment. The fetishization of 'handmade', in part, related to its implied.natural scarcity. The latter makes it also hipster-fodder.

eps 13y ago

You got the whole coffee thing ass-backwards. It doesn't matter if it's "artisanal". What only matters is if it tastes good. But if it tastes good because it's artisanal, then it's certainly a problem. Though not with Blue Bottle, but you and your snobbery. How the f#ck getting great coffee in more places is "bad for all of us". Do you actually read what you type? > But in food and beverages, best of breed is never, can never, should never be at scale. Of course, it can! Just look at wines, look at cheeses, look a damn puy lentils. Look at caviar. You are just making shit up.

mwfunk 13y ago
I don't understand- wine is a perfect example of something that doesn't scale. The process of making wine is fundamentally very different for the typical mass-market grocery store wine than it is for a smaller winemaker. They have to put in all kinds of additives to make the output of high-volume wine production palatable, and the end result is something that may be perfectly drinkable but no one would consider best-of-breed wine. In extreme cases (like white zin), it's closer to artificially flavored and sweetened alcoholic grape juice than what a lot of people would even consider wine. That's not snobbery, that's just how it is. The process of producing really good wine is very inefficient by comparison, and part of the reason it can be so good is because it requires (for example) very specific grapes that don't even exist in large enough numbers to mass-produce that wine. I'm not even saying that mass market wine is bad. I've gladly drunk more than my share of dirt cheap wine over the years (and enjoyed it!) but I harbor no illusions that it's the best wine there is. I could totally see coffee as being a similar thing- you could scale it up and get a pretty decent mass-market approximation of the original, and it might even be pretty darned good, but it's not going to be the same as the original. It can be high-volume, best-of-breed, or reasonably priced- pick any two. I think that's all the original poster was saying. It's not snobbery, it's just the realities of that industry.

debt 13y ago

I can't stand this thing because it's coffee. It's like artisanal heroin. Coffee, in my mind, is meant to wake me up and get me going. It's purely a functional thing. A good cup of coffee is just a not bad cup of coffee. How did this complication about coffee happen? I see the same thing happening with headphones. People listening to Diplo on $1500 Sennheiser headphones; for why? What tones and notes are you trying to get out of that? The same question could almost be asked of coffee. The human tongue, I'm sure, can only process so many taste combinations. What are we trying to get out of coffee?

3minus1 13y ago
Some people just like the experience of drinking coffee: the hot liquid that slowly cools, the bitter taste, and of course the caffeine. I started trying to cut out caffeine and I actually still drink de-caf, and enjoy it.
calbear81 13y ago
That's like saying I can't stand people who make good cocktails because in my mind, alcohol is supposed to get me drunk. Some people just like coffee and the coffee we've had for such a long time in America has been either burnt, tasteless, or mixed with a bunch of flavors such that we've forgotten that a well brewed coffee doesn't need to taste bitter. We've also discovered that coffee acquires flavor not just from roasting but also from it's provenance (just like wine, the terroir matters) so now you can taste for coffees that have caramel notes, coffees that have bright cherry notes, etc. Another reason that I think it matters is that the difference between shitty coffee and good coffee is so clear. We're not talking about trying to discern a slight difference. I've been drinking lattes in the Midwest while traveling and they are the worst thing ever. It's like the heated water, milk, and a touch of coffee. A great latte (like at Ritual Coffee Roasters) retains the taste of coffee (espresso) with a creamy blend of frothed milk.

calbear81 13y ago

I think it is still uniquely artisanal if they continue to adhere to some principles around how fresh the beans need to be, roasting locally, sourcing ethically, and continuing to make coffee in a way that respects the craft. If they start shipping out bags of coffee nationwide from a central roasting plant and keep coffee in warming pots, then I would say they've gone from craft coffee brewer to just another coffee chain. ... and they make a mean New Orleans iced coffee.