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US bans students from “blacklisted” countries from getting access to Coursera
- sentenza 13y agoWhy doesn't the US pursue the blue-jeans approach do diplomacy any more? You know, give them blue-jeans, fast-food and rock'n roll, so they will become like us instead of hate us. I know this works, since it has been applied in my home country (Germany) to astonishing results. This incident als further highlights that we (speaking of Europeans now) need non-US based online services. Remember the last big Paypal scandal, when all online-retailers that sold Cuban rum had their accounts frozen? Yeah, won't be the last.
- lazyjones 13y ago> Why doesn't the US pursue the blue-jeans approach do diplomacy any more? Because good diplomacy won't help the military-industrial complex increase its revenue.
- pliny 13y agoOnly if you or a customer of yours are going to bomb them, otherwise you're better off being friends and selling them bombs.
- lazyjones 13y agoIdeally you'd do both at the same time (or one after the other). With good diplomacy, neither you, nor them, nor their enemies would buy more bombs.
- benched 13y agoCultural conquests were always the most satisfying to me in Civilization.
- masklinn 13y agoAnd the very reason why I so dislike Civ V: in Civ IV, you could use culture to literally take over the world, as your cultural influence could slowly convert other players's territories and cities to you. And the culture bomb was a magnificent thing. In Civ V, at best they like you, and worst (and more commonly) your cultural achievements will just make them hate you even more.
- thebooktocome 13y agoPartly fixed in BNW with Tourism/Ideology mechanics. Sadly unfixed by the ease with which one gets a diplomatic victory on anything less than Immortal.
- justwanttotalk 13y agoThe majority of Iran already likes us. The 5% of religious extremists control the govt. and oppress the people. They are the only ones who dont like us.
- sentenza 13y agoWhoever controls the public discourse gains in the long run. What do you think Iran would look like today if local information policies hadn't been counterbalanced by the internet for the last ten years? I distinctly remember The Daily Show sending somebody to Teheran to ask people in the street if they new the show and they found quite a bunch who said yes! So IMO you are right, but only as long as Iran is well-integrated in the internet. Guess which 5% of Iran realized this recently.
- lazyjones 13y agoDo you have a credible source for this? Because nowdays, even Germans consider the US a bigger threat than Iran.
- Moru 13y agoDo you have a credible source for this?
- oddx 13y agoHere [1], for germany [2], Table 6: Q8. Which country do you think is the greatest threat to peace in the world today? - United States 17% - Iran 16% 1. http://www.wingia.com/en/services/about_the_end_of_year_survey/global_results/7/33/ http://www.wingia.com/en/services/about_the_end_of_year_surv... 2. http://www.wingia.com/web/files/news/97/file/97.pdf http://www.wingia.com/web/files/news/97/file/97.pdf
- vacri 13y agoGive some context - Iran shares half of its borders with politically unstable countries, one of which has nuclear weapons. All of Germany's neighbours are extremely stable; they have better scope to look further afield for threats.
- x0054 13y agoRecently I made an argument to a buddy of mine that US should continue the drone program, but instead of bombs, drop on people chocolate bars in a shape of the American flag (weather permitting, in hotter climates we might have to opt for other patriotically shaped treats). It's cheeper, and probably far more effective at making people like (or at least hate less) the United States. This article is yet another example of idiotic foreign policy US has been pursuing lately.
- primitivesuave 13y agoOr we could drop little stuffed drone dolls, so kids could grow up with their very own pet drone and not be scared by them. Pretty soon the kids will have nothing but endearing things to say about their friends in the sky. "My pet drone watches over me as I sleep..."
- draugadrotten 13y ago>...kids could grow up with their very own pet drone and not be scared by them. Pretty soon the kids will have nothing but endearing things to say about their friends in the sky. Hey, they are not "stuffed" but apart from that this idea sounds pretty much like what they are doing right now in the US: Military drones are made as toys for children. http://www.amazon.com/Fresh-Metal-Tailwinds-Predator-Drone/dp/B001LGFHHI/?ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361056154&sr=8-1&keywords=Maisto+International+predator+model&&tag=gizmodoamzn-20&ascsubtag=[referrer|www.google.se[type|link[postId|5984797[asin|B001LGFHHI[authorId|5722017953025243831 http://www.amazon.com/Fresh-Metal-Tailwinds-Predator-Drone/d...
- michaelt 13y agoTo be fair, toys modelled on real military equipment, like tin soldiers and airfix models, have been around for at least a hundred years.
- thaumasiotes 13y agoMuch as the dolls that little girls play with predate the emergence of humanity (girl chimpanzees care for sticks as if they were babies), it seems safe to say that toys based on weapons have been around for tens of thousands of years at least.
- barry-cotter 13y agoI imagine if the US invaded Cuba, Syria, Iran and Cuba, wrote them new constitutions, had massive buy in from local supporters/collaborators, had large military bases in them almost 60 years later and had almost total access to the communications of all members of government and ministries that would work even better than blue jeans diplomacy.
- barrkel 13y agohad massive buy in from local supporters/collaborators Government control by foreign invaders is not conducive to massive buy-in from local supporters before "blue jeans diplomacy" has already worked. It's complete ahistorical fantasy to think otherwise.
- barry-cotter 13y agoI don't know man, it worked pretty well for the Romans and everywhere they speak Arabic now they didn't in the 600s A.D. Also, Communist Romania. The first five-ishyears of that were pretty relaxed because there were, for practical purposes, no Romanian Communists to be put in power;they needed to make some first. And Romania only fell because the Soviets did.
- sentenza 13y agoYou are missing the point (though I share your criticism of things as they are). No country in recent history has been so thorroughly defeated both in military terms and in ideology as Germany. It would have been _incredibly_ easy to dole out severe punishment on Germany after WW2 (let's say, massive economic reparations, a ban on heavy industry, exclusion from public office/certain professions for any past member of the NSDAP). Some things like that were on the table. Google Morgenthau plan. Had that happened, I can assure you that either, we'd have had another big war within Europe by now, or (West-)Germany would have drifted towards the Soviet Union, or both. Instead there was economic upswing and americanization. We became rich, we became fat, and we became disinterested in German nationalism and revenge (for injustices real and even moreso imagined). That is the success story.
- arethuza 13y ago
- dualogy 13y agoGerman citizen here.. we kinda "got lucky" the whole cold war thing started right out of the ashes after 45, otherwise Germany would probably have remained a barren wasteland or become merely a major agricultural Allied asset. Instead with the cold war emerging, both sides pushed many resources into propping up their respective "showcase" of their respective system. The official narrative was also along the lines of "tough vengeance didn't help us the last time (WW1) with regards to Germany so let's try something different and more fundamental this time", doubtlessly a common and widespread belief at the time too. Blue jeans and chewing gum only entered the picture after the war, after all, not during ;)
- aaronem 13y ago> [...] it has been applied in my home country (Germany) to astonishing results. Well, sure. Blue jeans, fast food, rock 'n roll, and two-thousand-pound bombs.
- c7b0rg 13y agoThe US regime never ceases to amaze me. Projection of power at all levels in the lives of ordinary people, from privacy to education. I'm completely dumbfounded that they consider themselves protectors of freedom, how such cognitive dissonance runs rampant within the US is beyond me.
- pliny 13y agoThe EU has a ban on trade with Syria since 2012[1]. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/syria/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/count...
- c7b0rg 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque What does it have to do with the matter at hand?
- pliny 13y agoIf someone is 'the protector of freedom' and if 'the protector of freedom' is someone that doesn't boycott Syria, then that leaves Japan, South Korea, Australia and countries who's government don't make decisions based upon enlightenment values.
- c7b0rg 13y ago>If someone is 'the protector of freedom' >'the protector of freedom' is someone that doesn't boycott Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Not my argument, what are you even arguing against? If I were you, I'd question myself why I create strawmen, am I interested in the truth, or am I guided by misplaced nationalism?
- acqq 13y agoFor EU, the amount of trade is reduced, it's not actually "banned." I also don't see that having an internet site with free access can be interpreted as "trade" in EU.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago"All students from Syria" Both in loyalist and insurgent areas? That's a Solomon solution, I have to admit.
- airnomad 13y agoI guess Coursera could publicly denounce this particular type of government policy and set up UK puppet company just to deliver courses to those countries.
- pjmlp 13y agoSuch attitudes only increase the hate from the affected countries towards US.
- jrockway 13y agoDidn't Bernstein v. US pretty much eliminate export restrictions on speech?
- EpicEng 13y agoCoursera is a for profit company. It has nothing to do with speech and everything to do with trade between is and embargoed countries. I'm not saying that I like it, I would like to see a safe harbor for educational institutions, but that's the way the law is written and these things don't change quickly
- yuhong 13y agoOT, but I have sent you an email with michaelochurch on the CC list about meeting Larry and Sergey. I hope I can add Piaw Na to the list too.
- Morcane 13y agoSo much for 'disrupting education'....
- Houshalter 13y agoDo other websites also have to block access to these countries? I've never heard of this before.
- ucho 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-source_software_hosting_facilities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-source_softw... SF and GoogleCode block was quite painful for OSS community.
- alimoeeny 13y agoYep lot's of google services, like app engine, also AWS and almost anything Sun/Oracel, (even for time, I dont know if it is still the case) you could not download mysql, or java updates from Iran,
- scottdw2 13y agoIs there any better way to change someone's mind, to change their fundamental mode of thought, to alter their perceptions and manner of reason than to educate them? Here's an even better question: if your enemy thinks like you, talks like you, acts like you, shares your values and views the world the way you do, is he your enemy? Can he be your enemy? Why would he be your enemy? Let's consider a central question.You espouse a belief in freedom, a nation built on liberty. Your enemy denies this, proclaims you a tyrant, and endeavors to make war against you. How do you respond? One method undercuts your enemy's message, reaffirms your core values, and has the potential to alter and modify your enemy so that he is predisposed to be united with you. The other affirms his message, strengths his position, and emboldens those who follow him. This leads to the last question: what is your objective? Is it victory, or something else? What better path to victory then to alter the mind of your enemy until he is incapable of fighting you? Our educational assets ought to therefore be shared. To sensor them in the name of security is foolish.
- true_religion 13y ago> if your enemy thinks like you, talks like you, acts like you, shares your values and views the world the way you do, is he your enemy? Can he be your enemy? Why would he be your enemy? Sure. Previous to the 20th century, most wars were fought over control over resources, land, and prestige.
- scottdw2 13y agoIn war, identity is a defined "negatively". That is, not by describing positive attributes to you, but by describing negative attributes to the enemy. "We are the opposite of x", hence we fight. If you neutralize the ability of the enemy to define you (because he is like you) he can't define himself, and so he cannot fight you. Thus, there is no enemy, and hence no war.
- true_religion 13y agoI can accept that, but at the point you've already gone to war... it is pretty easy to point at any difference between you and the other country, and say that your way is better. (e.g. First World liberal democracy U.S.A looks down upon 1st world liberal democracy U.K. because U.K. has socialized healthcare thus clearly is insane).
- Gonzih 13y agoThis isn't very nice thing to do... Deny education to people who don't have any power to do changes in their country. Let's keep them stupid, now they will know how to play with us. Great attitude.
- frankchn 13y agoDisclaimer: I work for Coursera as a Software Engineer. We have already lifted restrictions for Syrians as the OFAC (Office of Foreign Assets Control) has a general license for educational content (Syria General License No. 11A) issued. We are working with the State Department and OFAC for licenses or exemptions for the other affected countries and we hope to get the remaining blocks lifted soon. More info at http://blog.coursera.org/post/74891215298/update-on-course-accessibility-for-students-in-cuba http://blog.coursera.org/post/74891215298/update-on-course-a...
- k-mcgrady 13y agoGreat to hear you're working on fixing on this!
- sentenza 13y agoThis is good. I hope you manage to do the same for Iran, Cuba and so forth. Education is just too important, and there is a net gain for the US from giving out these opportunities. Somebody learning on a US-centric english-language site is likely to be an Americophile. Should you get nowhere regarding Cuba and Iran, it might not even be too bad to forward a link to this discussion to sympathetic people at the State Department. I think we have a nice tech-community oppiniometer and some interesting talking points here.
- 1337biz 13y agoI was wondering about the consequences of breaking the restrictions, e.g. how severe are the penalties? I would love to read that as a headline in a newspaper "US Gov. sues free education provider for educating people in x".
- riggins 13y agowikipedia's not the best source but from my limited experience this is in the right magnitude, with the key thing being $55k per violation. That can add up quickly depending on how its interpreted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_C... Criminal penalties for violating the embargo range up to ten years in prison, $1 million in corporate fines, and $250,000 in individual fines; civil penalties up to $55,000 per violation.
- V-2 13y agoRobert Fischer - and the US revoking his passport, officially because of him playing a chess match in Serbia thus breaking the embargo - comes to mind.
- tlarkworthy 13y agoI don't understand why people are surprised. There are loads of education topics that are off limits. You can't get a VISA if you are studying certain hot topics, particularly those that can be weaponized. Are people really arguing for Bashar al Assad's right to study molecular biology? Why would you educate the engineers of an enemy state on how to build smart weapons? Even if a 20 year old left leaning engineer doesn't want to hurt anybody now, who knows where a lucrative career path will direct them in 10 years time.
- vacri 13y agoMost Coursera courses are intro/first-year level, not exactly smart weapon material. Are people really arguing for Bashar al Assad's right to study molecular biology? Because all Syrians are just like him? You know, it tends to be the educated people who are more against war and destruction. The higher the level of education of the population, the less it wants to go to war.
- riggins 13y agoMy immediate assumption was this is not the US is trying to restrict education. I suspect this was triggered by Coursera accepting money. The US has laws against doing business with certain countries. When Coursera started offering signature track classes where they charged money they are now doing business with restricted regimes. I have been surprised that there is no discussion of your initial point, that there are very rational reasons why a state might want to control access to educational material. Sure maybe offering people will lead to greater humanity ... or maybe it will lead to terrorists who can build sophisticated drone bombs. I don't know but I'm surprised it not a more prominent issue.
- johnmaddox 13y agoBan Coursera and not Facebook because it gives information. This act provides moral support for the banned countries. They do not have to think twice.
- atmosx 13y agoCoursera could establish an Office in Europe and accept foreign students from there, if there is a interesting market. The whole e-learning thing, is interesting and seems to be kind of exploding. I'm not sure about the quality though
- lazyant 13y agoQuestions no American (elected) politician can answer honestly: - why is Cuba one of the four countries in the blacklist and not other totalitarian regimes like China etc? - why is Marijuana illegal for the most part and not alcohol? - have the Palestinians the right to defend themselves?
- tzs 13y agoThis seems rather overblown. There are a small list of countries for which the US has a pretty comprehensive ban on doing business in/with. For these countries, the rule is "no" unless there has been a specific exception made to allow some particular kind of business. There is a much larger list of countries for which there are partial bans covering specific items or services, at least without getting some kind of license. With these countries, the rule is "yes" unless you are dealing with a kind of business that has been specifically restricted. The article, and most of the comments here so far, make it sound like we are dealing with the second situation, and Coursera's type of business has been added to the restricted list. That does not seem to be the case. The countries involved are in the first group, where the default in the US is "do not do business with" unless there has been an exception made for your business. (By the way, that's also how it has been in the EU for most of these countries until fairly recently. I believe the EU has been transitioning them to the second group, where they will have a set of specific areas that are restricted). The US appears to actually be OK with offering MOOCs in these countries. There is already an exception in the first group for Syria that allows Coursera to offer courses there, and they have restored access. They are now working to get exceptions for the other countries, and from what they say on their blog it sounds like the State Department is going to be OK with this.
- sdaityari 13y agoHow can education be used as a weapon?
- puppetmaster3 13y agoCheck w/ a lawyer and create a partner ship of-shore.