6 ms·

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only

by thesz 13y ago

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene Those compounds are 1000 times more harmful than lead. They are making Kiev to be very bad for living quite fast. So, in short, protesters are stupid judging from several points of view.

IgorPartola 13y ago
Oh man. I cannot see how what you are saying makes sense. First, joining the EU and trading with the EU are different things. We are talking about a very low level of commitment here for what originally started these riots. Please tell us how reducing corruption and creating a trade agreement with the EU a bad thing for Ukraine? Second, what does burning tires have to do with anything about this political situation? What would you do if you living in Kiev right now? Reading more of these comments I am starting to think that most people who express this disdain are really just trolling for Russia.
- jedmeyers 13y ago
  The are not just trolling for Russia. LJ is really popular online platform for Putin's prpaganda, and a lot of people are getting paid for pro-Putin politic comments. Usually after third page the amount of such comments falls down considerably, probably they are being paid for with a lower rate.
  - thesz 13y ago
    I think you overestimate the power of Putin. I think that keeping the protest going is stupid thing in itself. Many think the same and this is what is going on.
- thesz 13y ago
  About your first point - I don't know. I have something to say about your second point, though. Protesters are dumb ruining the city by burning the tires, regardless of the political situation. I am not living in Kiev, I planned a visit to it soon, I don't anymore. I don't know what to do. I am just saying that burning tires and cars is bad and stupid. Protesters have earned disdain at least from me by doing that.
stdbrouw 13y ago
So you're saying let's not protest because of the smoke?
bluekeybox 13y ago
> They want Ukraine to join European union No. If you were more familiar with the situation, you would understand that EU is only being used as a token signal (not goal) of the direction the country should be heading in. What the protesters really want is for the current government to resign and not to sign a (undoubtedly corrupt) deal with Russia that would effectively infringe on Ukraine's economic and political sovereignty.
- abcd_f 13y ago
  The problem of course is that Ukraine has no economic sovereignty already. It is utterly dependent on Russian gas for its energy needs. Even if Yanukovich steps down, next leader will have the exact same problem - where to get gas to power the country and you can bet your last grivna that the price of gas will go ballistic if Ukraine is to do something, anything to jeopardize the security of Russian borders. For example, align themselves with the EU. They are in a check-mate :-|
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    To add to this, they're also dependant on Russia for trade. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/balance-of-trade The vast majority of trade Ukraine does is with Russia, so souring that relationship will spell economic doom for Ukraine. Unless the EU is willing to purchase more products from Ukraine than Russia while at the same time providing them with loans and cheap gas I don't see how a trade agreement with the EU is a good thing. It's not like Yushchenko was able to get anything beneficial from the EU, why does anyone think Yatsenyuk, Klitschko or Tyahnybok will do any better (assuming any of them could even get elected splitting the vote in the west)?
  - bluekeybox 13y ago
    Note that I said "economic and political". At present, Ukraine is mostly politically sovereign. The deal with Russia would make it much worse, especially on political front.
mantas 13y ago
FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia. Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are higher too :) Source: Born and living in Lithuania
- radicalbyte 13y ago
  I know a number of Belorussians, and they all want to move to the EU. They also regularly drive to Poland for shopping, because it's cheaper and more things are available there :)
  - mantas 13y ago
    Yep. Shuttle buses with Belorussian plates and "shopping in Lithuania" slogans is common sight there. Fun fact, Vilnius' IKEA is built next to a highway that goes to Belorussian border. Every 5th or so plate in the parking lot is BY.
  - gritzko 13y ago
    Hell yes! Folks from Saint Petersburg shop in Finland. They even order parcels to Finnish addresses next to the border because Russian mail sucks badly. Once I was crossing from Finland to SPb and I was questioned by customs on whether I've bought my stuff in Finland. Apparently, everybody's doing that and they are trying to tax it. Goods are unreasonably expensive in Russia. I was living in Netherlands which is not particularly cheap but Russian prices for the same stuff are 2x NL price normally. Incomes are lower and inequality is hellish. TLDR: cleptocracy sucks.
    - thesz 13y ago
      The Russian mail "sucks" because there was a sudden horrifying jump in mail packages volume. Russian Postal Service wasn't prepared to that. It is doing progressively better as time goes. If you want to talk about cleptocracy, let's talk about US a little bit. Let's start from yellow light duration scandals (from the top of my head): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_...
audriusko 13y ago
Please elaborate on this: "conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics". I am from a former Baltic USSR republic and I have no idea how you came up with your, as you might say, stupid conclusion. It is just plain not true.
- dmytrish 13y ago
  thesz is from Moscow, it's how it looks from there.
  - JanezStupar 13y ago
    Wonders of propaganda.
  - thesz 13y ago
    It should look to you too. Try to investigate. Look no further than to Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/12/26/bulgarias-travails-should-be-a-sobering-reminder-to-ukrainians-the-eu-doesnt-fix-everything/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/12/26/bulgaria... The power of propaganda, you say?
emilis_info 13y ago
I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia). I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes. We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start. Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the remote places of my country, you usually see a EU sign next to it. Legally: there are always discussions about EU legislation, but a lot of it makes our lives better. Most recent example: smoked meat products will be allowed to be produced only with smoke, not chemicals. Culturally: I used to be living in a land of grumpy cats interested only in themselves. To some extent it still is that way (see http://imgur.com/z5rYv http://imgur.com/z5rYv). However the open borders policy has a big ongoing effect: most of the people have seen (or seen the effects on their friends) how people behave and communicate in the Western Europe. Majority of people have got more friendly, polite and positive about the future.
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  Citizen of a neighbour of "former Baltic USSR republic" here. We also gained so much from EU membership that it's hard to describe in full. But it's also hard to notice how every single piece of existing infrastructure was improved with EU money, and many new things were built - roads, transportation, as well as playgrounds and football fields. Yes, we have a lot of complainers here, but they mostly blame EU for either what particular neighbour countries did to us before we were even a member state, or they blame EU for whatever anti-EU crap some British newspapers produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislations like the one with juices or water, the news spreads and people here believe it. Seen this many times). TL;DR: this side of the world, joining EU is a Good Thing for the people. EDIT: a reply made me realize that I'm not sure if it was The Guardian or another British paper that spins anti-EU nonsense, so I removed the name.
  - SEMW 13y ago
    > whatever anti-EU crap The Guardian produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislation... The point is a good one, but you may be confusing the Guardian with e.g. the Daily Mail or the Telegraph, both right-wing anti-EU papers. The Guardian is centre-left, and neutral/pro-EU.
dmytrish 13y ago
Do you want to assert that Bulgaria, Slovakia would be better in Russian sphere of influence? Do you suggest that benzopirenes are more harmful than a lot of tear gas being used against protesters? Kiev is living its own life, re-read the Zyalt's post if you haven't read this yet. Protesters are stupid? Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique?
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  > Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique? Reminds me of one country that tends to drone strike everything that they can't spy on.
  - dmytrish 13y ago
    The difference is that Yanukovych is the president of _my_ country.
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      I didn't mean to poke at your country, but at the other one.
      - JanezStupar 13y ago
        And he meant to say that the other country looks like heaven from his perspective. People you call poor and downtrodden are pretty well of by Eastern European standards.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    You should get your news about the U.S. from somewhere other than hn, /r/politics or RT.
gaius 13y ago
They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case I am as euroskeptic as the next man, but the EU is 100x better for everyone than the USSR was.

by thesz 13y ago

IgorPartola 13y ago

Oh man. I cannot see how what you are saying makes sense. First, joining the EU and trading with the EU are different things. We are talking about a very low level of commitment here for what originally started these riots. Please tell us how reducing corruption and creating a trade agreement with the EU a bad thing for Ukraine? Second, what does burning tires have to do with anything about this political situation? What would you do if you living in Kiev right now? Reading more of these comments I am starting to think that most people who express this disdain are really just trolling for Russia.

jedmeyers 13y ago
The are not just trolling for Russia. LJ is really popular online platform for Putin's prpaganda, and a lot of people are getting paid for pro-Putin politic comments. Usually after third page the amount of such comments falls down considerably, probably they are being paid for with a lower rate.
- thesz 13y ago
  I think you overestimate the power of Putin. I think that keeping the protest going is stupid thing in itself. Many think the same and this is what is going on.
thesz 13y ago
About your first point - I don't know. I have something to say about your second point, though. Protesters are dumb ruining the city by burning the tires, regardless of the political situation. I am not living in Kiev, I planned a visit to it soon, I don't anymore. I don't know what to do. I am just saying that burning tires and cars is bad and stupid. Protesters have earned disdain at least from me by doing that.

stdbrouw 13y ago

So you're saying let's not protest because of the smoke?

bluekeybox 13y ago

> They want Ukraine to join European union No. If you were more familiar with the situation, you would understand that EU is only being used as a token signal (not goal) of the direction the country should be heading in. What the protesters really want is for the current government to resign and not to sign a (undoubtedly corrupt) deal with Russia that would effectively infringe on Ukraine's economic and political sovereignty.

abcd_f 13y ago
The problem of course is that Ukraine has no economic sovereignty already. It is utterly dependent on Russian gas for its energy needs. Even if Yanukovich steps down, next leader will have the exact same problem - where to get gas to power the country and you can bet your last grivna that the price of gas will go ballistic if Ukraine is to do something, anything to jeopardize the security of Russian borders. For example, align themselves with the EU. They are in a check-mate :-|
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  To add to this, they're also dependant on Russia for trade. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/balance-of-trade The vast majority of trade Ukraine does is with Russia, so souring that relationship will spell economic doom for Ukraine. Unless the EU is willing to purchase more products from Ukraine than Russia while at the same time providing them with loans and cheap gas I don't see how a trade agreement with the EU is a good thing. It's not like Yushchenko was able to get anything beneficial from the EU, why does anyone think Yatsenyuk, Klitschko or Tyahnybok will do any better (assuming any of them could even get elected splitting the vote in the west)?
- bluekeybox 13y ago
  Note that I said "economic and political". At present, Ukraine is mostly politically sovereign. The deal with Russia would make it much worse, especially on political front.

mantas 13y ago

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia. Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are higher too :) Source: Born and living in Lithuania

radicalbyte 13y ago
I know a number of Belorussians, and they all want to move to the EU. They also regularly drive to Poland for shopping, because it's cheaper and more things are available there :)
- mantas 13y ago
  Yep. Shuttle buses with Belorussian plates and "shopping in Lithuania" slogans is common sight there. Fun fact, Vilnius' IKEA is built next to a highway that goes to Belorussian border. Every 5th or so plate in the parking lot is BY.
- gritzko 13y ago
  Hell yes! Folks from Saint Petersburg shop in Finland. They even order parcels to Finnish addresses next to the border because Russian mail sucks badly. Once I was crossing from Finland to SPb and I was questioned by customs on whether I've bought my stuff in Finland. Apparently, everybody's doing that and they are trying to tax it. Goods are unreasonably expensive in Russia. I was living in Netherlands which is not particularly cheap but Russian prices for the same stuff are 2x NL price normally. Incomes are lower and inequality is hellish. TLDR: cleptocracy sucks.
  - thesz 13y ago
    The Russian mail "sucks" because there was a sudden horrifying jump in mail packages volume. Russian Postal Service wasn't prepared to that. It is doing progressively better as time goes. If you want to talk about cleptocracy, let's talk about US a little bit. Let's start from yellow light duration scandals (from the top of my head): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_...

audriusko 13y ago

Please elaborate on this: "conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics". I am from a former Baltic USSR republic and I have no idea how you came up with your, as you might say, stupid conclusion. It is just plain not true.

dmytrish 13y ago
thesz is from Moscow, it's how it looks from there.
- JanezStupar 13y ago
  Wonders of propaganda.
- thesz 13y ago
  It should look to you too. Try to investigate. Look no further than to Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/12/26/bulgarias-travails-should-be-a-sobering-reminder-to-ukrainians-the-eu-doesnt-fix-everything/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/12/26/bulgaria... The power of propaganda, you say?

emilis_info 13y ago

I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia). I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes. We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start. Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the remote places of my country, you usually see a EU sign next to it. Legally: there are always discussions about EU legislation, but a lot of it makes our lives better. Most recent example: smoked meat products will be allowed to be produced only with smoke, not chemicals. Culturally: I used to be living in a land of grumpy cats interested only in themselves. To some extent it still is that way (see http://imgur.com/z5rYv http://imgur.com/z5rYv). However the open borders policy has a big ongoing effect: most of the people have seen (or seen the effects on their friends) how people behave and communicate in the Western Europe. Majority of people have got more friendly, polite and positive about the future.

TeMPOraL 13y ago
Citizen of a neighbour of "former Baltic USSR republic" here. We also gained so much from EU membership that it's hard to describe in full. But it's also hard to notice how every single piece of existing infrastructure was improved with EU money, and many new things were built - roads, transportation, as well as playgrounds and football fields. Yes, we have a lot of complainers here, but they mostly blame EU for either what particular neighbour countries did to us before we were even a member state, or they blame EU for whatever anti-EU crap some British newspapers produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislations like the one with juices or water, the news spreads and people here believe it. Seen this many times). TL;DR: this side of the world, joining EU is a Good Thing for the people. EDIT: a reply made me realize that I'm not sure if it was The Guardian or another British paper that spins anti-EU nonsense, so I removed the name.
- SEMW 13y ago
  > whatever anti-EU crap The Guardian produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislation... The point is a good one, but you may be confusing the Guardian with e.g. the Daily Mail or the Telegraph, both right-wing anti-EU papers. The Guardian is centre-left, and neutral/pro-EU.

dmytrish 13y ago

Do you want to assert that Bulgaria, Slovakia would be better in Russian sphere of influence? Do you suggest that benzopirenes are more harmful than a lot of tear gas being used against protesters? Kiev is living its own life, re-read the Zyalt's post if you haven't read this yet. Protesters are stupid? Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique?

TeMPOraL 13y ago
> Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique? Reminds me of one country that tends to drone strike everything that they can't spy on.
- dmytrish 13y ago
  The difference is that Yanukovych is the president of _my_ country.
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    I didn't mean to poke at your country, but at the other one.
    - JanezStupar 13y ago
      And he meant to say that the other country looks like heaven from his perspective. People you call poor and downtrodden are pretty well of by Eastern European standards.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  You should get your news about the U.S. from somewhere other than hn, /r/politics or RT.

gaius 13y ago

They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case I am as euroskeptic as the next man, but the EU is 100x better for everyone than the USSR was.