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Another offended man checking in. Why is it so hard to accept that sexist language and actions are offensive to men? I suspect that most people would agree tha
by glesica 13y ago
Another offended man checking in. Why is it so hard to accept that sexist language and actions are offensive to men?
I suspect that most people would agree that white people can be offended by the use of terms like "nigger", or jokes about slavery. So then why can't men be offended by misogynistic language or jokes that are likely to create a hostile environment for women?
I clicked, I saw the name and was a little turned off but thought maybe it was just a clever shortening of a reasonable word I hadn't thought of (the way "man" is short for "manual").
Then I saw the "girls are bros too" thing and I realized that nope, the authors are just insensitive at best, jackasses at worst. They saw the complaints coming, but they thought it was more important to make some sort of off-color joke than to have their product taken seriously as the useful tool it could be.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- mumbi 13y agofor a man to be offended by this FOR the sake of women, you must be one pussy whipped mofo. let the down votes commence.
- DanBC 13y agoYour post still being +ve is proof that voting on HN is totally broken.
- mumbi 13y agohit a little too close to home?
- glesica 13y agoSo because I find words and actions that might belittle another person offensive, there's something wrong with me? What would you call me if I objected to a racist joke? Would you claim that I was somehow "whipped" by the targeted minority group? Considering the feelings of others is not a defect, it's part of our humanity.
- mumbi 13y agousing the word 'bro' doesn't belittle anybody. and if you objected to a racist joke, I would think you're a bitch but probably would politely ask you to leave my circle of friends.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- mkr-hn 13y agoIt looks like a lot of people only know the word "bro" through the brogrammer thing.
- jabelk 13y agoBro is exclusionary to women because it is a word for a man or boy. So associating guys (and exclusively guys) with the name bro in this way is a small sign to women that they don't belong. I am sure this seems inconsequential to you, and taken by itself, it is. But as a woman, seeing literally (first definition) dozens of these signs every single day on everything related to technology, it adds up. You, personally, only notice when something might be exclusionary when someone else brings it up on a site like this. But if you are sensitive to the signs (ie are either a woman or looking really closely) they can be overwhelmingly negative.
- ElComradio 13y agoGood. Stay home. Higher salaries for everyone else.
- Crake 13y agoIncluding the women who aren't crazy over sensitive outrage promoters. Shocker, there are women in tech who don't shit their pants every time they see the word "bro." I think the feminists will intentionally never manage to notice this, though.
- raganwald 13y agoI believe that Hacker News is worse off when it includes comments like yours. I don't know or care who you're talking to, the tone of what you're saying drags a good forum down past Reddit and into talk radio call-in territory. And even without the tone, the premise is puerile and an insult to good faith discussions. Sometimes, a thing just stinks. It doesn't matter which way the wind blows the stink, it stinks. Your comment stinks.
- nacs 13y ago> Another offended man checking in. And yet you typed out a racist, highly offensive word (far more offensive than "bro" I'm pretty sure) in your own 2nd paragraph.
- glesica 13y agoAre you joking? Seriously, I recently confused a sarcastic comment for a serious one on HN, so I'm asking honestly. Because if you're serious, then I just don't know where to start. I'll keep it short. Using a term to facilitate a discussion of that term is completely and entirely different from using it in other ways. I assumed the intellectual maturity of this audience was higher than it would be on, say, Reddit. Perhaps I was wrong.
- nacs 13y agoNo I'm not joking. There are many more offended by the word you used than the word 'bro'. The discussion is not about race nor that word so it's not relevant. Next time you argue over such an intellectually deep matter such as whether the word 'bro' may be offensive or not, you may wish to be a bit more cautious about the use of such words.
- vacri 13y agoThe discussion is not about race nor that word so it's not relevant. The discussion was about offensive words; it's entirely relevant. And given the context it was used, it was clear the word was not used in a disparaging manner, but as an example of a word that shouldn't be used.
- glesica 13y agoI wasn't arguing about whether "bro" was offensive. I was arguing over whether it is legitimate for a man to be offended by sexism, please read the GP before responding next time.
- reallyseriously 13y ago
- overgard 13y agoIn what way is this sexist? There is not a single word of disparagement on that site. Nobody in their right mind would say that the word "bro" is sexist unless they're explicitly looking to be offended. (IE: picking a fight)
- mkdir 13y agoIt's offensive in the same way it's offensive for a young man to attend a computer science class. It increases the maleness of a space.
- glesica 13y agoIt is offensive because it has high potential to create a hostile environment for women. This isn't just me and a few people making shit up, read my comment, it's obvious that the authors knew they were on shaky ground. They tried to defuse the situation with a cute little comment, but it would have been better to just change the name. Read this comment for a better explanation if you're actually confused: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7121717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7121717
- Crake 13y ago>It is offensive because it has high potential to create a hostile environment for women. Are you kidding? Maybe if they named it bitchpages instead of bropages. Bro is used in many ways, one of which is as a term of endearment. Even if you take it in the brogrammer context, it's still a derogatory name for men, not women. TIL that insulting men is misogyny. I guess it's like how when men die in wars, the real victims are still the women safe at home.
- rds2000 13y agoWhat creates a hostile environment for woman is where a sector, made of predominately men is scrutinized with a hysterical "boy who cried wolf" mentality. It's a vicious cycle. 1. First there is a tiny group of feminists, mostly consisting of marketers, call themselves coders, but if you were look them up, they're twittering and having fun more than building. They seem very happy to stir indignation. 2. Then, people in positions of power bend toward the illegitimate trolls who cried wolf. I'm talking, the word "meritocracy" being offensive by github CEO [1], python board members referring to geekfeminism.org as a charter [2] for pycon conferences. Pack up and go home, these are the leaders, the chiefs, the alphas of engineers - and they are cowing down to politically correct trolls on twitter, who aren't even participants to the causes. Twitter and blogs allow anyone to claim to be anything. You used to need a degree to Marketer! Now any girl with an iPhone can be one! Twitter lets anyone call themselves a programmer. However, Github holds people accountable for actually having to program - funny how meritocracy came up as a bad word to these people! What is really creating a hostile work environment for woman? I can tell you, men who stay silent watching this bogus stuff happen, woman with legitimate skill and talent may be cast off as a liability. Consider this: if you are a woman, and you would let a bad joke ruin someone's life, or abuse politically correct sympathy as a female to get benefits - is that going to help your cause? If you are a leader or boss, and you let these trolls shape you - You lack backbone. I feel this is a lack of integrity, and they're not fit to lead. I hope leaders set an example and not feed these attention trolls and call their crap out. These are woman creating a hostile environment for woman who would otherwise feel grateful to earn their way and belong. [1]: https://twitter.com/defunkt/statuses/426104782894284800 https://twitter.com/defunkt/statuses/426104782894284800 [2]: http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct
- xauronx 13y agoHow is "girls are bros too" or the term "bro" an off-color joke or insensitive. Maybe it's just the culture that I come from, but while "bro" certainly can be used to refer to douche-bag college guys it was more often used as "hanging out with my bros" (equivalent to "hanging out with my best friends"), which certainly could be (and for us, it was) gender agnostic. I think equating "bro" to "nigger" is a huge effort to be offended. I opened the page after reading this comments and expected to see frat insignia, cleavage, etc.... Plain blue on white. Literally 200 comments on this page because they made a clever play on the term "manpages", something that any computer professional recognizes. Truly impressive work by those looking for something to be outraged about.
- Crake 13y agoI like the term "gender agnostic." Perhaps because I am a gender heretic, heh.
- codygman 13y agoThanks, I come to HN to see the N-word... you've made my day.
- romanovcode 13y agoAre you seriously putting words "bro" and "nigger" in same category? Do you miss some screws in your head?
- glesica 13y agoNope, that wasn't my point at all, and I was very clear about it. If you had read the GP, you'd know that the claim I was objecting to was that it is somehow invalid for men to object to sexism. I used racism as an example because it is somewhat less controversial, and I used an extreme example to make the point crystal clear.
- belorn 13y agoSuch comments has a high potential to create a hostile environment for discussion. You don't get to decide if people will interpret your post as you putting "bro" and "nigger" in same category. Now some will be offended and hurt.
- jtheory 13y agoEh, only those who don't read the actual comment. It didn't equate them.
- vectorpush 13y agoThat's an ironic response, some (not I) might say you're being a little insensitive to those who find that word unacceptable to use in any circumstance, though unreasonable it might seem to you, I mean, jeeze, you were only making an analogy was all! I read your comment and understand that you're not saying the two terms are equal, rather, you're trying to demonstrate that it is not unusual for someone outside of the persecuted group to be offended by words intended to offend members of the persecuted group. Yet, were I the type to take offense, I might find it quite offensive that you used what is widely considered the most offensive word in the English language to make a hyperbolic and inapt analogy. The word 'nigger' is a pejorative racial slur intended to wound when it is used, whereas the word 'bro' is commonly associated with friendship and brotherhood. And douchebag frat guys.
- theorique 13y agoI clicked, I saw the name and was a little turned off but thought maybe it was just a clever shortening of a reasonable word I hadn't thought of (the way "man" is short for "manual"). It's really just one of those clever little puns that Unix is known for. e.g. "more" is a paging utility ... "less" is an alternative one, even though it doesn't show you less of the file. "elm" is a mail reader, "pine" is a different mail reader, and they are both trees. "man" is short for manual. Man is also the word for a male human being. "Bro" is another, affectionate word to describe a male human being. Just another pun, not a dark scheme to alienate women from the programming world. And certainly not misogynistic language or jokes that are likely to create a hostile environment for women. There are some possible package names that would be sexist and anti-women. This isn't one of them.