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Nvidia marketing manager killed during train rescue attempt

206 points by htsh 13y ago

dctoedt 13y ago
With the greatest respect and sympathy for a guy who had to make a snap judgment in the moment, I have to question that judgment. He inflicted a terrible loss on his own wife and family -- and to what end? Original article in the Merc: http://www.mercurynews.com/twitter/ci_24989424/tech-worker-k.. http://www.mercurynews.com/twitter/ci_24989424/tech-worker-k....
- undoware 13y ago
  ...and yet, had he succeeded, we would be praising him. Google the 'moral luck' paradox, it applies here.
  - gpmcadam 13y ago
    Come on, it's HN. If he had succeeded, the top comments would still have been critical in some way ;) (And yes, I understand the irony of this comment!)
    - chrismorgan 13y ago
      No—if he had succeeded, it wouldn't have been news.
- belluchan 13y ago
  You're getting downvoted, but I agree that we shouldn't be praising this kind of behavior out of context. The guy was unquestionably brave, had good intentions, but probably terrible judgement.
- pragone 13y ago
  I find your comment fascinating purely because it's a concept that I've never been able to understand. While I can begin to understand what you're saying about the loss he inflicted on his wife and family, the life he could have saved far outweighs that loss; as I said, I couldn't live my life any other way. I often try to wrap my head around the concept of putting myself and my family before my fellow man, but it's one that just doesn't come to me easily.
  - gus_massa 13y ago
    For simplicity, let’s assume that you value all human equally. Then the question if not if he could have saved a life. The question is if (under similar circumstances) the probability of dying was less than the probability of saving the other person. I think it’s not reasonable to attempt a rescue with a 90% dying chance, knowing that there is only a 10% chance of success. On the other hand I think it’s reasonable to attempt a rescue with a 10% dying chance, knowing that there is a 90% chance of success. It’s very difficult to estimate the chances in this case, because we don’t know all the circumstances, the available information and the point of view. And it’s impossible to be sure how I would have reacted in the very short time that was available. And if you want a more complex model and don’t mind using made up numbers, I’d prefer to weight myself and my family members with 2 points, and give my daughter at least 5 points. Condolences to both families.
  - hueving 13y ago
    The life of the survivor is more important than his? How can you make that kind of judgment? A person responsible for providing for a family has just as much social value as an arbitrary man hanging out on some railroad tracks. To mindlessly kill yourself for any person is pointless, especially if that person is already suicidal. The burden of knowing someone died to save you is not something depressed people cope with well.
- doorhammer 13y ago
  I upvoted you. I completely respect what this guy did, and honestly, hope I'd do the same, but I don't think we should ever avoid rational discussion about whether or not something really is the best thing to do, or just what feels like the right thing to do. Of course, I don't think anyone here, parent included, would be so tactless as to bring this up with anyone closely connected to the situation during their time of loss, but I don't think it's good to shy away from asking difficult moral questions.
  - rdl 13y ago
    There is also a difference between doing nothing and doing things in a way which might be less effective than maximum effort but which would be safer for yourself. e.g. if I'm alone and unarmed, and I see someone stopped involuntarily by the side of the road and relatively safe, in a bad area, in a normal-to-sketchy car, etc., I will probably call the police to report it, rather than stopping myself. If I see an elderly person in a rich area in a non-threatening car with a flat tire, I'll possibly stop and offer to help, or at least put better flares or whatever behind his car and make sure he's ok for water/health while waiting. If I see an actual accident in realtime, or the aftermath of an obvious accident, with likely trauma to passengers, I'll almost always stop (unless police/paramedics are already there). Similarly, if someone was standing on the tracks with an approaching train, I'd verbally command him how to GTFO, and possibly belt/bag-as-rope, but particularly if it were an adult stranger who is potentially suicidal or otherwise unlikely to cooperate, I'd be instinctively reluctant to get in front of the train myself. Someone who accidentally fell would scare me less, but would also be more likely to be able to get out on his own or with assistance from the platform. But the time to make all these decisions is well in advance of the incident; what level of comfort you have with different kinds of threats, skills in dealing with things, etc. I'd probably be more comfortable with water rescues (since I actually trained for this as a dive master) than most people, but less comfortable dealing with crazy/mentally unstable people, and more comfortable with end-a-hostile-threat vs. prevent-self-harm.
- rdl 13y ago
  People make mistakes, and "in the heat of the moment" is exactly the time when people don't have time to rather all the facts and rationally evaluate them for likely outcomes. I've accepted what I thought at the time was a relatively low risk to myself to extricate someone, and it later turned out to have been vastly more dangerous than I'd thought originally. I made a quick assessment of the risks and my capabilities, was wrong, and got lucky. (I generally weight my own survival disproportionately highly vs. that of others, too, so I don't think I'm really reckless.) I judge people much more harshly for situations where they have a long time to reflect and choose not to. In this case, he probably either thought the train was slowing/stopping, and thus he'd have more time, or that he could extricate the person more quickly than he did. It might be the case that what he did had a high expected chance of success and he was just unlucky, or he had wrong information in the instants before, or overestimated his abilities, or underestimated the difficulty, or just had bad judgement; we probably won't know.
- lvs 13y ago
  You believe you're hiding behind some kind of moral high-ground by making reference to his wife and family, all while criticizing a man who gave his life for a stranger. What a sickening sentiment you've seen fit to express publicly. A society based on your moral code would be no better than anarchy. If someone sticks out their neck someday for you, risking it all, will you perhaps be capable of a humanist thought then?
  - ryanjshaw 13y ago
    Given the lack of details presented in the article the GP linked to, and the many scenarios I can think of which on the surface would have appeared "risky but not Darwin Award risky", I must conclude that either GP is psychic or is feeling insecure about knowing he'd never make the same decision in the presumed scenario that so many here are respecting, and is attempting to protect his self-esteem by asserting his perspective is the only rational perspective.
  - DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
    The first thing they teach you about rescuing drowning people is to make sure you don't drown too. How is this any different? It's entirely possible that he made an error in judgment, and made the whole situation worse because there are two people wounded (well, one dead, one wounded), while despite any attempt he made, there would have been at least one. I wouldn't want someone to try to save me if I were going to die either way, and they were going to die if they tried.
    - bdcravens 13y ago
      The first thing they teach you about rescuing drowning people is to make sure you don't drown too. Key difference is that this probably wasn't something he was _taught_. He was acting purely in the moment. I think was you take that first step you tend to throw out risk assessment. Once you've looked someone in the eye, made whatever thread of personal connection, to then walk away and choose to let them die is possibly worse than death to some.
      - 13y ago
- nate_meurer 13y ago
  Decisions that people make in the "rescuing someone from the tracks in front of a fast approaching train" scenario cannot, in my humble opinion, be productively analyzed in the context of our ordinary lives. The situation is simply too extraordinary, and I'm not even sure "judgment" in the normal sense is a term that can be usefully applied to many folks in this situation. Take all of your fears, drives, and insecurities, add your unreliable risk-assessing abilities (common to most humans) and an amount of adrenaline that many of us will never experience, and cram them into the space of seconds in the face of certain death, in front of an audience. I simply don't see the use of second-guessing a decision made under those circumstances. For example, it could well be that someone "freezes" in motion, unable to discontinue the effort, compelled by adrenaline and emotion and whatever else. I've experienced this myself in far less serious situations. Or it could be Mr. Scholz was in complete control of his faculties, and made a ordered, rational decision to keep up the effort at all costs. We'll never know. It's fun to think about what I might do, but I have no way to relate to the actions of someone else. It's just too complicated.
  - dctoedt 13y ago
    > Take all of your fears, drives, and insecurities, add your unreliable risk-assessing abilities (common to most humans) and an amount of adrenaline that many of us will never experience, and cram them into the space of seconds in the face of certain death, in front of an audience. I simply don't see the use of second-guessing a decision made under those circumstances. That's why you have to try to war-game these things in advance -- because in the heat of the moment you won't have time or capability to analyze them rationally. (It's the same reason why athletes and soldiers and sailors train incessantly, so that they can rely largely on trained pattern recognition, a.k.a. reflex.) ---- > It's fun to think about what I might do, but I have no way to relate to the actions of someone else. It's just too complicated. Um, OK.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - dctoedt 13y ago
    > Have you thought about that person's life? about his family? Yes I have -- and I've decided that for purposes of governing my conduct, in nearly all circumstances, my duty to my own family unquestionably takes priority over my duty to an adult stranger's family. EDIT: And so there's no confusion, I would expect the same if the roles were reversed -- if I were trapped on a railroad track with a train bearing down on me, I'd be really pissed if some other dad (or mom) were to put his own life at grave risk to try to save mine. Just because circumstances are about to inflict a loss on my family doesn't justify his risking the same for his.
- squintychino 13y ago
  I hope if I'm ever in trouble that you're not around. Because if you are, I'm as good as dead while you think about what the best judgement call is. This man acted bravely by trying to save this stranger, this fellow human being. Since no one else stepped up to help (or did I miss the part in the article where it talked about everyone trying to lend a helping hand?) he took it upon himself to do the decent HUMAN thing and try to help. It's easy to criticize and pick apart this man's actions and judgement from behind your keyboard and after the fact. This man did a brave thing that had bad consequences. Yes it's a sad loss for this family, but this man is a hero in my book. He died trying to help people, regardless of whether he knew them or not.
  - dctoedt 13y ago
    > Yes it's a sad loss for this family, but this man is a hero in my book. Out of curiosity, are you married? Do you have kids, or aging parents, or anyone else to whom you feel any sense of long-term duty? I'm not trying to be snarky, just to assess where you're coming from.
- mcphilip 13y ago
  I don't think it's possible to evaluate the mindset of the individual attempting the rescue from the side line. All rational thought may have fled his mind and he was acting on pure impulse. The only reason I speculate that might be the case was when I was held at gunpoint (long story), my mind immediately switched to a "detached observer" point of view. No fear or heroism, just observation of events.
- noonespecial 13y ago
  The man he tried to rescue had a family too. Sometimes you double down when you think the odds are in your favor. It's sad that turned out not to be the case this time.
  - silvertonia 13y ago
    Or it was the case, it was the perfectly right thing to do, and he just got unlucky.
- learningram 13y ago
  Reminds me of the kid in China that was run over by two trucks and no one cared http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue
wakaflaka 13y ago
A heroic and brave person no matter who he worked for. Rest well kind stranger.
- smoyer 13y ago
  Well-said ... Putting someone else's well-being above your own life is the mark of a true human. I hope if I was in that position, I'd have tried to help too.
  - huherto 13y ago
    Very difficult situation. Very hard to risk your life to save another. But how do you live your life knowing that you could have saved another life but you were not brave enough. Scares me just to think about being in that predicament.
  - danellis 13y ago
    A stranger's life? I hope he didn't have kids.
    - smoyer 13y ago
      I don't know if he had kids or not ... but I have four and still would rather that they considered their father a hero than "that guy who wouldn't do anything". I have good life insurance because there are plenty of instant ways to go.
      - gus_massa 13y ago
        Check that your insurance covers heroic deaths. I think that it’s important to try to help other people, but your safety is also important. For example it’s common that to rescue one person is drowning, more than one person attempts a rescue and all of then get drowned. You must learn how to proceed in those cases to be helpfull. A few years ago I did a first aid mini-course. It was mostly about CPR and how to act in case of fire and chemical splits. The guide emphasized that the security of the rescuers is important. For example that before entering a door, you must check that the door will not close and trap you inside the dangerous place. Or make sure that the place you enter don’t have toxic fumes. I can’t find a direct cite of this. But if you go to http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/chemical-emergency http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/chemical-emergency , press the “respond during” tab you get this recommendation (near the middle of the page): > If you find someone who appears to have been injured from chemical exposure, make sure you are not in danger before administering First Aid.
GuiA 13y ago
Those Caltrain accidents seem to happen all the frigging time [1]. I'm not sure much can be done about them, but every time I hear about one my heart sinks a little lower. Is there any obvious thing that I'm missing that could be done? [1]: 12 a year on average apparently: http://kalw.org/post/caltrain-engineer-talks-about-coping-track-deaths http://kalw.org/post/caltrain-engineer-talks-about-coping-tr...
- ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
  Most Caltrain deaths are suicides, and its hard to stop people who stand on a platform, waiting for a Baby Bullet to pass through. That's the reality of having stations skipped.
  - pbsurf 13y ago
    And it's not just at stations. Four high school students committed suicide at the same crossing in Palo Alto in 2009, so a security guard was hired to patrol it [1]. There is still a guard there today. [1] http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13912677 http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13912677
- stickydink 13y ago
  I notice in the BART stations, there's sort of a lip on the platform edge that (if you have time) you can tuck yourself into so you avoid being hit. Do the Caltrain stations not have this? Of course, it assumes that the chap who was on the tracks initially, was there by accident.
  - kposehn 13y ago
    Caltrain stations have low platforms instead of the raised ones Bart uses, removing the ability to have a "suicide nook" (railroad slang)
- jakobe 13y ago
  Most subway stations in Singapore have walls with doors between the train and the platform. The doors open only after the train arrived and stopped. (It's similar to elevator doors.) Makes it impossible to fall or jump on the tracks.
n1ghtmare_ 13y ago
A brave man. RIP.
rdl 13y ago
A huge loss -- he sounds like he was a great person, and dying in an attempt to save a stranger's life is testimony to that.
throwwit 13y ago
RIP
betawolf33 13y ago
Talk about a daring public outreach initiative.
zaroth 13y ago
Terrible tragedy for this man's family and friends. I wonder if I ever find myself on the platform hearing screams for help coming from down in the tracks... is it reasonable advice to just scream back at the person to lie down between the tracks -- what's the clearance? Apparently sometimes enough, but not always, says Gawker/Reddit. [1] The 'best advice' is run like hell to the far end of the platform, and there should be a ladder there. [1] - http://gawker.com/5965694/what-to-do-if-you-fall-onto-the-subway-tracks-run-away-seriously http://gawker.com/5965694/what-to-do-if-you-fall-onto-the-su...
- hueving 13y ago
  With Caltrain, you just step off the other side of the tracks so you're standing between the two sets of tracks. The only reason people are killed is either because they intended to be killed or because they are incapacitated.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  From what I've read, they usually build a gap under the platform--enough clearance to hide under if you get stuck down there.
kposehn 13y ago
Something that I realized is overlooked in this thread is the other-other victim: the Caltrain engineer. Railroad crews that hit people and/or vehicles can get extremely bad PTSD and it can have a massive impact on them. My best wishes go to the crewmember who is likely dealing with a very trying time.
- Crito 13y ago
  I read somewhere once that the suggested procedure for train engineers who are about to hit somebody is to sound the horn and activate the brakes, then cover their ears, close their eyes, and scream so that they do not hear the noise. I'm not sure if that is true, but it really ingrained in me a sense of how horrible it must be to be so powerless in that sort of situation.
  - shangxiao 13y ago
    Even if it isn't the procedure, it sounds like great advice
- venus 13y ago
  An ex of mine's uncle worked for 40 years as a track engineer for a railway company in Tokyo. There, the trains cannot be stopped for any longer than absolutely necessary, and the engineers were/are frequently called out to inspect and help clean up the track, with a claw-type pick-up tool and a bucket. Hit at 100kph and go under the wheels - it can be very messy. And I'm not talking once or twice here, it happened several times a year. It's possibly even worse being the driver, but it always struck me what an utterly horrific job that must be and wondering what stress-related illnesses it would produce in the affected employees. edit: I should clarify that any large body parts are collected by the police or medical personnel. The engineer's job is to certify the integrity of the track and clear it of foreign matter, washing it down too if necessary.
  - sspiff 13y ago
    The uncle of my girlfriend is a train driver (not in Japan, but in Belgium), and he's had several of these incidents happen during his career. Here, walking under a train is one of the more popular methods of committing suicide. It's a very tough situation, because trains don't stop on demand. Last week, a friend-of-a-friend killed himself by walking into a slow-driving train. Imagine being the driver of a train with a 20-year-old kid walking towards your cabin and being unable to stop the train in time.
vladtaltos 13y ago
Rip
Sami_Lehtinen 13y ago
Things can be done very differently. Here's how they deal with trains in one place. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wlm0BNKpJeA/UuOjk8UOduI/AAAAAAAAU-8/--TV2bcyOYY/w346-h259/2014%2B-%2B1 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wlm0BNKpJeA/UuOjk8UOduI/A... Seems to be working well.
HarryHirsch 13y ago
No one has compared "man-on-the-tracks" to confined space rescue yet. Before you attempt it you must protect yourself or you risk creating more victims or fatalities. Chemists know all about it because of the risk of poisonous gas. If I saw someone collapsed in front of their fume hood not knowing what was going on I wouldn't even try to pull the fellow out without breathing gear, even if it was a friend or colleague. This is left to trained personnel, that is the fire brigade. There was this incident about twenty years ago at my old university where they dispensed liquid nitrogen in a basement that had no oxygen sensor (!). The ventilation had failed, and a student who came to fill up his dewar fell unconcious for lack of oxygen and couldn't turn off the tap. A second student tried to pull him out and became unconscious as well. It took number three to pull out numbers 1 and 2. Result: one dead, one disabled. There is bravery, and there is insane heroics. Pulling a fellow bent on suicide off a train track is the second kind. It takes discipline not to do it.

206 points by htsh 13y ago

With the greatest respect and sympathy for a guy who had to make a snap judgment in the moment, I have to question that judgment. He inflicted a terrible loss on his own wife and family -- and to what end? Original article in the Merc: http://www.mercurynews.com/twitter/ci_24989424/tech-worker-k.. http://www.mercurynews.com/twitter/ci_24989424/tech-worker-k....

undoware 13y ago
...and yet, had he succeeded, we would be praising him. Google the 'moral luck' paradox, it applies here.
- gpmcadam 13y ago
  Come on, it's HN. If he had succeeded, the top comments would still have been critical in some way ;) (And yes, I understand the irony of this comment!)
  - chrismorgan 13y ago
    No—if he had succeeded, it wouldn't have been news.
belluchan 13y ago
You're getting downvoted, but I agree that we shouldn't be praising this kind of behavior out of context. The guy was unquestionably brave, had good intentions, but probably terrible judgement.
pragone 13y ago
I find your comment fascinating purely because it's a concept that I've never been able to understand. While I can begin to understand what you're saying about the loss he inflicted on his wife and family, the life he could have saved far outweighs that loss; as I said, I couldn't live my life any other way. I often try to wrap my head around the concept of putting myself and my family before my fellow man, but it's one that just doesn't come to me easily.
- gus_massa 13y ago
  For simplicity, let’s assume that you value all human equally. Then the question if not if he could have saved a life. The question is if (under similar circumstances) the probability of dying was less than the probability of saving the other person. I think it’s not reasonable to attempt a rescue with a 90% dying chance, knowing that there is only a 10% chance of success. On the other hand I think it’s reasonable to attempt a rescue with a 10% dying chance, knowing that there is a 90% chance of success. It’s very difficult to estimate the chances in this case, because we don’t know all the circumstances, the available information and the point of view. And it’s impossible to be sure how I would have reacted in the very short time that was available. And if you want a more complex model and don’t mind using made up numbers, I’d prefer to weight myself and my family members with 2 points, and give my daughter at least 5 points. Condolences to both families.
- hueving 13y ago
  The life of the survivor is more important than his? How can you make that kind of judgment? A person responsible for providing for a family has just as much social value as an arbitrary man hanging out on some railroad tracks. To mindlessly kill yourself for any person is pointless, especially if that person is already suicidal. The burden of knowing someone died to save you is not something depressed people cope with well.
doorhammer 13y ago
I upvoted you. I completely respect what this guy did, and honestly, hope I'd do the same, but I don't think we should ever avoid rational discussion about whether or not something really is the best thing to do, or just what feels like the right thing to do. Of course, I don't think anyone here, parent included, would be so tactless as to bring this up with anyone closely connected to the situation during their time of loss, but I don't think it's good to shy away from asking difficult moral questions.
- rdl 13y ago
  There is also a difference between doing nothing and doing things in a way which might be less effective than maximum effort but which would be safer for yourself. e.g. if I'm alone and unarmed, and I see someone stopped involuntarily by the side of the road and relatively safe, in a bad area, in a normal-to-sketchy car, etc., I will probably call the police to report it, rather than stopping myself. If I see an elderly person in a rich area in a non-threatening car with a flat tire, I'll possibly stop and offer to help, or at least put better flares or whatever behind his car and make sure he's ok for water/health while waiting. If I see an actual accident in realtime, or the aftermath of an obvious accident, with likely trauma to passengers, I'll almost always stop (unless police/paramedics are already there). Similarly, if someone was standing on the tracks with an approaching train, I'd verbally command him how to GTFO, and possibly belt/bag-as-rope, but particularly if it were an adult stranger who is potentially suicidal or otherwise unlikely to cooperate, I'd be instinctively reluctant to get in front of the train myself. Someone who accidentally fell would scare me less, but would also be more likely to be able to get out on his own or with assistance from the platform. But the time to make all these decisions is well in advance of the incident; what level of comfort you have with different kinds of threats, skills in dealing with things, etc. I'd probably be more comfortable with water rescues (since I actually trained for this as a dive master) than most people, but less comfortable dealing with crazy/mentally unstable people, and more comfortable with end-a-hostile-threat vs. prevent-self-harm.
rdl 13y ago
People make mistakes, and "in the heat of the moment" is exactly the time when people don't have time to rather all the facts and rationally evaluate them for likely outcomes. I've accepted what I thought at the time was a relatively low risk to myself to extricate someone, and it later turned out to have been vastly more dangerous than I'd thought originally. I made a quick assessment of the risks and my capabilities, was wrong, and got lucky. (I generally weight my own survival disproportionately highly vs. that of others, too, so I don't think I'm really reckless.) I judge people much more harshly for situations where they have a long time to reflect and choose not to. In this case, he probably either thought the train was slowing/stopping, and thus he'd have more time, or that he could extricate the person more quickly than he did. It might be the case that what he did had a high expected chance of success and he was just unlucky, or he had wrong information in the instants before, or overestimated his abilities, or underestimated the difficulty, or just had bad judgement; we probably won't know.
lvs 13y ago
You believe you're hiding behind some kind of moral high-ground by making reference to his wife and family, all while criticizing a man who gave his life for a stranger. What a sickening sentiment you've seen fit to express publicly. A society based on your moral code would be no better than anarchy. If someone sticks out their neck someday for you, risking it all, will you perhaps be capable of a humanist thought then?
- ryanjshaw 13y ago
  Given the lack of details presented in the article the GP linked to, and the many scenarios I can think of which on the surface would have appeared "risky but not Darwin Award risky", I must conclude that either GP is psychic or is feeling insecure about knowing he'd never make the same decision in the presumed scenario that so many here are respecting, and is attempting to protect his self-esteem by asserting his perspective is the only rational perspective.
- DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
  The first thing they teach you about rescuing drowning people is to make sure you don't drown too. How is this any different? It's entirely possible that he made an error in judgment, and made the whole situation worse because there are two people wounded (well, one dead, one wounded), while despite any attempt he made, there would have been at least one. I wouldn't want someone to try to save me if I were going to die either way, and they were going to die if they tried.
  - bdcravens 13y ago
    The first thing they teach you about rescuing drowning people is to make sure you don't drown too. Key difference is that this probably wasn't something he was _taught_. He was acting purely in the moment. I think was you take that first step you tend to throw out risk assessment. Once you've looked someone in the eye, made whatever thread of personal connection, to then walk away and choose to let them die is possibly worse than death to some.
    - 13y ago
nate_meurer 13y ago
Decisions that people make in the "rescuing someone from the tracks in front of a fast approaching train" scenario cannot, in my humble opinion, be productively analyzed in the context of our ordinary lives. The situation is simply too extraordinary, and I'm not even sure "judgment" in the normal sense is a term that can be usefully applied to many folks in this situation. Take all of your fears, drives, and insecurities, add your unreliable risk-assessing abilities (common to most humans) and an amount of adrenaline that many of us will never experience, and cram them into the space of seconds in the face of certain death, in front of an audience. I simply don't see the use of second-guessing a decision made under those circumstances. For example, it could well be that someone "freezes" in motion, unable to discontinue the effort, compelled by adrenaline and emotion and whatever else. I've experienced this myself in far less serious situations. Or it could be Mr. Scholz was in complete control of his faculties, and made a ordered, rational decision to keep up the effort at all costs. We'll never know. It's fun to think about what I might do, but I have no way to relate to the actions of someone else. It's just too complicated.
- dctoedt 13y ago
  > Take all of your fears, drives, and insecurities, add your unreliable risk-assessing abilities (common to most humans) and an amount of adrenaline that many of us will never experience, and cram them into the space of seconds in the face of certain death, in front of an audience. I simply don't see the use of second-guessing a decision made under those circumstances. That's why you have to try to war-game these things in advance -- because in the heat of the moment you won't have time or capability to analyze them rationally. (It's the same reason why athletes and soldiers and sailors train incessantly, so that they can rely largely on trained pattern recognition, a.k.a. reflex.) ---- > It's fun to think about what I might do, but I have no way to relate to the actions of someone else. It's just too complicated. Um, OK.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- dctoedt 13y ago
  > Have you thought about that person's life? about his family? Yes I have -- and I've decided that for purposes of governing my conduct, in nearly all circumstances, my duty to my own family unquestionably takes priority over my duty to an adult stranger's family. EDIT: And so there's no confusion, I would expect the same if the roles were reversed -- if I were trapped on a railroad track with a train bearing down on me, I'd be really pissed if some other dad (or mom) were to put his own life at grave risk to try to save mine. Just because circumstances are about to inflict a loss on my family doesn't justify his risking the same for his.
squintychino 13y ago
I hope if I'm ever in trouble that you're not around. Because if you are, I'm as good as dead while you think about what the best judgement call is. This man acted bravely by trying to save this stranger, this fellow human being. Since no one else stepped up to help (or did I miss the part in the article where it talked about everyone trying to lend a helping hand?) he took it upon himself to do the decent HUMAN thing and try to help. It's easy to criticize and pick apart this man's actions and judgement from behind your keyboard and after the fact. This man did a brave thing that had bad consequences. Yes it's a sad loss for this family, but this man is a hero in my book. He died trying to help people, regardless of whether he knew them or not.
- dctoedt 13y ago
  > Yes it's a sad loss for this family, but this man is a hero in my book. Out of curiosity, are you married? Do you have kids, or aging parents, or anyone else to whom you feel any sense of long-term duty? I'm not trying to be snarky, just to assess where you're coming from.
mcphilip 13y ago
I don't think it's possible to evaluate the mindset of the individual attempting the rescue from the side line. All rational thought may have fled his mind and he was acting on pure impulse. The only reason I speculate that might be the case was when I was held at gunpoint (long story), my mind immediately switched to a "detached observer" point of view. No fear or heroism, just observation of events.
noonespecial 13y ago
The man he tried to rescue had a family too. Sometimes you double down when you think the odds are in your favor. It's sad that turned out not to be the case this time.
- silvertonia 13y ago
  Or it was the case, it was the perfectly right thing to do, and he just got unlucky.
learningram 13y ago
Reminds me of the kid in China that was run over by two trucks and no one cared http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue

wakaflaka 13y ago

A heroic and brave person no matter who he worked for. Rest well kind stranger.

smoyer 13y ago
Well-said ... Putting someone else's well-being above your own life is the mark of a true human. I hope if I was in that position, I'd have tried to help too.
- huherto 13y ago
  Very difficult situation. Very hard to risk your life to save another. But how do you live your life knowing that you could have saved another life but you were not brave enough. Scares me just to think about being in that predicament.
- danellis 13y ago
  A stranger's life? I hope he didn't have kids.
  - smoyer 13y ago
    I don't know if he had kids or not ... but I have four and still would rather that they considered their father a hero than "that guy who wouldn't do anything". I have good life insurance because there are plenty of instant ways to go.
    - gus_massa 13y ago
      Check that your insurance covers heroic deaths. I think that it’s important to try to help other people, but your safety is also important. For example it’s common that to rescue one person is drowning, more than one person attempts a rescue and all of then get drowned. You must learn how to proceed in those cases to be helpfull. A few years ago I did a first aid mini-course. It was mostly about CPR and how to act in case of fire and chemical splits. The guide emphasized that the security of the rescuers is important. For example that before entering a door, you must check that the door will not close and trap you inside the dangerous place. Or make sure that the place you enter don’t have toxic fumes. I can’t find a direct cite of this. But if you go to http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/chemical-emergency http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/chemical-emergency , press the “respond during” tab you get this recommendation (near the middle of the page): > If you find someone who appears to have been injured from chemical exposure, make sure you are not in danger before administering First Aid.

GuiA 13y ago

Those Caltrain accidents seem to happen all the frigging time [1]. I'm not sure much can be done about them, but every time I hear about one my heart sinks a little lower. Is there any obvious thing that I'm missing that could be done? [1]: 12 a year on average apparently: http://kalw.org/post/caltrain-engineer-talks-about-coping-track-deaths http://kalw.org/post/caltrain-engineer-talks-about-coping-tr...

ZanyProgrammer 13y ago
Most Caltrain deaths are suicides, and its hard to stop people who stand on a platform, waiting for a Baby Bullet to pass through. That's the reality of having stations skipped.
- pbsurf 13y ago
  And it's not just at stations. Four high school students committed suicide at the same crossing in Palo Alto in 2009, so a security guard was hired to patrol it [1]. There is still a guard there today. [1] http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13912677 http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13912677
stickydink 13y ago
I notice in the BART stations, there's sort of a lip on the platform edge that (if you have time) you can tuck yourself into so you avoid being hit. Do the Caltrain stations not have this? Of course, it assumes that the chap who was on the tracks initially, was there by accident.
- kposehn 13y ago
  Caltrain stations have low platforms instead of the raised ones Bart uses, removing the ability to have a "suicide nook" (railroad slang)
jakobe 13y ago
Most subway stations in Singapore have walls with doors between the train and the platform. The doors open only after the train arrived and stopped. (It's similar to elevator doors.) Makes it impossible to fall or jump on the tracks.

n1ghtmare_ 13y ago

A brave man. RIP.

rdl 13y ago

A huge loss -- he sounds like he was a great person, and dying in an attempt to save a stranger's life is testimony to that.

throwwit 13y ago

RIP

betawolf33 13y ago

Talk about a daring public outreach initiative.

zaroth 13y ago

Terrible tragedy for this man's family and friends. I wonder if I ever find myself on the platform hearing screams for help coming from down in the tracks... is it reasonable advice to just scream back at the person to lie down between the tracks -- what's the clearance? Apparently sometimes enough, but not always, says Gawker/Reddit. [1] The 'best advice' is run like hell to the far end of the platform, and there should be a ladder there. [1] - http://gawker.com/5965694/what-to-do-if-you-fall-onto-the-subway-tracks-run-away-seriously http://gawker.com/5965694/what-to-do-if-you-fall-onto-the-su...

hueving 13y ago
With Caltrain, you just step off the other side of the tracks so you're standing between the two sets of tracks. The only reason people are killed is either because they intended to be killed or because they are incapacitated.
hackinthebochs 13y ago
From what I've read, they usually build a gap under the platform--enough clearance to hide under if you get stuck down there.

kposehn 13y ago

Something that I realized is overlooked in this thread is the other-other victim: the Caltrain engineer. Railroad crews that hit people and/or vehicles can get extremely bad PTSD and it can have a massive impact on them. My best wishes go to the crewmember who is likely dealing with a very trying time.

Crito 13y ago
I read somewhere once that the suggested procedure for train engineers who are about to hit somebody is to sound the horn and activate the brakes, then cover their ears, close their eyes, and scream so that they do not hear the noise. I'm not sure if that is true, but it really ingrained in me a sense of how horrible it must be to be so powerless in that sort of situation.
- shangxiao 13y ago
  Even if it isn't the procedure, it sounds like great advice
venus 13y ago
An ex of mine's uncle worked for 40 years as a track engineer for a railway company in Tokyo. There, the trains cannot be stopped for any longer than absolutely necessary, and the engineers were/are frequently called out to inspect and help clean up the track, with a claw-type pick-up tool and a bucket. Hit at 100kph and go under the wheels - it can be very messy. And I'm not talking once or twice here, it happened several times a year. It's possibly even worse being the driver, but it always struck me what an utterly horrific job that must be and wondering what stress-related illnesses it would produce in the affected employees. edit: I should clarify that any large body parts are collected by the police or medical personnel. The engineer's job is to certify the integrity of the track and clear it of foreign matter, washing it down too if necessary.
- sspiff 13y ago
  The uncle of my girlfriend is a train driver (not in Japan, but in Belgium), and he's had several of these incidents happen during his career. Here, walking under a train is one of the more popular methods of committing suicide. It's a very tough situation, because trains don't stop on demand. Last week, a friend-of-a-friend killed himself by walking into a slow-driving train. Imagine being the driver of a train with a 20-year-old kid walking towards your cabin and being unable to stop the train in time.

vladtaltos 13y ago

Rip

Sami_Lehtinen 13y ago

Things can be done very differently. Here's how they deal with trains in one place. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wlm0BNKpJeA/UuOjk8UOduI/AAAAAAAAU-8/--TV2bcyOYY/w346-h259/2014%2B-%2B1 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wlm0BNKpJeA/UuOjk8UOduI/A... Seems to be working well.

HarryHirsch 13y ago

No one has compared "man-on-the-tracks" to confined space rescue yet. Before you attempt it you must protect yourself or you risk creating more victims or fatalities. Chemists know all about it because of the risk of poisonous gas. If I saw someone collapsed in front of their fume hood not knowing what was going on I wouldn't even try to pull the fellow out without breathing gear, even if it was a friend or colleague. This is left to trained personnel, that is the fire brigade. There was this incident about twenty years ago at my old university where they dispensed liquid nitrogen in a basement that had no oxygen sensor (!). The ventilation had failed, and a student who came to fill up his dewar fell unconcious for lack of oxygen and couldn't turn off the tap. A second student tried to pull him out and became unconscious as well. It took number three to pull out numbers 1 and 2. Result: one dead, one disabled. There is bravery, and there is insane heroics. Pulling a fellow bent on suicide off a train track is the second kind. It takes discipline not to do it.