6 ms·

This observation isn't really a complaint about Yale or college in particular. Yale is not her parents, not her church, not the Connecticut Health Service, not

by judk 13y ago

This observation isn't really a complaint about Yale or college in particular. Yale is not her parents, not her church, not the Connecticut Health Service, not the National Health Service. What does Yale owe her any more than all the rest of us owe her?

girvo 13y ago
Yale is her community while she's there. That's why it matters.
rdtsc 13y ago
Schools used to be thought of as parent-substitutes of sorts in the past. In loco parentis was used to refer to this idea. Women would be subject to curfews for example and so on. The idea is really about what she expected her school to be -- a welcoming community that will help her grow or something of that sort (she took the marketing flyers literally). Was she naive to believe that? A lot of young people make that mistake. Some from affluent small town communities have not had to deal with large bureaucracies before. This is their first go at it.
- pdeuchler 13y ago
  In fact, may colleges make this a core tenant of their sales pitch... "We're a community here, you're not a number! Small class sizes! Professors get to know their students! The Dean gets breakfast in the dining hall with the freshman!" etc. etc.
- secstate 13y ago
  This here is the crux of the issue. Young, impressionable people believing what the school is selling. And you can argue till the end of the Earth about who's fault it is, but the reality is that the world is full of people who are in turns impressionable and opportunistic. I loved my alma mater, but I also never for one second believed that anyone outside of the few professors I was close to and still keep in touch with, actually cared about me as a person. The author's experience with mental health issues was a perfect shit storm of being cut down after taking their warm-fuzzy message hook-line-and-sinker, AND a broken health care system in general. I would also argue there are no easy answers. It's not my place to suggest reforms, but if you're admitting someone to a psych ward and you know that at least one time they slashed their thigh open with a pocket knife, how can you possibly take their word for it that they aren't going to use the drawstring on their pants, or the plastic cover of a notebook to try self harm again? It's a no-win situation, and those are the worst. The best case would probably be to abolish psych wards and give everyone one-on-one access to a counselor 24-7 so they can hang out and be 100% sure they're not in danger. But I'd also note the world has moved "forward" a lot in terms of stigmas and treatment of the mentally ill. Is their room to improve, hell yes. But to ignore the almost death-camp like environments of the homes for the feeble minded just a century ago, we're doing okay.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Removing ligatures is fine. Removing actual sharps is fine. I don't know the plastic binder, so maybe removing that is fine too. Making someone strip naked for a search is not fine. Giving an intimate search is also not fine. Threatening to restrain them to a bed is not fine. Keeping them in their room is not fine. Keeping them on a locked ward is not fine. Etc etc. If her account is accurate I am shocked by how bad her treatment was. I've attended many a&e units with someone with severe deliberate self harm (much worse than described in the article) and that person got much better treatment. Not just medical clinical treatment, but the humane stuff too.
pdeuchler 13y ago
I can't tell if this is a joke or not. You do realize that going to a school like Yale costs almost $60,000 a year, right?
- stephen 13y ago
  The $60k is for rendering an education, not providing psychiatric counseling and a safe environment for recovery. You probably charge your employer $60k (+/- whatever) for rendering services; are you now obligated to help your boss (or CEO/whoever) through an episode of bipolar? Schizophrenia? I mean, they gave you $60k, right?
  - superuser2 13y ago
    Most schools provide psychiatric counseling (and primary care, and immunizations, etc) as part of the medical services paid for by the student life fee.
  - seanhandley 13y ago
    My colleagues were very supportive during a bout of anxiety and depression I had in 2012. I couldn't sleep properly for 2 full weeks and was a complete mess. They let me take an unscheduled absence (paid) for a few days because in the long run I'm more useful and productive to the team if I have a chance to heal when I'm unwell. A psychological illness is as real as a physical one and just as damaging. I'd rather be in a society that cares as standard, rather than counts the dollar value.
  - auctiontheory 13y ago
    The $60k is for rendering an education, not providing psychiatric counseling and a safe environment for recovery. Have you looked at a catalog for Yale or any similar private school? They're not primarily selling education. Besides, the "education" is no different from what you'd get at a much less expensive, much less well-known school. You're paying for the "community" and the experience and the brand. Source: I paid for my own Yale degree.
    - 13y ago
chc 13y ago
The rest of us would also be dicks if we cut ties with her after learning she was going through a personal struggle.
- imsofuture 13y ago
  Personally, sure. Institutionally, not so much. I'm sympathetic, I just don't see what place Yale has in this.
  - chc 13y ago
    > Personally, sure. Institutionally, not so much. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. I'm not institutionally a dick? Is that even a meaningful sentence?
    - secstate 13y ago
      An institution does not have emotions, just like a corporation does not have morals. It's not capable of being an asshole or your best friend. That's what they meant. In order to call Yale a dick, you'd first have to personify it, but that's a literary trick and not reality.
      - nitrogen 13y ago
        The decisions of "Yale" the emotionless institution are made by people. I don't want to get involved in discussing this particular case, but I am very bothered by the common sentiment that groups of people should not be held to the same ethical, moral, emotional standards as the individuals within the group.
        secstate 13y ago
        I never said Yale shouldn't be held to such standards as individuals are. I merely pointed out that, as much as we'd like to believe, and our laws try to contain, organizations of people are by their nature amoral. You can wish Yale could be held to that standard, but it's the individuals that steer the org that need to held accountable. To cite another case, United Fruit enjoyed cheap land and labor in Guatemala. In the late 40's and early 50's, populist movements started springing up in the country until one day a land-reform minded president was democratically elected. Someone at UF called up some friends in the U.S. government who knew some folks, who organized an assassination of the president by the CIA. United Fruit is not evil. A vast majority of the people who made up the corporation were probably blissfully ignorant of what the group they were members of were doing. And it's unreasonable and irrational to expect corporations of a certain size to have "all the facts." Instead, a small cabal of individuals colluded to implement a policy that devastated a small Central American democracy for the rest of the 20th century. In the same way, Yale is amoral. It is not capable of making moral decisions the way individuals in leadership positions are. And American corporate law should reflect that. Instead we get bullshit like corporate campaign reform that allows individuals with an agenda to wield the power of the hundreds or thousands because there's a chance that the that individual's position will positively impact the corporate body.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
DanBC 13y ago
Yale has blatantly discriminated against someone with a mental health problem. There was no attempt to make reasonable accommodations, to make adjustments if possible to enable her to continue to stay. Swap mental illness for wheel chair use or deafness and you start to see why your position is so unreasonable.
- stephen 13y ago
  The "reasonable accommodation" for someone with suicidal/self-harmful thoughts and actions (active cutting) is sending them to a psych ward for treatment. Which they did. If a person in a wheel chair had their legs bleeding out, would it be discrimination to send them to the hospital for treatment? Or just the right thing to do? If anything, they were exactly the opposite of discriminatory, as post-treatment, they let her (now with the "mental history" label attached) back in, right?
  - DanBC 13y ago
    I don't know enough about this person to say whether it was the right thing or not, but in general suicidal thinking combined with self harm shouldn't be enough to deny someone access to University. Self harm is for some people a protective measure that prevents suicide. It's possible that a bit of supervision and temporary lighter workloads would have helped. I have been careful use use weasle words - "if her account is accurate" etc - because it's possible that the only option was for them to remove her temporarily and their weird system needs her to reapply. And I'm not sure if they get a pass on not discriminatory. Excluding people with current mental illness, but accepting people with a mental health problem in their history isn't really good enough in the 21st centuary. Again, I don't know what their policy is so I should not judge them, but what do they do with people who disclose hearing voices or psychotic episodes or bi-polar mania or eating disorder? (Anorexia is far more dangerous than self harm, even including the suicidal thinking).
    - rpiguy 13y ago
      "in general suicidal thinking combined with self harm shouldn't be enough to deny someone access to University" I would agree with you, but I sympathize with the University as well. In our litigious society, Yale could easily be sued by the parents of the suicide victim. Worse, once a school starts "treating" a student for mental health issues they by default assume some responsibility for that person. If the OP did eventually jump from the roof of Vanderbilt hall, people would be asking, "why didn't they send her home?" The university could have treated her with more compassion and respect, but their ultimate decision to remove her was probably their best course of action.
DanBC 13y ago
Here's what Yale themselves say about disability: (http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/resource-office-disabilities http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/resource-office-disabili...) > Often, the physical barrier is the easiest to remove - the attitudinal barriers are much more difficult. To create a university community, which is truly accessible to and inclusive of all persons, including people with disabilities requires the participation of each and every member of the community. Toward this goal, the Office serves as a resource and a catalyst for change by providing technical assistance, information, and disability awareness training to any member of the Yale community.
6d0debc071 13y ago
It's sort of like an implied contract, you can't pretend to care about people and then shaft them. Well, legally you often can, but it's a pretty shitty thing to do.

by judk 13y ago

girvo 13y ago

Yale is her community while she's there. That's why it matters.

rdtsc 13y ago

Schools used to be thought of as parent-substitutes of sorts in the past. In loco parentis was used to refer to this idea. Women would be subject to curfews for example and so on. The idea is really about what she expected her school to be -- a welcoming community that will help her grow or something of that sort (she took the marketing flyers literally). Was she naive to believe that? A lot of young people make that mistake. Some from affluent small town communities have not had to deal with large bureaucracies before. This is their first go at it.

pdeuchler 13y ago
In fact, may colleges make this a core tenant of their sales pitch... "We're a community here, you're not a number! Small class sizes! Professors get to know their students! The Dean gets breakfast in the dining hall with the freshman!" etc. etc.
secstate 13y ago
This here is the crux of the issue. Young, impressionable people believing what the school is selling. And you can argue till the end of the Earth about who's fault it is, but the reality is that the world is full of people who are in turns impressionable and opportunistic. I loved my alma mater, but I also never for one second believed that anyone outside of the few professors I was close to and still keep in touch with, actually cared about me as a person. The author's experience with mental health issues was a perfect shit storm of being cut down after taking their warm-fuzzy message hook-line-and-sinker, AND a broken health care system in general. I would also argue there are no easy answers. It's not my place to suggest reforms, but if you're admitting someone to a psych ward and you know that at least one time they slashed their thigh open with a pocket knife, how can you possibly take their word for it that they aren't going to use the drawstring on their pants, or the plastic cover of a notebook to try self harm again? It's a no-win situation, and those are the worst. The best case would probably be to abolish psych wards and give everyone one-on-one access to a counselor 24-7 so they can hang out and be 100% sure they're not in danger. But I'd also note the world has moved "forward" a lot in terms of stigmas and treatment of the mentally ill. Is their room to improve, hell yes. But to ignore the almost death-camp like environments of the homes for the feeble minded just a century ago, we're doing okay.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Removing ligatures is fine. Removing actual sharps is fine. I don't know the plastic binder, so maybe removing that is fine too. Making someone strip naked for a search is not fine. Giving an intimate search is also not fine. Threatening to restrain them to a bed is not fine. Keeping them in their room is not fine. Keeping them on a locked ward is not fine. Etc etc. If her account is accurate I am shocked by how bad her treatment was. I've attended many a&e units with someone with severe deliberate self harm (much worse than described in the article) and that person got much better treatment. Not just medical clinical treatment, but the humane stuff too.

pdeuchler 13y ago

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. You do realize that going to a school like Yale costs almost $60,000 a year, right?

stephen 13y ago
The $60k is for rendering an education, not providing psychiatric counseling and a safe environment for recovery. You probably charge your employer $60k (+/- whatever) for rendering services; are you now obligated to help your boss (or CEO/whoever) through an episode of bipolar? Schizophrenia? I mean, they gave you $60k, right?
- superuser2 13y ago
  Most schools provide psychiatric counseling (and primary care, and immunizations, etc) as part of the medical services paid for by the student life fee.
- seanhandley 13y ago
  My colleagues were very supportive during a bout of anxiety and depression I had in 2012. I couldn't sleep properly for 2 full weeks and was a complete mess. They let me take an unscheduled absence (paid) for a few days because in the long run I'm more useful and productive to the team if I have a chance to heal when I'm unwell. A psychological illness is as real as a physical one and just as damaging. I'd rather be in a society that cares as standard, rather than counts the dollar value.
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  The $60k is for rendering an education, not providing psychiatric counseling and a safe environment for recovery. Have you looked at a catalog for Yale or any similar private school? They're not primarily selling education. Besides, the "education" is no different from what you'd get at a much less expensive, much less well-known school. You're paying for the "community" and the experience and the brand. Source: I paid for my own Yale degree.
  - 13y ago

chc 13y ago

The rest of us would also be dicks if we cut ties with her after learning she was going through a personal struggle.

imsofuture 13y ago
Personally, sure. Institutionally, not so much. I'm sympathetic, I just don't see what place Yale has in this.
- chc 13y ago
  > Personally, sure. Institutionally, not so much. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. I'm not institutionally a dick? Is that even a meaningful sentence?
  - secstate 13y ago
    An institution does not have emotions, just like a corporation does not have morals. It's not capable of being an asshole or your best friend. That's what they meant. In order to call Yale a dick, you'd first have to personify it, but that's a literary trick and not reality.
    - nitrogen 13y ago
      The decisions of "Yale" the emotionless institution are made by people. I don't want to get involved in discussing this particular case, but I am very bothered by the common sentiment that groups of people should not be held to the same ethical, moral, emotional standards as the individuals within the group.
      - secstate 13y ago
        I never said Yale shouldn't be held to such standards as individuals are. I merely pointed out that, as much as we'd like to believe, and our laws try to contain, organizations of people are by their nature amoral. You can wish Yale could be held to that standard, but it's the individuals that steer the org that need to held accountable. To cite another case, United Fruit enjoyed cheap land and labor in Guatemala. In the late 40's and early 50's, populist movements started springing up in the country until one day a land-reform minded president was democratically elected. Someone at UF called up some friends in the U.S. government who knew some folks, who organized an assassination of the president by the CIA. United Fruit is not evil. A vast majority of the people who made up the corporation were probably blissfully ignorant of what the group they were members of were doing. And it's unreasonable and irrational to expect corporations of a certain size to have "all the facts." Instead, a small cabal of individuals colluded to implement a policy that devastated a small Central American democracy for the rest of the 20th century. In the same way, Yale is amoral. It is not capable of making moral decisions the way individuals in leadership positions are. And American corporate law should reflect that. Instead we get bullshit like corporate campaign reform that allows individuals with an agenda to wield the power of the hundreds or thousands because there's a chance that the that individual's position will positively impact the corporate body.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

DanBC 13y ago

Yale has blatantly discriminated against someone with a mental health problem. There was no attempt to make reasonable accommodations, to make adjustments if possible to enable her to continue to stay. Swap mental illness for wheel chair use or deafness and you start to see why your position is so unreasonable.

stephen 13y ago
The "reasonable accommodation" for someone with suicidal/self-harmful thoughts and actions (active cutting) is sending them to a psych ward for treatment. Which they did. If a person in a wheel chair had their legs bleeding out, would it be discrimination to send them to the hospital for treatment? Or just the right thing to do? If anything, they were exactly the opposite of discriminatory, as post-treatment, they let her (now with the "mental history" label attached) back in, right?
- DanBC 13y ago
  I don't know enough about this person to say whether it was the right thing or not, but in general suicidal thinking combined with self harm shouldn't be enough to deny someone access to University. Self harm is for some people a protective measure that prevents suicide. It's possible that a bit of supervision and temporary lighter workloads would have helped. I have been careful use use weasle words - "if her account is accurate" etc - because it's possible that the only option was for them to remove her temporarily and their weird system needs her to reapply. And I'm not sure if they get a pass on not discriminatory. Excluding people with current mental illness, but accepting people with a mental health problem in their history isn't really good enough in the 21st centuary. Again, I don't know what their policy is so I should not judge them, but what do they do with people who disclose hearing voices or psychotic episodes or bi-polar mania or eating disorder? (Anorexia is far more dangerous than self harm, even including the suicidal thinking).
  - rpiguy 13y ago
    "in general suicidal thinking combined with self harm shouldn't be enough to deny someone access to University" I would agree with you, but I sympathize with the University as well. In our litigious society, Yale could easily be sued by the parents of the suicide victim. Worse, once a school starts "treating" a student for mental health issues they by default assume some responsibility for that person. If the OP did eventually jump from the roof of Vanderbilt hall, people would be asking, "why didn't they send her home?" The university could have treated her with more compassion and respect, but their ultimate decision to remove her was probably their best course of action.

DanBC 13y ago

Here's what Yale themselves say about disability: (http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/resource-office-disabilities http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/resource-office-disabili...) > Often, the physical barrier is the easiest to remove - the attitudinal barriers are much more difficult. To create a university community, which is truly accessible to and inclusive of all persons, including people with disabilities requires the participation of each and every member of the community. Toward this goal, the Office serves as a resource and a catalyst for change by providing technical assistance, information, and disability awareness training to any member of the Yale community.

6d0debc071 13y ago

It's sort of like an implied contract, you can't pretend to care about people and then shaft them. Well, legally you often can, but it's a pretty shitty thing to do.