5 ms·

Earlier a HN front page post about a startup entrepreneur who's a woman, and now a post about entrepreneur who are French. Can't wait for the posts about entrep

by ozh 13y ago

Earlier a HN front page post about a startup entrepreneur who's a woman, and now a post about entrepreneur who are French. Can't wait for the posts about entrepreneurs who are blonde, or muslims, or wearing green shirts. Bottom line: I don't get why "I am xxxxx and I'm an entrepreneur" is relevant at all.

Gmo 13y ago
I think, for this particular exemple, this is due to the recent rise in French bashing in a lot of British and American medias. That included some nuggets such as “The best thinkers in France have left the country. What is now left is mediocrity.” So I guess, we, French, have decided to fight back all of this and prove them wrong. Granted, this article is about expatriates, so one could think it is proving the quote right, but I still think this goes in the general direction of fighting back the partiality of all those articles.
- liam_boogar 13y ago
  Great response, Gmo! Indeed, while it doesn't entirely combat the 'bashing' - some of the bashing is due, so we can't expect to entirely reject all criticism - it does put a stick in the bicycle wheel of the "France doesn't have a word for entrepreneur" banter.
  - vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
    Origin of Entrepreneur : French, from Old French, from entreprendre; to undertake. I guess the irony is lost on them.
    - aragot 13y ago
      Just a question: Doesn't "entrepreneur" totally sound French? I'm French so it's obvious to me, but I'm surprised you fetched a dictionnary to back you up. Do English speakers need to be scholar to guess it's a French word?
      - vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
        French as well, so I'm only backing my point with the dictionary definition ;) Given how weirdly they tend to pronounce french word and sometimes transform them -see rouge (but it's only fair since we do the same sometimes) I guess it doesn't hurt to reiterate it.
        philbarr 13y ago
        The "the French don't have a word for entrepreneur" is supposedly a quote from George Bush [1], and he's ridiculed for it because we all know "entrepreneur" is French. [1] http://www.snopes.com/quotes/bush.asp http://www.snopes.com/quotes/bush.asp
        vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
        That would explain a lot indeed. And don't take any offence with what's been said above, it's funny to see a word / idiom / expression being taken over by the english language, as much as the opposite; ie : The Hangover being translated Very Bad Trip.
        lmm 13y ago
        Does the phrase you're translating as "Very Bad Trip" have the same druggie double meaning in French?
        vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
        Kinda but it's mostly bad drug experience, whereas The Hangover encompass any substance (especially alcohol). It's an unimaginative 'translation', making it sound more fancy than the literal french equivalent ("La cuite").
        yardie 13y ago
        I didn't even know this quote came from anywhere in particular. I honestly believed it was poking fun at the French bureaucracies inability to grow small businesses due to taxes and social charges. Even a few years ago if you wanted to start a new business in a market that didn't exist yet you would be told it can't be done. For example, "Le Camion qui Fume" had to spend years to get the business license because the concept of the food truck didn't exist in France. Surprisingly, mobile epiceries, bakers, and butchers have existed for years so I don't know why mobile restaurants took so long.
- deleted 13y ago
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- deleted 13y ago
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liam_boogar 13y ago
I can't speak to the other posts, but as the author of this post, the intrigue for me is that the common thread, their country of Origin, makes a big statement about France's ability to educate and product entrepreneurs. There is also a subtle undertone (I chose not to dive into it in the article, as it's been discussed in depth elsewhere) about the fact that many of France's most successful citizens found their success outside of France, suggesting that, while the French system produces a consistent flow of intelligent entrepreneurs (a keystone of a healthy startup ecosystem), it fails to create an environment in which those entrepreneurs feel they can succeed.
- maigret 13y ago
  Right. And for me that is positive, because creating the economical environment is easier than improving greatly the education and fostering creativity and self thinking. Basically France needs to reduce taxes on employment, and provide for better ways for investment to happen. That seems doable.
- aragot 13y ago
  Let's dig (Granted: It's a kind of Godwin point for a French entrepreneur post): - 71% tax above 31k€ per year: VAT 20%, Revenue tax 15%, Taxe Pro/Education 1%, [health, retirement, elderly, unemployment and similar] social mandatory fees 46%, mandatory fees and tax agent 2200€, the total is around 71%. - Research incentives "CIR" can pay up to 90% of your PhD employees, - ACCRE, women incentives and some I'm-a-victim incentives can get you 10-80k€ loans that you don't have to reimburse in case of failure. It looks to me like we're selecting our best start-ups on how well they do at smuggling benefits. It also looks like we weigh on those who could grow. Make your calculation: Without 71% of tax, how many people do our competitors hire? Last thing, there is a heavy hate for "those who make money" in France. I'm constantly at fear of talking about money and being bashed on the spot. Not like I try to improve on that anyway, I've seen how rich is the rest of the world and I think we should have a little talk here. Also, we don't incentive successful ones to come back. The retirement and health systems welcome you like someone who is intensely rich, which, in France, isn't good. And intensely rich starts at the programmer wage. We like to say "Fuite des cerveaux" when talking about our engineers going to [insert any place in the rest of the world]. But we're getting into the range of "Fuite des mains": Two blue collar of my friends have left to Canada. We need to have a little talk in France about money. That said... I came back from Australia to France to start my company. The competent doctors was a big one for me, as well as a cheaper cost of living. NB: Thanks heaps to Liam for doing this little research. Looking forward to the list of local startups, e.g. Xavier Niel.
rtpg 13y ago
Women entrepreneurs are relevant because there is (at least in general media) a recognition that there are a lot of negative stimuli towards women (especially when young) aiming to be entrepreneurs. Everyone needs role models. French entrepeneurs are relevant maybe to counter the idea that France doesn't know how to innovate. I'm not sure how relevant ebay's guy is as an example. As someone who did something similar (Born in France, went to US for elementary school and middle school, back in france for HS Uni) I feel more american than french.
- liam_boogar 13y ago
  Definitely agree that the eBay example is a stretch (i wrote the article); however, I grew up in the Bay Area around French families (mostly engineers), and there was a certain French culture retained - not sure how you feel with respect to that. The greater idea was that there is something inherently 'French' that produces great entrepreneurs - not that these particular ones owe France anything, but that it's worth reflecting on.
watwut 13y ago
To counter the general conviction of some Americans that only American males innovate and start startups? Now, we need some examples of "I innovate but I do not run startup" to counter the idea that starting startup is the only way to innovate.
- sentenza 13y ago
  Done. Here are the videos of the 30C3: http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2013/ http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2013/ Lots of hacking. Startups, not so much.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
Udo 13y ago
I agree with your point, but I'd like to say that the woman-founder article was a personal blog entry that got 104 upvotes, is 8 hours old and currently ranks at #90 on HN at the very bottom of the third page - compared to this piece of meaningless top-ten writing which got 39 upvotes, is 6 hours old, and still going strong on the front page.

by ozh 13y ago

Gmo 13y ago

I think, for this particular exemple, this is due to the recent rise in French bashing in a lot of British and American medias. That included some nuggets such as “The best thinkers in France have left the country. What is now left is mediocrity.” So I guess, we, French, have decided to fight back all of this and prove them wrong. Granted, this article is about expatriates, so one could think it is proving the quote right, but I still think this goes in the general direction of fighting back the partiality of all those articles.

liam_boogar 13y ago
Great response, Gmo! Indeed, while it doesn't entirely combat the 'bashing' - some of the bashing is due, so we can't expect to entirely reject all criticism - it does put a stick in the bicycle wheel of the "France doesn't have a word for entrepreneur" banter.
- vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
  Origin of Entrepreneur : French, from Old French, from entreprendre; to undertake. I guess the irony is lost on them.
  - aragot 13y ago
    Just a question: Doesn't "entrepreneur" totally sound French? I'm French so it's obvious to me, but I'm surprised you fetched a dictionnary to back you up. Do English speakers need to be scholar to guess it's a French word?
    - vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
      French as well, so I'm only backing my point with the dictionary definition ;) Given how weirdly they tend to pronounce french word and sometimes transform them -see rouge (but it's only fair since we do the same sometimes) I guess it doesn't hurt to reiterate it.
      - philbarr 13y ago
        The "the French don't have a word for entrepreneur" is supposedly a quote from George Bush [1], and he's ridiculed for it because we all know "entrepreneur" is French. [1] http://www.snopes.com/quotes/bush.asp http://www.snopes.com/quotes/bush.asp
        vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
        That would explain a lot indeed. And don't take any offence with what's been said above, it's funny to see a word / idiom / expression being taken over by the english language, as much as the opposite; ie : The Hangover being translated Very Bad Trip.
        lmm 13y ago
        Does the phrase you're translating as "Very Bad Trip" have the same druggie double meaning in French?
        vvvVVVvvv 13y ago
        Kinda but it's mostly bad drug experience, whereas The Hangover encompass any substance (especially alcohol). It's an unimaginative 'translation', making it sound more fancy than the literal french equivalent ("La cuite").
        yardie 13y ago
        I didn't even know this quote came from anywhere in particular. I honestly believed it was poking fun at the French bureaucracies inability to grow small businesses due to taxes and social charges. Even a few years ago if you wanted to start a new business in a market that didn't exist yet you would be told it can't be done. For example, "Le Camion qui Fume" had to spend years to get the business license because the concept of the food truck didn't exist in France. Surprisingly, mobile epiceries, bakers, and butchers have existed for years so I don't know why mobile restaurants took so long.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

liam_boogar 13y ago

I can't speak to the other posts, but as the author of this post, the intrigue for me is that the common thread, their country of Origin, makes a big statement about France's ability to educate and product entrepreneurs. There is also a subtle undertone (I chose not to dive into it in the article, as it's been discussed in depth elsewhere) about the fact that many of France's most successful citizens found their success outside of France, suggesting that, while the French system produces a consistent flow of intelligent entrepreneurs (a keystone of a healthy startup ecosystem), it fails to create an environment in which those entrepreneurs feel they can succeed.

maigret 13y ago
Right. And for me that is positive, because creating the economical environment is easier than improving greatly the education and fostering creativity and self thinking. Basically France needs to reduce taxes on employment, and provide for better ways for investment to happen. That seems doable.
aragot 13y ago
Let's dig (Granted: It's a kind of Godwin point for a French entrepreneur post): - 71% tax above 31k€ per year: VAT 20%, Revenue tax 15%, Taxe Pro/Education 1%, [health, retirement, elderly, unemployment and similar] social mandatory fees 46%, mandatory fees and tax agent 2200€, the total is around 71%. - Research incentives "CIR" can pay up to 90% of your PhD employees, - ACCRE, women incentives and some I'm-a-victim incentives can get you 10-80k€ loans that you don't have to reimburse in case of failure. It looks to me like we're selecting our best start-ups on how well they do at smuggling benefits. It also looks like we weigh on those who could grow. Make your calculation: Without 71% of tax, how many people do our competitors hire? Last thing, there is a heavy hate for "those who make money" in France. I'm constantly at fear of talking about money and being bashed on the spot. Not like I try to improve on that anyway, I've seen how rich is the rest of the world and I think we should have a little talk here. Also, we don't incentive successful ones to come back. The retirement and health systems welcome you like someone who is intensely rich, which, in France, isn't good. And intensely rich starts at the programmer wage. We like to say "Fuite des cerveaux" when talking about our engineers going to [insert any place in the rest of the world]. But we're getting into the range of "Fuite des mains": Two blue collar of my friends have left to Canada. We need to have a little talk in France about money. That said... I came back from Australia to France to start my company. The competent doctors was a big one for me, as well as a cheaper cost of living. NB: Thanks heaps to Liam for doing this little research. Looking forward to the list of local startups, e.g. Xavier Niel.

rtpg 13y ago

Women entrepreneurs are relevant because there is (at least in general media) a recognition that there are a lot of negative stimuli towards women (especially when young) aiming to be entrepreneurs. Everyone needs role models. French entrepeneurs are relevant maybe to counter the idea that France doesn't know how to innovate. I'm not sure how relevant ebay's guy is as an example. As someone who did something similar (Born in France, went to US for elementary school and middle school, back in france for HS Uni) I feel more american than french.

liam_boogar 13y ago
Definitely agree that the eBay example is a stretch (i wrote the article); however, I grew up in the Bay Area around French families (mostly engineers), and there was a certain French culture retained - not sure how you feel with respect to that. The greater idea was that there is something inherently 'French' that produces great entrepreneurs - not that these particular ones owe France anything, but that it's worth reflecting on.

watwut 13y ago

To counter the general conviction of some Americans that only American males innovate and start startups? Now, we need some examples of "I innovate but I do not run startup" to counter the idea that starting startup is the only way to innovate.

sentenza 13y ago
Done. Here are the videos of the 30C3: http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2013/ http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2013/ Lots of hacking. Startups, not so much.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

Udo 13y ago

I agree with your point, but I'd like to say that the woman-founder article was a personal blog entry that got 104 upvotes, is 8 hours old and currently ranks at #90 on HN at the very bottom of the third page - compared to this piece of meaningless top-ten writing which got 39 upvotes, is 6 hours old, and still going strong on the front page.