8 ms·

That's a shame. The "smoke" from e-cigarettes is just vapour, and no more harmful to the people around the user than steam from a kettle. However, there's a di

by jgroome 13y ago

That's a shame. The "smoke" from e-cigarettes is just vapour, and no more harmful to the people around the user than steam from a kettle. However, there's a discussion to be had here, and it's possibly more important than the one surrounding cigarettes and second-hand smoke. It's a brand new industry and a brand new habit that people are only starting to adjust to. Ecig manufacturers are, at present, allowed to advertise their product publicly, and sell them as a lifestyle choice. They're even allowed to advertise on TV, something that the tobacco boys haven't been able to do for a very long time (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517504/VIP-E-cigarette-advert-Im-Celebrity-provokes-parents-outrage.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517504/VIP-E-cigare...). As an ecig user myself I find myself using it indoors regularly. I'm harming nobody but myself with it. But that's the problem - it's normalised the recreational ingestion of nicotine, and it's only going to become more popular. Smokers, even reformed smokers like myself, aren't going to change their habits unless they're forced to do so. So while many people are put off by indoor ecig use, until the law changes to forbid it, you're just going to have to deal with it.

bmelton 13y ago
And the counter to that is that 1) legislation has begun in a number of places, New York, Chicago, etc., to ban the indoor smoking of e-cigarettes because, at least primarily 2) the anti-smoking campaign so effectively illustrated the dangers of second-hand smoke, that people are now conditioned to equate smoke with evil (even smokers, like myself) so, despite the fact that e-cig 'smoke' is actually just vapor, many people are put off of it because of the stigma. Also, at least in New York, the legislative bodies expressed great concern that e-cig users could gasp actually be smoking liquid THC instead of liquid THC, which still wouldn't be harmful, but they're worried about the evils that would certainly infest the hearts of men as a result.
stevewillows 13y ago
I vape part-time and sneak in a pull here and there in public -- but it still feels wrong despite the lack of pollution. This said, the vape scene is awesome for us hackers. The e-cigs that look more like cigarettes don't have as much of a scene, and aren't as enjoyable as a variable voltage, low-ohm 'pipe'.
- jgroome 13y ago
  I'm using an off-the-shelf ecig, the type that's designed to look like a regular cigarette. I'm loving /r/electronic_cigarette and all the clever mods they've been coming up with. I have to be honest though, all of the various options are a bit overwhelming!
  - stevewillows 13y ago
    I started on the same type that you're on. Stop by your local B&M and check out the iTaste variable voltage battery with a dual-coil pro-tank. Also get an e-liquid that's 50/50 between vegetable glycerine (good vapor -- 'clouds') and propylene glycol (throat hit). That's the best place to start. The mod scene is totally overwhelming. Here's a basic breakdown: Low ohm - hotter liquid / pull VG - bigger 'smoke' PG - throat hit Higher wattage - fuller flavor / mouth feel Higher voltage - thicker pull I'm in the same subreddit -- it's amazing what people come up with.
MichaelGG 13y ago
>But that's the problem - it's normalised the recreational ingestion of nicotine What's the problem with recreational ingestion of nicotine? It's a light stimulant; I'm not sure why this is any worse than caffeine. And certainly isn't worse than other medications like opiates or amphetamines. I'm not a cigarette smoker, although I love cigars and probably have one or two a month on average.
- jgroome 13y ago
  >What's the problem with recreational ingestion of nicotine? It's a light stimulant; I'm not sure why this is any worse than caffeine. And certainly isn't worse than other medications like opiates or amphetamines. You're not wrong. But that's the problem - it's not enough to say "sure X is harmful, but so's Y, so it's alright". Ingesting nicotine by itself is a hell of a lot less harmful than taking it with tar and everything else that comes in a normal cigarette. But it's still a highly addictive substance, and personally, my concern is that marketing something highly addictive to the public (and, dare I say it, young people) is really seedy.
  - Semaphor 13y ago
    > But it's still a highly addictive substance I'd call it slightly addictive. It seems it only becomes highly addictive in concert with other ingredients of tobacco smoke, at least that's what the German Wikipedia [1] has and it references [2,3,4,5,6,7] (I didn't read those myself as I can't say I understand their terminology) [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotin https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotin [2] http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v30/n4/full/1300586a.html http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v30/n4/full/1300586a.html [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9089846 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9089846 [4] http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_layman/tobacco/de/l-2/4.htm#0 http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_la... [5] http://ntr.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/1/75.short http://ntr.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/1/75.short [6] http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n8/full/1300987a.html http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n8/full/1300987a.html [7] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53018/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53018/
  - 13y ago
ohwp 13y ago
"The "smoke" from e-cigarettes is just vapour" No it's not. "The levels of the toxicants were 9–450 times lower than in cigarette smoke" http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/05/tobaccocontrol-2012-050859.abstract http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/05/tobac...
humbledrone 13y ago
> That's a shame. The "smoke" from e-cigarettes is just vapour Saying "just vapor" means nothing here; consider "just chlorine vapor," for instance. Obviously the substance that has been vaporized is the important part. The most common e-cigarette vapor, propylene glycol, does have very low toxicity. But you still might not want to inhale it constantly -- no longitudinal, long-term study has been performed that simulates the e-cigarette use of PG and shows beyond doubt that it is safe. > and no more harmful to the people around the user than steam from a kettle. Nicotine is a known carcinogen, and e-cigarette vapor contains nicotine. Tea kettles do not release vaporized nicotine. The e-cigarette vapor may have a low concentration of nicotine after being exhaled, but again, nobody has extensively studied the results of breathing second-hand e-cigarette vapor over a long time period. Your assertion is completely unsupported by evidence. > I'm harming nobody but myself with it. You cannot back that up with evidence. This is your guess, and it could be wrong. Now, I happen to think that it is _likely_ that e-cigarettes will be shown to be much less dangerous than tobacco cigarettes. But my opinion, just like yours, is meaningless since it's not backed up by evidence.
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  I wonder if anyone has studied the health outcomes of nicotine-only users eg: patches, or gum?
- Semaphor 13y ago
  > Nicotine is a known carcinogen Is it? All I can find is that it promotes tumor growth if the tumor is already there but doesn't cause them by itself. >> I'm harming nobody but myself with it. >You cannot back that up with evidence. This is your guess, and it could be wrong. Clearstream [1] was done and at least one other study (can't remember the name atm). Nothing completely conclusive but at least it points towards it being rather safe. [1] http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?p=1014&lang=en http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?p=1014&lang=en
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    > All I can find is that it promotes tumor growth if the tumor is already there but doesn't cause them by itself. What's the carcinogen in chewing tobacco? Also, the idea "it's only harmful if cancer is already present" can be weak; consider prostate cancer, which is present in all men.
mattmanser 13y ago
The problem is, and you can't see this because you're a delusional addict, is that allowing e-cigs is like legalizing a highly addictive food substance and then allowing McDonald's to make a burger out of it. It might be better for smokers than smoking, but it's still a drug addiction. And then worse you're blowing that highly addictive substance into the air in a confined place and stinking the place out with a foul chemical smell of 'chocolate' or 'mint' or some other 'pleasant' smell just because you're so addicted you can't even go a couple of hours without your hit. If you were a normal person, and not a junkie, you'd never smoke those things in public because you'd see how bizarre, odd and selfish thing it is to do. So no, it's not just 'vapour' and you've got no right to try and convince people otherwise because you are, ultimately, a junkie justifying your addiction. I'm a junkie too, but at least I admit it.
- hmsimha 13y ago
  I'm not a junkie nor an addict. I have used e-cigs in the past, as I enjoy the flavor. There are liquids that do not even contain nicotine. I have used it in public. Your assertion that only a junkie would use one in a public place has been debunked.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  e-cigs are not addictive, which is the problem. As a device to get people to stop smoking much more dangerous cigarettes, they aren't very effective (yet). > It might be better for smokers than smoking, It most definitely is better than cigarettes. > but it's still a drug addiction. And so is caffeine in coffee or sugar in coke or adrenaline from running. Human beings are quite easily addicted to many things (some better than others). > If you were a normal person, and not a junkie, you'd never smoke those things in public because you'd see how bizarre, odd and selfish thing it is to do. Self righteousness is actually not effective in this case at all. > So no, it's not just 'vapour' and you've got no right to try and convince people otherwise because you are, ultimately, a junkie justifying your addiction. Strong perfume is also not just vapour and can be downright annoying, especially for someone who is allergic. > I'm a junkie too, but at least I admit it. Great. Because someone who hasn't been addicted to something bad before has absolutely ZERO clue about what is going on (skinny people telling fat people to eat less, non-smokers telling smokers to just stop smoking...its so easy right?).

by jgroome 13y ago

bmelton 13y ago

And the counter to that is that 1) legislation has begun in a number of places, New York, Chicago, etc., to ban the indoor smoking of e-cigarettes because, at least primarily 2) the anti-smoking campaign so effectively illustrated the dangers of second-hand smoke, that people are now conditioned to equate smoke with evil (even smokers, like myself) so, despite the fact that e-cig 'smoke' is actually just vapor, many people are put off of it because of the stigma. Also, at least in New York, the legislative bodies expressed great concern that e-cig users could gasp actually be smoking liquid THC instead of liquid THC, which still wouldn't be harmful, but they're worried about the evils that would certainly infest the hearts of men as a result.

stevewillows 13y ago

I vape part-time and sneak in a pull here and there in public -- but it still feels wrong despite the lack of pollution. This said, the vape scene is awesome for us hackers. The e-cigs that look more like cigarettes don't have as much of a scene, and aren't as enjoyable as a variable voltage, low-ohm 'pipe'.

jgroome 13y ago
I'm using an off-the-shelf ecig, the type that's designed to look like a regular cigarette. I'm loving /r/electronic_cigarette and all the clever mods they've been coming up with. I have to be honest though, all of the various options are a bit overwhelming!
- stevewillows 13y ago
  I started on the same type that you're on. Stop by your local B&M and check out the iTaste variable voltage battery with a dual-coil pro-tank. Also get an e-liquid that's 50/50 between vegetable glycerine (good vapor -- 'clouds') and propylene glycol (throat hit). That's the best place to start. The mod scene is totally overwhelming. Here's a basic breakdown: Low ohm - hotter liquid / pull VG - bigger 'smoke' PG - throat hit Higher wattage - fuller flavor / mouth feel Higher voltage - thicker pull I'm in the same subreddit -- it's amazing what people come up with.

MichaelGG 13y ago

>But that's the problem - it's normalised the recreational ingestion of nicotine What's the problem with recreational ingestion of nicotine? It's a light stimulant; I'm not sure why this is any worse than caffeine. And certainly isn't worse than other medications like opiates or amphetamines. I'm not a cigarette smoker, although I love cigars and probably have one or two a month on average.

jgroome 13y ago
>What's the problem with recreational ingestion of nicotine? It's a light stimulant; I'm not sure why this is any worse than caffeine. And certainly isn't worse than other medications like opiates or amphetamines. You're not wrong. But that's the problem - it's not enough to say "sure X is harmful, but so's Y, so it's alright". Ingesting nicotine by itself is a hell of a lot less harmful than taking it with tar and everything else that comes in a normal cigarette. But it's still a highly addictive substance, and personally, my concern is that marketing something highly addictive to the public (and, dare I say it, young people) is really seedy.
- Semaphor 13y ago
  > But it's still a highly addictive substance I'd call it slightly addictive. It seems it only becomes highly addictive in concert with other ingredients of tobacco smoke, at least that's what the German Wikipedia [1] has and it references [2,3,4,5,6,7] (I didn't read those myself as I can't say I understand their terminology) [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotin https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotin [2] http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v30/n4/full/1300586a.html http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v30/n4/full/1300586a.html [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9089846 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9089846 [4] http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_layman/tobacco/de/l-2/4.htm#0 http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_la... [5] http://ntr.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/1/75.short http://ntr.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/1/75.short [6] http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n8/full/1300987a.html http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v31/n8/full/1300987a.html [7] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53018/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53018/
- 13y ago

ohwp 13y ago

"The "smoke" from e-cigarettes is just vapour" No it's not. "The levels of the toxicants were 9–450 times lower than in cigarette smoke" http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/05/tobaccocontrol-2012-050859.abstract http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/05/tobac...

humbledrone 13y ago

> That's a shame. The "smoke" from e-cigarettes is just vapour Saying "just vapor" means nothing here; consider "just chlorine vapor," for instance. Obviously the substance that has been vaporized is the important part. The most common e-cigarette vapor, propylene glycol, does have very low toxicity. But you still might not want to inhale it constantly -- no longitudinal, long-term study has been performed that simulates the e-cigarette use of PG and shows beyond doubt that it is safe. > and no more harmful to the people around the user than steam from a kettle. Nicotine is a known carcinogen, and e-cigarette vapor contains nicotine. Tea kettles do not release vaporized nicotine. The e-cigarette vapor may have a low concentration of nicotine after being exhaled, but again, nobody has extensively studied the results of breathing second-hand e-cigarette vapor over a long time period. Your assertion is completely unsupported by evidence. > I'm harming nobody but myself with it. You cannot back that up with evidence. This is your guess, and it could be wrong. Now, I happen to think that it is _likely_ that e-cigarettes will be shown to be much less dangerous than tobacco cigarettes. But my opinion, just like yours, is meaningless since it's not backed up by evidence.

JulianMorrison 13y ago
I wonder if anyone has studied the health outcomes of nicotine-only users eg: patches, or gum?
Semaphor 13y ago
> Nicotine is a known carcinogen Is it? All I can find is that it promotes tumor growth if the tumor is already there but doesn't cause them by itself. >> I'm harming nobody but myself with it. >You cannot back that up with evidence. This is your guess, and it could be wrong. Clearstream [1] was done and at least one other study (can't remember the name atm). Nothing completely conclusive but at least it points towards it being rather safe. [1] http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?p=1014&lang=en http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/?p=1014&lang=en
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  > All I can find is that it promotes tumor growth if the tumor is already there but doesn't cause them by itself. What's the carcinogen in chewing tobacco? Also, the idea "it's only harmful if cancer is already present" can be weak; consider prostate cancer, which is present in all men.

mattmanser 13y ago

The problem is, and you can't see this because you're a delusional addict, is that allowing e-cigs is like legalizing a highly addictive food substance and then allowing McDonald's to make a burger out of it. It might be better for smokers than smoking, but it's still a drug addiction. And then worse you're blowing that highly addictive substance into the air in a confined place and stinking the place out with a foul chemical smell of 'chocolate' or 'mint' or some other 'pleasant' smell just because you're so addicted you can't even go a couple of hours without your hit. If you were a normal person, and not a junkie, you'd never smoke those things in public because you'd see how bizarre, odd and selfish thing it is to do. So no, it's not just 'vapour' and you've got no right to try and convince people otherwise because you are, ultimately, a junkie justifying your addiction. I'm a junkie too, but at least I admit it.

hmsimha 13y ago
I'm not a junkie nor an addict. I have used e-cigs in the past, as I enjoy the flavor. There are liquids that do not even contain nicotine. I have used it in public. Your assertion that only a junkie would use one in a public place has been debunked.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
e-cigs are not addictive, which is the problem. As a device to get people to stop smoking much more dangerous cigarettes, they aren't very effective (yet). > It might be better for smokers than smoking, It most definitely is better than cigarettes. > but it's still a drug addiction. And so is caffeine in coffee or sugar in coke or adrenaline from running. Human beings are quite easily addicted to many things (some better than others). > If you were a normal person, and not a junkie, you'd never smoke those things in public because you'd see how bizarre, odd and selfish thing it is to do. Self righteousness is actually not effective in this case at all. > So no, it's not just 'vapour' and you've got no right to try and convince people otherwise because you are, ultimately, a junkie justifying your addiction. Strong perfume is also not just vapour and can be downright annoying, especially for someone who is allergic. > I'm a junkie too, but at least I admit it. Great. Because someone who hasn't been addicted to something bad before has absolutely ZERO clue about what is going on (skinny people telling fat people to eat less, non-smokers telling smokers to just stop smoking...its so easy right?).