4 ms·

The regime doesn't respect private property rights (or human ones) consistently, so it's obvious move for an owner and their family to move somewhere that has a

The regime doesn't respect private property rights (or human ones) consistently, so it's obvious move for an owner and their family to move somewhere that has a more functional legal system and a political class that doesn't demand bribes. (Business in China is a full contact, adversarial sport... even dealing with staff is a bigger hassle than elsewhere.) The simplest question to ask oneself is: "In what kind of environment would you like your kids to grow up?"

snogglethorpe 13y ago
The article says that in many cases it's exactly the opposite: people who accumulated their wealth by dodgy means are freaking out because the government has started cracking down on the rampant corruption....
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  Assume you can't take the government's word on what is corruption. How do you distinguish "punishing someone for corruption" from "punishing someone for being rich"? The rhetoric coming out of the government is exactly the same in both cases.
  - yetanotherphd 13y ago
    >Assume you can't take the government's word on what is corruption. That is a big assumption. The Chinese government is very flawed, but you are wrong in assuming that they would define corruption in a completely arbitrary manner. They would most likely (as they have done already) make an example of the worst, most clear cut, cases.
    - vinceguidry 13y ago
      I would appreciate an elaboration on why you would give their government the benefit of the doubt on this, when literally every other socialist/communist government on the planet has waged class war through kangaroo court under the guise of 'fighting corruption'?
      - snogglethorpe 13y ago
        It's abundantly clear that there's a lot of corruption in China, often involving government officials or those with connections to the government, and much of it really obvious. The Chinese government hasn't generally cracked down because they were feeling virtuous, but because their hand was forced (corruption was revealed independently), and they feared social discontent more than they feared upsetting the gravy train. It's certainly believable that they would sometimes use "corruption" as an excuse to persecute those they don't like for political and other reasons -- but they can't just ignore every case of true corruption, especially obvious ones, because they don't want to risk real public unrest.
      - philwelch 13y ago
        China doesn't have a socialist/communist government, they have a technocratic oligarchy that rules via something that calls itself "the communist party".
        vinceguidry 13y ago
        That's what a socialist / communist government is, a technocratic oligarchy.
        philwelch 13y ago
        The form of government is the same, but the Chinese don't appear to follow the same communist ideology that every other communist government did in the 20th century, or indeed the same ideology that they themselves followed from Mao to Deng. You hear about "democratic socialism", which is a democratic government that implements socialist policies. China has the opposite: a communist government that implements capitalist policies. Considering the abject failure of 20th century Soviet-style communism, it's not a foregone conclusion that the Chinese will follow that example.
      - reuven 13y ago
        Yes, one of the problems with China seems not only to be that the party is corrupt, and encourages corruption, but that it is immune from investigation and punishment. I read a book this summer about the Chinese Communist Party (http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0061708771 http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0...), and was rather surprised to find that the party exists outside of the Chinese legal system. So there's this entire apparatus that cannot, under Chinese law, be investigated, sued, or otherwise held accountable. I think that it's somewhat inevitable that power without accountability will lead to massive corruption -- all the more so when you're dealing with a country as immense as China, which has accumulated such wealth in recent years. I find it easy to believe that some wealthy Chinese, unsure of when the party (so to speak) will be over, and when they might be accused (rightfully or not) of corruption, just decide to leave.
- leoc 13y ago
  Those two possibilities aren't mutually exclusive at all, though.
edwinnathaniel 13y ago
Unfortunately there is no right answer for such question. Moving to a country that is advertised of the polar opposite of China is like watching an advertisement of KFC and decided that KFC is better than McD.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Switzerland is the polar opposite of China, at least that's my feeling from living in both countries (2 years in the former, 6+ years in the latter).
gbog 13y ago
I don't know. For example many rich people flee France right now, and in some respect it is also because of private property not being safe. Kids: maybe I'm foolish, I want my kids to grow in China. The air is bad but they will respect their teacher and elders, they will be able to safely walk in any streets, they experience a fast changing and exciting environment, with friendly and welcoming neighbors, and maybe most importantly they will be well equipped mentally and culturally to understand the world all the kids of their generation will have to live in. All of that is obviously weighting much more than air considerations.
- XorNot 13y ago
  No they're "fleeing" because of a 70% upper marginal tax bracket on person income. And I question how many have actually left, as opposed to saying they totally will. I seriously doubt France will really miss them, since it's unlikely they paid much of the previous bracket in the first place, and they won't very well stop doing business there.
  - gbog 13y ago
    Yes, they flee because they feel their wealth is not safe in France. And they do, a lot of them. I do not think France would miss them for the loss in tax income. But I think France should be more welcoming with successful people, and accept that in our world wealth is a marker of success.
  - yodsanklai 13y ago
    "No they're "fleeing" because of a 70% upper marginal tax bracket on person income" Not quite true. "Beyond 500 000 euros in yearly revenue, the maximum tax rate on the revenue is 49 %. The 75 % tax bracket was censored by the Conseil constitutionnel, and is now paid by the companies." [1] "And I question how many have actually left". Apparently, it's no so clear. "The idea that France is experiencing a massive tax exile is widespread in some political circles and sometimes covered in the press, but there are absolutely no tangible proof that such an exile is happening." [1] [1] - http://decodeurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2014/01/06/the-fall-of-newsweek-french-bashing-gone-wrong/ http://decodeurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2014/01/06/the-fall-of-news...

snogglethorpe 13y ago

The article says that in many cases it's exactly the opposite: people who accumulated their wealth by dodgy means are freaking out because the government has started cracking down on the rampant corruption....

thaumasiotes 13y ago
Assume you can't take the government's word on what is corruption. How do you distinguish "punishing someone for corruption" from "punishing someone for being rich"? The rhetoric coming out of the government is exactly the same in both cases.
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  >Assume you can't take the government's word on what is corruption. That is a big assumption. The Chinese government is very flawed, but you are wrong in assuming that they would define corruption in a completely arbitrary manner. They would most likely (as they have done already) make an example of the worst, most clear cut, cases.
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    I would appreciate an elaboration on why you would give their government the benefit of the doubt on this, when literally every other socialist/communist government on the planet has waged class war through kangaroo court under the guise of 'fighting corruption'?
    - snogglethorpe 13y ago
      It's abundantly clear that there's a lot of corruption in China, often involving government officials or those with connections to the government, and much of it really obvious. The Chinese government hasn't generally cracked down because they were feeling virtuous, but because their hand was forced (corruption was revealed independently), and they feared social discontent more than they feared upsetting the gravy train. It's certainly believable that they would sometimes use "corruption" as an excuse to persecute those they don't like for political and other reasons -- but they can't just ignore every case of true corruption, especially obvious ones, because they don't want to risk real public unrest.
    - philwelch 13y ago
      China doesn't have a socialist/communist government, they have a technocratic oligarchy that rules via something that calls itself "the communist party".
      - vinceguidry 13y ago
        That's what a socialist / communist government is, a technocratic oligarchy.
        philwelch 13y ago
        The form of government is the same, but the Chinese don't appear to follow the same communist ideology that every other communist government did in the 20th century, or indeed the same ideology that they themselves followed from Mao to Deng. You hear about "democratic socialism", which is a democratic government that implements socialist policies. China has the opposite: a communist government that implements capitalist policies. Considering the abject failure of 20th century Soviet-style communism, it's not a foregone conclusion that the Chinese will follow that example.
    - reuven 13y ago
      Yes, one of the problems with China seems not only to be that the party is corrupt, and encourages corruption, but that it is immune from investigation and punishment. I read a book this summer about the Chinese Communist Party (http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0061708771 http://www.amazon.com/The-Party-Secret-Chinas-Communist/dp/0...), and was rather surprised to find that the party exists outside of the Chinese legal system. So there's this entire apparatus that cannot, under Chinese law, be investigated, sued, or otherwise held accountable. I think that it's somewhat inevitable that power without accountability will lead to massive corruption -- all the more so when you're dealing with a country as immense as China, which has accumulated such wealth in recent years. I find it easy to believe that some wealthy Chinese, unsure of when the party (so to speak) will be over, and when they might be accused (rightfully or not) of corruption, just decide to leave.
leoc 13y ago
Those two possibilities aren't mutually exclusive at all, though.

edwinnathaniel 13y ago

Unfortunately there is no right answer for such question. Moving to a country that is advertised of the polar opposite of China is like watching an advertisement of KFC and decided that KFC is better than McD.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Switzerland is the polar opposite of China, at least that's my feeling from living in both countries (2 years in the former, 6+ years in the latter).

gbog 13y ago

I don't know. For example many rich people flee France right now, and in some respect it is also because of private property not being safe. Kids: maybe I'm foolish, I want my kids to grow in China. The air is bad but they will respect their teacher and elders, they will be able to safely walk in any streets, they experience a fast changing and exciting environment, with friendly and welcoming neighbors, and maybe most importantly they will be well equipped mentally and culturally to understand the world all the kids of their generation will have to live in. All of that is obviously weighting much more than air considerations.

XorNot 13y ago
No they're "fleeing" because of a 70% upper marginal tax bracket on person income. And I question how many have actually left, as opposed to saying they totally will. I seriously doubt France will really miss them, since it's unlikely they paid much of the previous bracket in the first place, and they won't very well stop doing business there.
- gbog 13y ago
  Yes, they flee because they feel their wealth is not safe in France. And they do, a lot of them. I do not think France would miss them for the loss in tax income. But I think France should be more welcoming with successful people, and accept that in our world wealth is a marker of success.
- yodsanklai 13y ago
  "No they're "fleeing" because of a 70% upper marginal tax bracket on person income" Not quite true. "Beyond 500 000 euros in yearly revenue, the maximum tax rate on the revenue is 49 %. The 75 % tax bracket was censored by the Conseil constitutionnel, and is now paid by the companies." [1] "And I question how many have actually left". Apparently, it's no so clear. "The idea that France is experiencing a massive tax exile is widespread in some political circles and sometimes covered in the press, but there are absolutely no tangible proof that such an exile is happening." [1] [1] - http://decodeurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2014/01/06/the-fall-of-newsweek-french-bashing-gone-wrong/ http://decodeurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2014/01/06/the-fall-of-news...