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I'm generally very skeptical of authors or papers that make claims about "quantum processes" and consciousness because they are generally written by people who
by mgraczyk 13y ago
I'm generally very skeptical of authors or papers that make claims about "quantum processes" and consciousness because they are generally written by people who know very little about neurology and even less about quantum physics. Ask them about quantum entanglement, and you'll generally get a misguided interpretation based on a decades old mistake in reasoning that has long since been corrected [1][2]. However, I decided to give this paper a try not because I expected there to be any actual content, but just to see why otherwise intelligent people would be drawn to what I consider to be obvious pseudoscience.
I didn't read the whole thing, but from what I know of quantum mechanics and QFT (standard undergraduate course load) I didn't see anything wildly misguided. This tells me that one of two things are true.
1. This paper describes a legitimate link between a non-classical process occurring in the brain that may "cause" consciousness. I do not know enough about the brain to rigorously evaluate the claims.
2 (more likely). Quantum physics is hard, even for scientists. Neither of the paper's author's are physicists, and neither have done any _recent_ meaningful work in any subfield of physics. I would expect that groundbreaking work in physics would require ideas beyond an undergraduate level, but I did not see any physics in the paper I didn't understand. It looks like at the very least, there is room for a false positive. What I mean by "false positive" is that sometimes not about A will cause you to reason that Q->C even when the truth is A->Q and A->C (correlation does not imply causation...). For example, it could be that the electrical signals of the brain that cause consciousnes + quantum effect, but if the same signals were running through a semiconductor we would instead see a different quantum effect (depletion zones, electron holes...). If our brains were made of 5nm CMOS transistors, a non-physicist might see quantum tunneling and conclude that it somehow caused consciousness.
I think the most important thing for non-physicists like me to remember about papers like this is that although sometimes scientists make important discoveries outside their fields we should allow specialists in the area to evaluate the non-physicists claims before believing them ourselves.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism
[2] http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/76036/how-does-qft-help-with-entanglement http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/76036/how-does-qf...
EDIT
Penrose did important work on the nature of black holes ~40 years ago. At one point in time he was a real physicist.
- carbocation 13y agoExcellent post. When you say "false positive" you could substitute "confounding effect" to use a more specific term for what you've described, by the way.
- waterlesscloud 13y agoWhatever you think of their theory, Roger Penrose is most definitely a physicist who has done meaningful work in various subfields of physics.
- mgraczyk 13y agoYou are correct. However I don't know of anything he's done in recent years that could be considered legitimate physics.
- waterlesscloud 13y agoAlright, when we're to the point of saying Penrose is no longer a real physicist or doing legitimate physics and implying that he doesn't have a very deep understanding of quantum physics... Well, there's not much point in continuing.
- cscurmudgeon 13y ago> real physicist When people can't debate on facts, they search for things like this. There is no use in continuing.
- nkvl 13y agoHere's an edge.org answer that briefly touches on this - from the other end, by another great physicist, Anton Zeilinger[0]: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25548 http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25548 [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Zeilinger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Zeilinger
- dnautics 13y agoI liked this: If I may add - my personal few cents - 1) I am filled with distaste when people treat quantum mechanics "like magic". In this case it's just taking an unexplained phenomenon (consciousness, or heck, even the weaker 'cognition') and pushing an explanation into a 'more obscure' corner, which I think is intellectually lazy. 2) Drop consciousness for a second, it's really quite amazing if microtubules have a role in cognition (penrose's 'weaker hypothesis' vs. penrose's 'strong thesis' which is that consciousness is QM). And people on hn should take note, because this has implications for a lot of machine learning, which sometimes is bio-mimetic (neural nets e.g.) 3) if we take 1 and 2 into consideration, it is possible that cognition and ML is feasible using LESS computational power, just that we're missing out on the correct architecture by attempting biomimicry - granted, biomimicry has served some fields well, like image processing and OCR. edit: and then I realized that my 1) is your link [1].