3 ms·

> as so many of the graduates with "bullshit degrees" are incredibly competent A history graduate is competent in what exactly? They aren't even competent at

by ye 13y ago

> as so many of the graduates with "bullshit degrees" are incredibly competent A history graduate is competent in what exactly? They aren't even competent at teaching history, which generally requires Masters or PhD. > Counseling students of the trends of the market is stupid I never said the students should counseled on the trends. But the counselors must be aware of them.

mgkimsal 13y ago
"A history graduate is competent in what exactly?" Studying/researching problems. Writing persuasive documents based on evidence. Working collaboratively in teams doing research. Or, at least, that's what I'd expect. I'd expect that almost anyone graduating with a 4 year degree in anything. Sadly, I know it's not the case. > 20 years ago, I was taking a college course on 'intro to china'. It was definitely a 'blow off' class - a 2 credit class you had to take to fulfill some general ed requirement. The class was 2 months, 1 (or maybe 2?) nights per week, and we had to write 4 'papers'. The 'papers' needed to be 1-2 pages on any topic of our choice relating to China - historical, modern, political, whatever. The instructor was a librarian by trade, and loved China, and taught the class. First papers go back to the students, and 3-5 students in the back - 'non traditionals' by the look of it (all over 30 IIRC) started complaining - loudly - that they'd been marked down because of spelling and grammar mistakes. The instructor replied that this was a college class and they should be able to write basic English competently enough to avoid basic spelling and grammar mistakes - we should all know how to use semicolons, commas, periods, capitalization rules, possessive forms, etc. One of the students shouted back "this isn't an English class - this is unfair bullshit that I'm being marked down like this". Sadly, a group of people all chimed in agreeing. The teacher was visibly shaken. Of course, not arguing this is the state of every single college class out there, and it wasn't even the norm in my experience. I was just shocked at the time that it happened at all, but now it doesn't shock me any more. Just saddens me that people think like this. Those sorts of people shouldn't be going to college in the first place, but were sold the line "get a college degree and your life will be great". It's not true.
- electronvolt 13y ago
  This unfortunately happens fairly routinely even at high level universities. Not always as publicly, though, but it does happen. I'm a faculty brat (professorial parents) at one of the top public universities in the nation. There are always students that will complain to professors that things are too hard, or that grading schemes are unfair, or etc. with very little cause. Possibly worse is that sometimes people's /parents/ will call or email their professor to appeal a grade. It does seem to be somewhat major dependent: I have /never/ seen it occur in a math class, for instance, whereas it apparently routinely occurs in my mother's English classes. (She's known for grading more stringently than many other English professors. Complaints also don't usually work.) However, I think that it's a mark of an experienced teacher that they don't let bullshit like that faze them: the one time I've seen it really affect how a class was taught, it definitely made the class worse as a learning experience. (Some vocal computer science majors thought that an algorithms course was too difficult, and the professor made it easier, which definitely was a net loss for everyone. I'm very glad that I wasn't enrolled in it.) I think it's disgusting. Sometimes professors make mistakes: in class structure, or assignment load, or grading something, or the like, and bringing that up politely is appropriate. But if they know they are assigning hard, long assignments, or the grading is fair, or the like, then it's usually for a good reason. The professors who don't care about teaching usually also don't teach hard courses or grade harshly, because it means more work for them. I agree that generally the people who do things like this are less likely to do well post-college. Either because their parents are hovering over them (see parental phone calls) and they won't ever learn self-discipline and reliance, or because they expect that if they complain, the world will magically bend itself to their will. I think some of it happens when people are taking courses they don't want to take for a requirement, but I agree that there are a good number of people who get sold on the "college degree -> good job and happiness and money."
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    Cool insights. I don't think the 'helicopter parent' syndrome was alive and well in the late 80s, but it seems to be a 'thing' now. :/ In this particular case, the instructor was doing this out of a passion for sinology - she was a librarian who did this part-time. Perhaps full-time teaching would have helped her develop a thicker skin over the years. That said, she was already in her late 50s or early 60s at this point - not sure she'd encountered too many outright hostile students up to that point.
polymatter 13y ago
A history graduate learns how to analyze disparate sources of variable quality for a specific purpose and argue a conclusion. They should be masters of long form report, able to select relevant information from a huge library and be able to defend a position cogently. I think its some of the most transferable skills there is. I'm not sure my comp sci degree was particularly useful. The vast majority of what I learnt turns out in retrospect to be "industry focused" aka completely obsolete now.
- Domenic_S 13y ago
  > A history graduate learns how to analyze disparate sources of variable quality for a specific purpose and argue a conclusion. If you think that's how history is written, I have some bad news....
  - matwood 13y ago
    It is not how history is written, but how history is interpreted. Research and forming opinions is exactly what a history graduate should have learned while in school. This is why many lawyers study history in undergrad.

by ye 13y ago

mgkimsal 13y ago

"A history graduate is competent in what exactly?" Studying/researching problems. Writing persuasive documents based on evidence. Working collaboratively in teams doing research. Or, at least, that's what I'd expect. I'd expect that almost anyone graduating with a 4 year degree in anything. Sadly, I know it's not the case. > 20 years ago, I was taking a college course on 'intro to china'. It was definitely a 'blow off' class - a 2 credit class you had to take to fulfill some general ed requirement. The class was 2 months, 1 (or maybe 2?) nights per week, and we had to write 4 'papers'. The 'papers' needed to be 1-2 pages on any topic of our choice relating to China - historical, modern, political, whatever. The instructor was a librarian by trade, and loved China, and taught the class. First papers go back to the students, and 3-5 students in the back - 'non traditionals' by the look of it (all over 30 IIRC) started complaining - loudly - that they'd been marked down because of spelling and grammar mistakes. The instructor replied that this was a college class and they should be able to write basic English competently enough to avoid basic spelling and grammar mistakes - we should all know how to use semicolons, commas, periods, capitalization rules, possessive forms, etc. One of the students shouted back "this isn't an English class - this is unfair bullshit that I'm being marked down like this". Sadly, a group of people all chimed in agreeing. The teacher was visibly shaken. Of course, not arguing this is the state of every single college class out there, and it wasn't even the norm in my experience. I was just shocked at the time that it happened at all, but now it doesn't shock me any more. Just saddens me that people think like this. Those sorts of people shouldn't be going to college in the first place, but were sold the line "get a college degree and your life will be great". It's not true.

electronvolt 13y ago
This unfortunately happens fairly routinely even at high level universities. Not always as publicly, though, but it does happen. I'm a faculty brat (professorial parents) at one of the top public universities in the nation. There are always students that will complain to professors that things are too hard, or that grading schemes are unfair, or etc. with very little cause. Possibly worse is that sometimes people's /parents/ will call or email their professor to appeal a grade. It does seem to be somewhat major dependent: I have /never/ seen it occur in a math class, for instance, whereas it apparently routinely occurs in my mother's English classes. (She's known for grading more stringently than many other English professors. Complaints also don't usually work.) However, I think that it's a mark of an experienced teacher that they don't let bullshit like that faze them: the one time I've seen it really affect how a class was taught, it definitely made the class worse as a learning experience. (Some vocal computer science majors thought that an algorithms course was too difficult, and the professor made it easier, which definitely was a net loss for everyone. I'm very glad that I wasn't enrolled in it.) I think it's disgusting. Sometimes professors make mistakes: in class structure, or assignment load, or grading something, or the like, and bringing that up politely is appropriate. But if they know they are assigning hard, long assignments, or the grading is fair, or the like, then it's usually for a good reason. The professors who don't care about teaching usually also don't teach hard courses or grade harshly, because it means more work for them. I agree that generally the people who do things like this are less likely to do well post-college. Either because their parents are hovering over them (see parental phone calls) and they won't ever learn self-discipline and reliance, or because they expect that if they complain, the world will magically bend itself to their will. I think some of it happens when people are taking courses they don't want to take for a requirement, but I agree that there are a good number of people who get sold on the "college degree -> good job and happiness and money."
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  Cool insights. I don't think the 'helicopter parent' syndrome was alive and well in the late 80s, but it seems to be a 'thing' now. :/ In this particular case, the instructor was doing this out of a passion for sinology - she was a librarian who did this part-time. Perhaps full-time teaching would have helped her develop a thicker skin over the years. That said, she was already in her late 50s or early 60s at this point - not sure she'd encountered too many outright hostile students up to that point.

polymatter 13y ago

A history graduate learns how to analyze disparate sources of variable quality for a specific purpose and argue a conclusion. They should be masters of long form report, able to select relevant information from a huge library and be able to defend a position cogently. I think its some of the most transferable skills there is. I'm not sure my comp sci degree was particularly useful. The vast majority of what I learnt turns out in retrospect to be "industry focused" aka completely obsolete now.

Domenic_S 13y ago
> A history graduate learns how to analyze disparate sources of variable quality for a specific purpose and argue a conclusion. If you think that's how history is written, I have some bad news....
- matwood 13y ago
  It is not how history is written, but how history is interpreted. Research and forming opinions is exactly what a history graduate should have learned while in school. This is why many lawyers study history in undergrad.