8 ms·
Obtaining Antibiotics without a Prescription (2002)
- af3 13y agoBiseptol (Trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole): Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Biseptol-Co-Trimoxazole-20-tabs/dp/B00C7DUIHI/ http://www.amazon.com/Biseptol-Co-Trimoxazole-20-tabs/dp/B00... Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole Where is the news?
- timini 13y agoThis "common knowledge amongst all branches of the american special forces" is going to be a breeding ground for resistant strains.
- math 13y agoYes... Also, you can get anything you like over the counter in Cambodia and presumably other less developed countries ... good luck to anyone trying to regulate that.
- brianpgordon 13y agoCambodia? It's well-known that if you want something without having to see a doctor, you can just drive over the border to Mexico and pick it up from a pharmacy. Obviously you can't get serious narcotics but you can certainly get antibiotics, prescription-strength toothpaste, etc.
- msandford 13y agoNice try, but not a chance. You want to see where resistance comes from? Have a little look-see at this chart: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/01/antibiotic-uses.png http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/01/a...
- chillingeffect 13y agowell, the biggest segment of the graph isn't identical to what the previous guy said, so you must be right! </casm>
- msandford 13y agoWell plus also the animals get the antibiotics in a very low dose all the time. If a human takes antibiotics it's in large doses for a week or two. Which one of those situations sounds like a long-term incubator for resistance?
- efermat 13y agoHere in Brazil, if you're friends with the pharmacist, this is easy.
- teddyh 13y agoSo what you’re saying is that Brazilian pharmacists are more corrupt than others.
- lnanek2 13y agoWell, as an American, I was going to say friends with the vet. There's lots of potent horse medicine out there as well :)
- sanoli 13y agoHere in Brazil, I just read about this ophtalmologist who switched fields, and now regularly prescribes anabolic steroids to his clients. All you have to say is you feel weak and you'd like to gain more muscle. Apparently, according to the article, a bunch of other doctors do this.
- mrfusion 13y agoThis actually might be good for my grandparents. They live pretty far out from the nearest town and during storms in the winter the roads can be blocked for a week or more. It seems like this would be something good to have in their first aid kit. Are there antibiotics that keep well and are good for general infections? (Purely as a last resort if there's no way for them to get medical attention)
- dannypgh 13y agoA very large percentage of infections are viral and antibiotics would be of no use. Hence the reason antibiotic abuse in humans is so common. I suspect antibiotics in livestock/food supply are an even greater contributor to resistance, because they are used as preventative medicine in that sector, but really, neither is good.
- adaml_623 13y agoSo are his grandparents going to catch a cold from the trees? If they don't have contact due to blocked roads then I think they can rule out viral infections? Or have I forgotten something.
- potatolicious 13y agoCan't rule it out. You don't have to be showing symptoms to be a carrier, and you can be a carrier for extended periods. It's quite possible (in fact likely) that there are plenty of virus sources waiting to get you, including inside yourself.
- viach 13y agoThat's weird. I can easily buy erythromycin in the drugstore. I thought this drugstore was for humans, well, I have never checked...
- carbocation 13y agoThe FDA only regulates drugs in the United States. Presumably you are located elsewhere, or if you are in the US you are likely referring to the same phenomenon described in this paper.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- ds9 13y ago"Since these medications are not regulated for use in humans, there are no guarantees as to their quality or potency." Also no regulation as to how they are used. Super-bugs are being bred by over-use, and a careless or ignorant individual can make his/her own infection hard to kill by using antibiotics in other than the approved way (e.g. not finishing the course).
- Tyrannosaurs 13y agoIt's not just that. Not all anti-biotics are suitable for all infections - treating a skin infection and a gut infection will tend to require different anti-biotics. Self medication is possible and, with enough research, can be done successfully and responsibly, but for most people it's really not a good idea.
- nathanvanfleet 13y agoPeople don't properly use prescribed medication. I see no indication that the takers of fish-drugs are leading the charge on this one
- TheCondor 13y agoWhy do special forces guys need to get medicine this way?
- jamescun 13y agoA guess would be that obtaining medication in an official way may affect them when it comes to selection relating to field readiness. I.e. if you are being prescribed anti-biotics it may be showing that you aren't in peak fitness so may get passed over for other fitter team members.
- tspike 13y agoThere are so many hidden penalties for seeking medical help. When I went through a bad breakup, I saw someone and he thought a mild antidepressant would help. I saw him twice and took the medication for 9 months. Almost four years later, I'm trying to get a pilot license for recreational purposes and now I have to admit to having had a mental disorder, get written statements from all providers, and go through special review from the FAA. I can't imagine what a special ops guy or airline pilot would go through. That's not even mentioning the hell I went through for pre-existing conditions as a result of this prior to the ACA. There are very strong disincentives to seek treatment.
- mberning 13y agoI have successfully diagnosed and treated MRSA and upper respiratory infections in myself. I NEVER suggest anybody else to self medicate. Most people do not take it seriously enough or do enough research to self medicate. All that being said, I think it is a shame that we live in a system where it is so expensive and inconvenient to see a real doctor that people resort to this kind of thing.
- maxerickson 13y agoActive duty special forces is likely more worried about keeping a clean medical history than expense or inconvenience.
- pmorici 13y agoI doubt that is what drove this. I'm sure they teach them that sort of thing so they know how to treat themselves in a pinch if they are on there own and can't see a real doctor. The problem is that some of them are too self confident and a little dumb so they think it is a fine idea to give it a go during every day life even when there is a doctor available to them. Think, "I'm not lost and don't need to ask for directions I'll just follow the north star like they taught us."
- karmajunkie 13y agoI've got family who is ex elite forces, and I met a number of his comrades in arms at his wedding last year. Cocksure and self-confident? Certainly. A little dumb? I can say without qualification that they are not.
- carbocation 13y agoBy what means did you self-diagnose MRSA? At a hospital, that would involve a Gram stain / culture/speciation / sensitivities and take a few days. Gram stain, because it's very fast (minutes) and can tell you, e.g., that you have Gram positive cocci in clusters (thus, likely staphylococcus species). Culture, then, to grow the bugs and see what nutritional requirements they have and what biochemical modifications they make. Catalase producing? Likely staph aureus. Finally, sensitivities: resistant to oxacillin? MRSA. One could imagine PCR-based tests, too, though at my institution such a test is not in use. Getting back to my question, how did you successfully self-diagnose MRSA?
- noonespecial 13y agoNotice our friend was already in a world of hurt by the time he went for help. Not only had he likely made his infection worse by helping it build tolerance while misdosing random antibiotics, even if he hadn't, he made it worse by waiting to get professional care. Antibiotics are a balancing game of just the right dose. I suppose vet medicine is better than nothing at all in dire straights but if its at all possible, see a people doctor. They're good at that sort of thing.
- guard-of-terra 13y agoBut on the other hand he skipped going to a doctor and maybe paying for the privilege. I think he should have right to bet on it. Most times he will win. I think that most limitations on sale of medications are bad for people and should be lifted. I'm also not so sure that people doctors are so good. I fail to understand how commanding people what to do with their own body is suddently okay when it comes to medicine.
- ClementM 13y agoThe fact that so many people are looking to get drugs without a prescription makes me reflect on the accessibility to healthcare in this country....
- msandford 13y agoThe folks in the special forces community have access to doctors. They're in the military. There are doctors in the military too and their whole job is looking after soldiers. If you really want to get right down to it, why are guys in special forces (arguably reasonably smart, also evidenced by their figuring out this antibiotics trick) NOT going to see an army doc right away? If I was going to be a really snarky asshole I might suggest that perhaps because it's a single-payer system the quality of care isn't that great and blah blah blah. I don't really believe that but arguments can be made both ways. Don't be a troll.
- brazzy 13y agoAnother comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7063539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7063539 ) seems to imply that special forces soldiers avoid seeing army docs because any recorded medical problem might hurt their career.
- a3n 13y agoI think maxerickson over in another subthread hit it on the head, "Active duty special forces is likely more worried about keeping a clean medical history than expense or inconvenience." These people are by definition and filtering hyper-motivated. More generally, what makes sense for your career sometimes negatively affects other areas, but we tend to protect our careers.
- spindritf 13y agoJuly 18, 2002 Has anything changed?
- angersock 13y agoYep. The efficacy of those antibiotics, I'd wager.
- brianpgordon 13y agoNope. I bought (fish) amoxicillin for my first-aid kit a couple of weeks ago. It says USP pharmaceutical grade, and the pills look exactly like Google image search says human amoxicillin looks. I suppose since it's unregulated they could be putting sugar or arsenic or something in the pills, but I'd imagine they'd be in hot water with some pissed off fish owners if that were the case.
- davak 13y agoICU doctor here. I frequently see complications of overuse of antibiotics. C diff colitis (1) is certainly the most obvious, but resistant pneumonias and urinary tract infections are becoming more common as well. Many resistant organisms set up shop in chronically ill patients who see multiple rounds of antibiotics through their lives; however, in just my short 10 year history as a physician, the increasing amount of resistant staphylococcus (specifically MRSA) and VRE (2) found out in the community has changed how we treat many suspected infections. Although some of this is due to overprescription by the healthcare profession, there are likely other selection components in our environment. Just as you can buy these antibiotics for animal use, so can people raising livestock. The FDA realizes this is a problem. (3) Personally, the sad part to me is that our medical system is so expensive that treating routine, mild infections can cost hundreds of dollars. Thus, people search out these alternative riskier, but cheaper methods. (1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_difficile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_difficile (2)http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/slyutse/resistance%20graph.jpg http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/slyutse/resistance%20graph... (3)http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm378100.htm http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm378100.ht...
- conductr 13y agoCurious: Do these problems exist in other countries where even strong antibiotics are sold OTC? I would guess not as bad, the culture in the US is to medicate immediately at first sign of illness. When I get sick, I try to just let it run it's course.
- DanBC 13y agoIndia has a serious problem with some antibiotic resistant illnesses because many people are too poor to buy a full course but are convinced of tbe efficacy of a few days of treatment. But overuse of antibiotics for things like ear infections is also part of the problem too.
- gautamc 13y agoWhen I was in India I got antibiotics OTC a few times for myself after I self diagnosed using the internet. Because my mum went to med-school I was always very aware about the need to complete the course. I am sure that not everybody is as careful: http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/shalini/211/65030/anitbiotic-resistance-in-india-are-there-solutions.html http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/shalini/211/65030/anitbiotic-res... In India there are lots of doctors running small individual practices, due to this for simple diagnosis and prescription they would charge a small fee in cash and be done with it. Infact, I know for a fact that the Ayurvedic doctor near our house used to charge less than the standard Doctor. When I came to the US, I found things here to be more restrictive - but I guess in the interest of safety we have to accept these restrictions.
- squirejons 13y agoI predict that the corporate media will run with this story and that as a consequence this source of medicine will soon disappear. We cannot have the profits of our Most Holy Corporations drop. Cheap antibiotics will cause a drop in the Most Holy Profits of Our Sacred Corporations, and That Is Not Permissible.
- Sharlin 13y agoYou do realize that it's a Very Good Thing Indeed For Everybody if the reckless use of antibiotics is reined in as much as possible?
- puzzlingcaptcha 13y agoThe linked paper is from 2002. Has anything changed with regards to regulation in the past 10 years?
- DanBC 13y agoHow much profit do you think is made on antibiotics? How much profit is made by the misuse of antibiotics in animal rearing?
- pessimizer 13y ago>Cheap antibiotics will cause a drop in the Most Holy Profits of Our Sacred Corporations The opposite is true: with bacteria resistant to ancient antibiotics that are out of patent and work in weeks, the only alternative will be treatment for months or years with heavily patented drugs of dubious effectiveness and long hospital stays. Is that your preferred outcome?
- Fomite 13y agoNot to mention treatment for the side effects. Our last ditch antibiotics are not gentle drugs.
- angersock 13y agoIncreasing access to antibiotics is not necessarily a good thing.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- carbocation 13y agoWhen actions taken based on the perceived self-interest of individuals put the public health at harm, any public health program will probably be perceived as paternalistic. The cavalier approach to antibiotic custodianship you are describing is exactly why we have limitations on antibiotic availability in this country.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- carbocation 13y agoYou're reading too much into my post. I'm neither advocating nor opposing the current model of who gets to prescribe antibiotics and how hard it is to see the gatekeepers (currently doctors). But I do endorse some sort of system in which there are (hopefully somewhat enlightened) gatekeepers. Plenty of miserable, painful infectious diseases are not bacterial in nature. This is an issue that pits public health against the perceived (not actual) self interests of people who want antibiotics. Public health is not medicine, though it does guide medicine. Also, "Fuck you doctor" is a greeting that I've never seen before. Hilarious.
- jrs235 13y agoWell that's too bad his post got deleted. While the following doesn't address all the issues [he has], depending on location int he U.S. many "express clinics" are popping up in convenient locations (like grocery and retail stores) that do not require an appointment, can diagnose common ailments (such as ear infections), write prescriptions (for such common ailments as ear infections), and are relatively inexpensive.
- PythonicAlpha 13y agoI don't live in the US, so I can only tell from my country, that I think is even more what pisses you off. I don't think, that every use of medicine should be regulated, but antibiotics I see different and I am really not amused hearing, that you can get them in fish stores ... The problem of modern medicine today is, that more and more resistances occur. The reason is: Overuse or wrong use of antibiotics. That problem is already causing many, many deaths and extraneous diseases every year. The problem will grow. Of course, the main reason is -- as much I know -- the use of antibiotics in meat production. But even then, when everybody would have free access to antibiotics, the problem would be worsen a lot, since most people even in western world are not ready to handle them right.
- drivingmenuts 13y agoBefore I had health insurance/well-paying job, buying fishmox was the standby plan if I needed antibiotics. It occurs to me now that, even though I haven't taken many antibiotics in my life, it wouldn't matter - the bugs I would catch would be from other people and would have built up resistances to whatever I took. Unfortunately, I told my mom about fishmox a long time ago (during same salad days) and now I sort of wish I hadn't. It's her standby plan and I'm not likely to be able to convince her otherwise.
- GrinningFool 13y ago"the bugs I would catch would be from other people and would have built up resistances to whatever I took" This seems to imply an assumption that all bacteria are resistant, when it's my understanding that this is actually a small [in relative terms] but growing phenomenon.
- drivingmenuts 13y agoTrue, but given my limited antibiotics exposure (I just haven't had to take them much), the chances of getting a resistant bug from someone else are much higher than my getting a resistant bug from nature (which I have limited exposure to now). I probably could have phrased it better. Blame lack of coffee.
- ffrryuu 13y agoGarlic, colloidal silver, MMS, etc...
- mynegation 13y agoOr go to India, or Russia. Antibiotics are sold over the counter and (at least in case of India last time I checked) are dirt cheap.
- maxerickson 13y agoA lot of antibiotics in the U.S. are basically free. For instance, Walmart has a $4 prescription program: http://www.walmart.com/cp/PI-4-Prescriptions/1078664 http://www.walmart.com/cp/PI-4-Prescriptions/1078664 Lots of other places have similar programs/prices. So the expensive part is getting the prescription.
- nanidin 13y agoThe final uninsured cost being closer to $100 :(
- bananacurve 13y agoBugs and Drugs gives good local info. http://www.epocrates.com/e/BugsAndDrugs http://www.epocrates.com/e/BugsAndDrugs