10 ms·

No-fly list takes legal hit

186 points by andrewfong 13y ago

nowarninglabel 13y ago
As someone who has had to deal with the list, good for this woman for fighting it. My name (or rather, the name I share with whomever it is the government was really after) led me to having five years of not being able to check in to flights after 2001 without going to the counter, giving ID and confirming my birth date, and waiting for the agent to make a phone call (presumably to Homeland Security), which would invariably take a solid 15 minutes of waiting, until I got the all clear and could be checked in, get my tickets, and board my flight. Fortunately, sometime in '06 or '07 I received information on how to remove oneself from the list by filling out a form. I can't recall if I found it independently or if it was given to me by an airline agent, but a few months after turning that in I no longer had to deal with the list again. Perhaps, I should have actually fought against it as well, but in my case it was always just due to the happenstance of having the same name as someone on the list.
- mjn 13y ago
  Same here, lasted around 2005-08 for me. Completely non-transparent. My name was put on some kind of list without my knowledge (it's a common name), and I was repeatedly delayed every time I tried to fly. Nobody would actually acknowledge anything or give me information about what I could do about it, even though it was pretty obvious what the reason was.
- jandrewrogers 13y ago
  Same story here. I was often delayed by 45 minutes or more. Basically, I as a native-born American citizen with no criminal record (and ironically, worked for the DoD at one time), could not board a plane without the express permission of the government such that I was delayed while waiting for that permission. Everyone I was traveling with was allowed to go on, I was stuck behind. It was a real source of difficulty for me for a few years. At some point it went out of sight, though I still received special treatment at the border for a while. Consequently, I have a pretty negative view of the "no-fly" lists. Anyone sufficiently dangerous to put on the list is sufficiently dangerous to be arrested. Anything short of that is an obvious lack of due process.
angersock 13y ago
So, an interesting bit: "In a decision for the most part sealed, U.S. District Judge William Alsup disclosed that Rahinah Ibrahim was mistakenly placed on the controversial list and said that the government must now clear up the mistake." As I understand it, the vast majority of the US legal system is based on common law--that is, on using the rulings of previous judges and courts in order to determine how a new case is handled. Isn't the idea of sealed decisions and secret courts pretty much striking at the very core of our entire system of justice?
- steve-howard 13y ago
  > The Obama administration has vigorously contested the case, the first of its kind to reach trial, warning that it might reveal top-secret information about the anti-terrorism program. As a result, Alsup sealed his ruling until April to give the government an opportunity to persuade a federal appeals court to keep the order from being released publicly. Sealed 'til April isn't that unreasonable if we're pretending they're going to spend those three months revamping their anti-terrorism efforts.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
linuxhansl 13y ago
> The Obama administration has vigorously contested the case, the first of its kind to reach trial, warning that it might reveal top-secret information about the anti-terrorism program How often and how long will we hear this nonsense. The no-fly list has never caught or deterred a terrorist. We cannot stop the legal process with the blanket "national security" card.
- Crito 13y ago
  Seriously, if there is anybody on that list that is on that list legitimately, why the hell haven't they been arrested for whatever they did to get themselves on that list? The answer of course is that nobody on that list has actually done anything illegal. The entire thing is a perversion of justice.
  - jonnybgood 13y ago
    > why the hell haven't they been arrested for whatever they did to get themselves on that list? Read my reply to the parent. It's a preventive measure.
    - Crito 13y ago
      > radicalized American And yet tried for nothing and convicted of nothing. It is a perversion of justice, full stop.
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    I'm beginning to feel that the purpose of this list is actually quite different - that it is a deterrant for regular people, an incentive not to speak out or talk to any non-mainstream-political group in fear of having their lives being made increasingly difficult by things like getting included on this list. This list is not aimed at terrorists, it's aimed at us. Er, US.
    - mcherm 13y ago
      That is a really terrifying and cynical possibility. I wish I could conclusively disbelieve it.
srl 13y ago
I thought the judge's name sounded familiar, so I checked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup Yup. This was the guy who learned Java because he felt he needed to know how to program to be qualified to make a ruling in Oracle v Google. I usually dislike criticizing or praising individual judges (unlike politicians, it's not for the public to pick and choose -- nor should it be), but this one is really remarkable.
- npt4279 13y ago
  I love one of his quotes from that case: ------------ In one episode, Oracle's star lawyer... was arguing that Google copied the nine lines of rangeCheck code to accelerate development to gain faster entry into the mobile phone market. Alsup told Boies, "I have done, and still do, a significant amount of programming in other languages. I've written blocks of code like rangeCheck a hundred times before. I could do it, you could do it. The idea that someone would copy that when they could do it themselves just as fast, it was an accident. There's no way you could say that was speeding them along to the marketplace. You're one of the best lawyers in America --how could you even make that kind of argument?" http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57445082-94/judge-william-alsup-master-of-the-court-and-java/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57445082-94/judge-william-a...
  - Stratoscope 13y ago
    Thank you for sharing that. It's now my favorite legal quote. Never argue with Hacker Judge. http://www.hvjmphotography.com/p954955302 http://www.hvjmphotography.com/p954955302
    - ProAm 13y ago
      Not a 'hacker' judge. Ugh.
    - Fuxy 13y ago
      Not quite a hacker judge but certainly the best qualified judge in the system to rule on programming matters. Got to admire his willingness to learn and his ability to recognize when he needs to learn something before ruling.
crazytony 13y ago
Even if I understand (but probably don't agree with) the existence of the list and the need to keep the contents confidential I don't understand why the criteria/process used to put a name on the list needs to be confidential other than they want judges to rule from fear, uncertainty and doubt.
fpgeek 13y ago
To me the most shocking thing (of many) about this case is the steps DHS took to prevent the woman's daughter (a US citizen!) from returning to the US to testify: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131204/10434025453/dhs-puts-witness-trial-over-legality-no-fly-list-no-fly-list-making-her-late-her-testimony.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131204/10434025453/dhs-p...
greenyoda 13y ago
For those who are interested, there's a blog called "Papers, Please!", run by a group called "The Identity Project", which has been following this trial in some detail: http://papersplease.org http://papersplease.org "The Identity Project explores and defends the fundamental American right to move freely around our country and to live without constantly having to prove who we are or why we are here."
- deathanatos 13y ago
  Since the mercurynews article didn't cover it, be sure to read the article where the plaintiff's daughter, a US citizen, was prevented from entering the US to testify at the trial.[1] [1]: http://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/07/no-fly-trial-day-5-part-2-what-happened-to-the-plaintiffs-daughter/ http://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/07/no-fly-trial-day-5-par...
avighnay 13y ago
Once a female security officer in Amsterdam airport made loud, snide remarks about how I arranged cables and stuff in my laptop bag. That by itself was very annoying, imagine being called off in front of all people like a criminal for no fault of theirs!
tempodox 13y ago
The DHS should rebrand as the “Department of Humiliation as a Service”. And, aliens get this service for free, courtesy of the generous US tax payer.

186 points by andrewfong 13y ago

As someone who has had to deal with the list, good for this woman for fighting it. My name (or rather, the name I share with whomever it is the government was really after) led me to having five years of not being able to check in to flights after 2001 without going to the counter, giving ID and confirming my birth date, and waiting for the agent to make a phone call (presumably to Homeland Security), which would invariably take a solid 15 minutes of waiting, until I got the all clear and could be checked in, get my tickets, and board my flight. Fortunately, sometime in '06 or '07 I received information on how to remove oneself from the list by filling out a form. I can't recall if I found it independently or if it was given to me by an airline agent, but a few months after turning that in I no longer had to deal with the list again. Perhaps, I should have actually fought against it as well, but in my case it was always just due to the happenstance of having the same name as someone on the list.

mjn 13y ago
Same here, lasted around 2005-08 for me. Completely non-transparent. My name was put on some kind of list without my knowledge (it's a common name), and I was repeatedly delayed every time I tried to fly. Nobody would actually acknowledge anything or give me information about what I could do about it, even though it was pretty obvious what the reason was.
jandrewrogers 13y ago
Same story here. I was often delayed by 45 minutes or more. Basically, I as a native-born American citizen with no criminal record (and ironically, worked for the DoD at one time), could not board a plane without the express permission of the government such that I was delayed while waiting for that permission. Everyone I was traveling with was allowed to go on, I was stuck behind. It was a real source of difficulty for me for a few years. At some point it went out of sight, though I still received special treatment at the border for a while. Consequently, I have a pretty negative view of the "no-fly" lists. Anyone sufficiently dangerous to put on the list is sufficiently dangerous to be arrested. Anything short of that is an obvious lack of due process.

angersock 13y ago

So, an interesting bit: "In a decision for the most part sealed, U.S. District Judge William Alsup disclosed that Rahinah Ibrahim was mistakenly placed on the controversial list and said that the government must now clear up the mistake." As I understand it, the vast majority of the US legal system is based on common law--that is, on using the rulings of previous judges and courts in order to determine how a new case is handled. Isn't the idea of sealed decisions and secret courts pretty much striking at the very core of our entire system of justice?

steve-howard 13y ago
> The Obama administration has vigorously contested the case, the first of its kind to reach trial, warning that it might reveal top-secret information about the anti-terrorism program. As a result, Alsup sealed his ruling until April to give the government an opportunity to persuade a federal appeals court to keep the order from being released publicly. Sealed 'til April isn't that unreasonable if we're pretending they're going to spend those three months revamping their anti-terrorism efforts.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

linuxhansl 13y ago

> The Obama administration has vigorously contested the case, the first of its kind to reach trial, warning that it might reveal top-secret information about the anti-terrorism program How often and how long will we hear this nonsense. The no-fly list has never caught or deterred a terrorist. We cannot stop the legal process with the blanket "national security" card.

Crito 13y ago
Seriously, if there is anybody on that list that is on that list legitimately, why the hell haven't they been arrested for whatever they did to get themselves on that list? The answer of course is that nobody on that list has actually done anything illegal. The entire thing is a perversion of justice.
- jonnybgood 13y ago
  > why the hell haven't they been arrested for whatever they did to get themselves on that list? Read my reply to the parent. It's a preventive measure.
  - Crito 13y ago
    > radicalized American And yet tried for nothing and convicted of nothing. It is a perversion of justice, full stop.
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  I'm beginning to feel that the purpose of this list is actually quite different - that it is a deterrant for regular people, an incentive not to speak out or talk to any non-mainstream-political group in fear of having their lives being made increasingly difficult by things like getting included on this list. This list is not aimed at terrorists, it's aimed at us. Er, US.
  - mcherm 13y ago
    That is a really terrifying and cynical possibility. I wish I could conclusively disbelieve it.

srl 13y ago

I thought the judge's name sounded familiar, so I checked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup Yup. This was the guy who learned Java because he felt he needed to know how to program to be qualified to make a ruling in Oracle v Google. I usually dislike criticizing or praising individual judges (unlike politicians, it's not for the public to pick and choose -- nor should it be), but this one is really remarkable.

npt4279 13y ago
I love one of his quotes from that case: ------------ In one episode, Oracle's star lawyer... was arguing that Google copied the nine lines of rangeCheck code to accelerate development to gain faster entry into the mobile phone market. Alsup told Boies, "I have done, and still do, a significant amount of programming in other languages. I've written blocks of code like rangeCheck a hundred times before. I could do it, you could do it. The idea that someone would copy that when they could do it themselves just as fast, it was an accident. There's no way you could say that was speeding them along to the marketplace. You're one of the best lawyers in America --how could you even make that kind of argument?" http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57445082-94/judge-william-alsup-master-of-the-court-and-java/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57445082-94/judge-william-a...
- Stratoscope 13y ago
  Thank you for sharing that. It's now my favorite legal quote. Never argue with Hacker Judge. http://www.hvjmphotography.com/p954955302 http://www.hvjmphotography.com/p954955302
  - ProAm 13y ago
    Not a 'hacker' judge. Ugh.
  - Fuxy 13y ago
    Not quite a hacker judge but certainly the best qualified judge in the system to rule on programming matters. Got to admire his willingness to learn and his ability to recognize when he needs to learn something before ruling.

crazytony 13y ago

Even if I understand (but probably don't agree with) the existence of the list and the need to keep the contents confidential I don't understand why the criteria/process used to put a name on the list needs to be confidential other than they want judges to rule from fear, uncertainty and doubt.

fpgeek 13y ago

To me the most shocking thing (of many) about this case is the steps DHS took to prevent the woman's daughter (a US citizen!) from returning to the US to testify: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131204/10434025453/dhs-puts-witness-trial-over-legality-no-fly-list-no-fly-list-making-her-late-her-testimony.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131204/10434025453/dhs-p...

greenyoda 13y ago

For those who are interested, there's a blog called "Papers, Please!", run by a group called "The Identity Project", which has been following this trial in some detail: http://papersplease.org http://papersplease.org "The Identity Project explores and defends the fundamental American right to move freely around our country and to live without constantly having to prove who we are or why we are here."

deathanatos 13y ago
Since the mercurynews article didn't cover it, be sure to read the article where the plaintiff's daughter, a US citizen, was prevented from entering the US to testify at the trial.[1] [1]: http://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/07/no-fly-trial-day-5-part-2-what-happened-to-the-plaintiffs-daughter/ http://papersplease.org/wp/2013/12/07/no-fly-trial-day-5-par...

avighnay 13y ago

Once a female security officer in Amsterdam airport made loud, snide remarks about how I arranged cables and stuff in my laptop bag. That by itself was very annoying, imagine being called off in front of all people like a criminal for no fault of theirs!

tempodox 13y ago

The DHS should rebrand as the “Department of Humiliation as a Service”. And, aliens get this service for free, courtesy of the generous US tax payer.