8 ms·

Why smiling in your passport photo is forbidden

59 points by nsaparanoid 13y ago

TrainedMonkey 13y ago
TL:DR - Apparently, one of the reasons for it is so facial recognition software works better, other constraints are defined in ISO/IEC 19794.
bonemachine 13y ago
Because they don't everyone to know how happy you were the day you knew that, soon enough, you'd be leaving.
Stal3r 13y ago
This was in the news when it was announced that you couldn't smile in ID photos. I thought it was common knowledge.
Nanzikambe 13y ago
The reasoning is dumb, and the concept easily subject to abuse. If you're good at contorting your face for an extended period of time, including whilst you speak, do so for your passport photograph. Think Mr Bean or EmotionEric / http://emotioneric.com http://emotioneric.com Why would you do this? Well I did this for my passport for several reasons, foremost being I detest the idea of facial recognition, it's an invasion of my privacy and my right to digital anonymity. For the same reason I don't have a facebook page, ask friends never to tag me in images and generally avoid photographs. Secondly because passports are archaic hangovers for an era long gone. When I travel (and I do so a fair amount) I only need my ID card to do so and mine uses a picture of me, so old and of such bad quality it's practically useless. It's a small amusement, and when I've actually needed to use the passport, I've yet to meet a passport officer or customs officer who will actually ask "Do you really look like that all the time?" or crack up laughing. But I'm keeping hope alive.
- ido 13y ago
  When I travel (and I do so a fair amount) I only need my ID card How are you let across international borders with only ID? I was under the impression that is only possible under very specific circumstances (e.g. between some EU states). Specifically, I can't imagine you're are let in or out of the US (other than maybe to Canada and Mexico) with just an id...
  - Nanzikambe 13y ago
    You can travel freely to any EU, aspiring EU or Schengen country without need for a passport, you just need your national ID card. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement - https://www.bfm.admin.ch//bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html https://www.bfm.admin.ch//bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-... I've no intention of ever travelling to the US or any nation with similar travel requirements purely because that'd require a bio-metric passport. I dislike photos as it is ...
    - avar 13y ago
      Note that some countries (e.g. Iceland) are in Schengen but have no accepted national ID card that isn't the passport, so de-facto you need your passport to travel, even within Schengen. I don't know if Iceland's the rare exception here or if this goes for some other countries as well.
      - GunlogAlm 13y ago
        > I don't know if Iceland's the rare exception here or if this goes for some other countries as well. If you mean exception as an EU country with no national ID scheme: the UK, Denmark, Ireland, and Norway also don't have national ID cards. If you meant a Schengen country with no national ID: Denmark and Norway are other Schengen countries with no national ID cards (Norway isn't in the EU but is in the EFTA).
    - teh_klev 13y ago
      Sadly the dream of passport-less travel in the EU is slowly being eroded by airlines demanding passports for photo ID. Although I'm a UK citizen I don't own a UK password, I refuse to pay for one when I have no desire to travel outside the EU (there's also political reasons, but I won't go into that here). Anyway, there are some destinations I can't fly to within the UK without a passport because certain operators such as Ryan Air will only accept a passport as photo ID, which is pretty dumb. FlyBe used to have this policy but I see they've recently relented and will now even let you board with just your senior citizen bus pass :)
- ncarroll 13y ago
  Oh. I haven't thought of emotioneric in the longest time. Thanks for the smile.
- Houshalter 13y ago
  >Well I did this for my passport for several reasons, foremost being I detest the idea of facial recognition, it's an invasion of my privacy and my right to digital anonymity. Better get rid of those humans born with the ability.
- e12e 13y ago
  How is an id card different from a passport? A passport is a national id booklet?
mrt0mat0 13y ago
So, if I smile while committing a crime, facial recognition software won't be able to identify me. Got it, Thanks!
- danudey 13y ago
  More like they can more easily match you with your face, or match one picture to another (e.g. if someone tries to request a passport with your picture, or request your passport with their picture).
- dhughes 13y ago
  Everyone make note of this day: the Riddler is born.
  - brc 13y ago
    Er, don't you mean the Joker?
    - dhughes 13y ago
      Daaaaaaaaaaamnnn it! Fuck, I just made bash.org didn't I? :( Maybe it's only IRC, I can only hope.
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  Similar to, "So, if I keep my cell phone on during take-off, I can interfere with the navigation system". edit: Wow - why all the downvotes? It's the same kind of policy. Making your weakness "not allowed" is not fixing the weakness.
- operanotgoogle 13y ago
  it might still be able to identify you but not in real time. throw in sunglasses and a hat and facial recognition should fail, at least that was still true in 2001 when John Cleese tested facial recognition in BBC's The Human Face series by David Attenborough.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
Back in the day when they just took the photo you gave them and laminated it into the passport, I wondered what would happen if you printed the picture using photo reactive ink. I used to have as a sample some ink that would break down in ultraviolet light and become transparent. The use case was things like printable visitor badges that after 24 hours of exposure to light would say "VOID" on them. Basically they had the word VOID on them, then white photosensitive ink was put over it, and the badge printer printed on top of that ink. So my question was if you created two photos, and then printed over one with another, then after a while the picture in your passport would be different. The challenge I never figured out was you could get this ink in black, or white, but I wasn't sure you could make a black and white print blending the inks that would pass muster. It would have to be opaque enough to cover the picture behind it. Sadly I had to file that idea under "probably won't ever be able to know one way or another." but it might make for an interesting plot mechanism if I get around to writing a thriller.
hydralist 13y ago
tl;dr anyone?
- mark-r 13y ago
  Facial recognition requires a closed mouth. Standards organizations are adopting rules that make facial recognition possible.
  - Nanzikambe 13y ago
    This, I think the width of your mouth is a data-point which is stupid and exploitable, after all you can contort your mouth in a dozen ways without opening it or smiling (see my other post in this thread). And that doesn't even take into account the use of things like lipstick to make your mouth seem wider ...
diminoten 13y ago
Is anyone unsatisfied with the "it helps with facial recognition software" response? What part of facial recognition relies on the lack of a smile? I was hoping that would get explained here, and am disappointed that it wasn't. I think everyone assumes it's for facial recognition...
- Crito 13y ago
  If it were really for facial recognition, I wonder if they would ban passport pictures taken in the days after a wisdom tooth operation. Those can swell your lower face, pulling your mouth out more than usual. Hell, if facial recognition is so sensitive to changes in soft tissue like the location of the corners of your mouth, shape of your cheeks, or thickness of your lips, does gaining or losing a large amount of weight fuck it up? I would think that they focus more on the location of facial features that are set in stone^Wbone. On that note though, could you construct lenses that change where your eyes appear to be located?
- alanbailward 13y ago
  See my other answer, but the short version is it does make facial recognition software work better. I'm not sure if it's variations on the facial structure, or what, but my boss worked on the facial recognition software in the '01-'02 era, and it worked with more accuracy with no smiling.
- username223 13y ago
  > What part of facial recognition relies on the lack of a smile? If current facial recognition software can't handle smiles, then you just have to remember to plaster on a creepy politician-rictus-smile while walking through airports. I also wonder how some pols get passports...
- brc 13y ago
  It is for facial recognition software. I know nothing about the field, but my assumption would be that you need a plain base to work from. That way you start with a known value and you compare from the base to the image you're trying to match. If you had a smiling photo as the base, and you're trying to match a photo where the person is frowning, that must be that much harder to work out. Remember that smiling changes not on the mouth but the eyes as well. I would guess that eye shape is a key factor in making facial recognition work. For the record, I am favor of facial recognition for identity checks with passports. It means I can use the automated immigration processing queues, which are much, much faster than standing in a line waiting for a guy to ask you a couple of benign questions and stamp your passport.
dzhiurgis 13y ago
So if I smile daily and everywhere my face would be more difficult to recognise and track?
mandeepj 13y ago
You will not be smiling when you are getting interrogated at the airport security so to match your face 100% with your passport photo they don't want you to smile :-)
martingordon 13y ago
FWIW, I am smiling on my US passport issued in 2005 and haven't had any issues.
alanbailward 13y ago
I can't answer this on the site, but my boss claims that he was partially responsible for this. He worked with the company doing facial recognition software to hunting down kiddie porn makers, which was (I think) moved into terrorism detection (this is in the 2001-2002 timeframe). They couldn't get the facial recognition to work with enough accuracy with anything but a blank facial expression.
dionidium 13y ago
Is this a practical, answerable question based on an actual problem that you face? Are you deciding whether or not to do something based on answers to this question? It's an interesting question, but I don't see how it's in-scope for this stack exchange. Tangent: Oh, good god. I guess I should be heartened that it's not just programmers who think this way. What a useless sentiment this is. Stackexchange is like a super smart scientist uncle who has this one weird blind spot for homeopathy or something. It's so frustrating to see this sort of comment over and over.
- gtaylor 13y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree. I've seen some really good questions buried/closed prematurely because of this overzealous policing. I'm not really sure what the other options are, though. Quora? Other web communities that are specific to whatever topic you have questions about? It's a shame, because I otherwise really like Stack Exchange's layout and mechanics as a whole (as someone mostly Googling around for existing questions/answers).
  - pavel_lishin 13y ago
    > I'm not really sure what the other options are, though. Quora? There are various AskReddit clones, and various subreddits dedicated to culling the "best of". However, this is pretty hit or miss, and just searching for content is pretty hard.
    - Houshalter 13y ago
      Askreddit has become pretty much /r/tellMeStories. /r/explainlikeimfive has, unfortunately, become what you are looking for.
  - dionidium 13y ago
    Right. Stackoverflow is still the best option for dozens of reasons. I love it. But the deletionism is stupid. More than that: it's stupid religion. The people who think it is necessary never provide any evidence for its effectiveness. They claim it influences future questions. Again, I have never seen a single piece of evidence that this is true. It just feels true to them, so it's true. QED.
TacticalCoder 13y ago
Is it just me or is the top voted answer not an answer? Q: "Why should cows be colored in blue?" A: Because document ZOIU-123497 says cows should be colored in blue.
- sgustard 13y ago
  Quit stalling and turn in your damn blue cow sheets already.
rachelbythebay 13y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=markhacker https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=markhacker Also travelhacker and travelstacker. Probably more. Tagged URLs. See the /101?
guelo 13y ago
I used to be some kind of techno-optimist which is why I chose the software-based career path that I did. But now I'm realizing that governments and corporations are actually building The Matrix, and we are all getting plugged into it whether we want it or not. I'm having a crisis of conscience. Even things like the open source movement end up contributing to these scary bureaucracies that are destroying our freedoms. I fear for what will become of humanity over the next few decades.
loup-vaillant 13y ago
> 1.9. Coverings, hair, headdress, hats, scarfs, head bands, bandanas or facial ornamentation which obscure the face, are not permitted (except for religious […] reasons). I can't wait for someone to abuse this. I hear some tattoos tend to disrupt facial recognition…
- letstryagain 13y ago
  Get one of those temporary tattoos that fade away after a couple of weeks
kimonos 13y ago
Because smiling makes people’s faces less, rather than more, recognizable.

59 points by nsaparanoid 13y ago

TL:DR - Apparently, one of the reasons for it is so facial recognition software works better, other constraints are defined in ISO/IEC 19794.

bonemachine 13y ago

Because they don't everyone to know how happy you were the day you knew that, soon enough, you'd be leaving.

Stal3r 13y ago

This was in the news when it was announced that you couldn't smile in ID photos. I thought it was common knowledge.

Nanzikambe 13y ago

The reasoning is dumb, and the concept easily subject to abuse. If you're good at contorting your face for an extended period of time, including whilst you speak, do so for your passport photograph. Think Mr Bean or EmotionEric / http://emotioneric.com http://emotioneric.com Why would you do this? Well I did this for my passport for several reasons, foremost being I detest the idea of facial recognition, it's an invasion of my privacy and my right to digital anonymity. For the same reason I don't have a facebook page, ask friends never to tag me in images and generally avoid photographs. Secondly because passports are archaic hangovers for an era long gone. When I travel (and I do so a fair amount) I only need my ID card to do so and mine uses a picture of me, so old and of such bad quality it's practically useless. It's a small amusement, and when I've actually needed to use the passport, I've yet to meet a passport officer or customs officer who will actually ask "Do you really look like that all the time?" or crack up laughing. But I'm keeping hope alive.

ido 13y ago
When I travel (and I do so a fair amount) I only need my ID card How are you let across international borders with only ID? I was under the impression that is only possible under very specific circumstances (e.g. between some EU states). Specifically, I can't imagine you're are let in or out of the US (other than maybe to Canada and Mexico) with just an id...
- Nanzikambe 13y ago
  You can travel freely to any EU, aspiring EU or Schengen country without need for a passport, you just need your national ID card. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement - https://www.bfm.admin.ch//bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html https://www.bfm.admin.ch//bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-... I've no intention of ever travelling to the US or any nation with similar travel requirements purely because that'd require a bio-metric passport. I dislike photos as it is ...
  - avar 13y ago
    Note that some countries (e.g. Iceland) are in Schengen but have no accepted national ID card that isn't the passport, so de-facto you need your passport to travel, even within Schengen. I don't know if Iceland's the rare exception here or if this goes for some other countries as well.
    - GunlogAlm 13y ago
      > I don't know if Iceland's the rare exception here or if this goes for some other countries as well. If you mean exception as an EU country with no national ID scheme: the UK, Denmark, Ireland, and Norway also don't have national ID cards. If you meant a Schengen country with no national ID: Denmark and Norway are other Schengen countries with no national ID cards (Norway isn't in the EU but is in the EFTA).
  - teh_klev 13y ago
    Sadly the dream of passport-less travel in the EU is slowly being eroded by airlines demanding passports for photo ID. Although I'm a UK citizen I don't own a UK password, I refuse to pay for one when I have no desire to travel outside the EU (there's also political reasons, but I won't go into that here). Anyway, there are some destinations I can't fly to within the UK without a passport because certain operators such as Ryan Air will only accept a passport as photo ID, which is pretty dumb. FlyBe used to have this policy but I see they've recently relented and will now even let you board with just your senior citizen bus pass :)
ncarroll 13y ago
Oh. I haven't thought of emotioneric in the longest time. Thanks for the smile.
Houshalter 13y ago
>Well I did this for my passport for several reasons, foremost being I detest the idea of facial recognition, it's an invasion of my privacy and my right to digital anonymity. Better get rid of those humans born with the ability.
e12e 13y ago
How is an id card different from a passport? A passport is a national id booklet?

mrt0mat0 13y ago

So, if I smile while committing a crime, facial recognition software won't be able to identify me. Got it, Thanks!

danudey 13y ago
More like they can more easily match you with your face, or match one picture to another (e.g. if someone tries to request a passport with your picture, or request your passport with their picture).
dhughes 13y ago
Everyone make note of this day: the Riddler is born.
- brc 13y ago
  Er, don't you mean the Joker?
  - dhughes 13y ago
    Daaaaaaaaaaamnnn it! Fuck, I just made bash.org didn't I? :( Maybe it's only IRC, I can only hope.
TallGuyShort 13y ago
Similar to, "So, if I keep my cell phone on during take-off, I can interfere with the navigation system". edit: Wow - why all the downvotes? It's the same kind of policy. Making your weakness "not allowed" is not fixing the weakness.
operanotgoogle 13y ago
it might still be able to identify you but not in real time. throw in sunglasses and a hat and facial recognition should fail, at least that was still true in 2001 when John Cleese tested facial recognition in BBC's The Human Face series by David Attenborough.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

Back in the day when they just took the photo you gave them and laminated it into the passport, I wondered what would happen if you printed the picture using photo reactive ink. I used to have as a sample some ink that would break down in ultraviolet light and become transparent. The use case was things like printable visitor badges that after 24 hours of exposure to light would say "VOID" on them. Basically they had the word VOID on them, then white photosensitive ink was put over it, and the badge printer printed on top of that ink. So my question was if you created two photos, and then printed over one with another, then after a while the picture in your passport would be different. The challenge I never figured out was you could get this ink in black, or white, but I wasn't sure you could make a black and white print blending the inks that would pass muster. It would have to be opaque enough to cover the picture behind it. Sadly I had to file that idea under "probably won't ever be able to know one way or another." but it might make for an interesting plot mechanism if I get around to writing a thriller.

hydralist 13y ago

tl;dr anyone?

mark-r 13y ago
Facial recognition requires a closed mouth. Standards organizations are adopting rules that make facial recognition possible.
- Nanzikambe 13y ago
  This, I think the width of your mouth is a data-point which is stupid and exploitable, after all you can contort your mouth in a dozen ways without opening it or smiling (see my other post in this thread). And that doesn't even take into account the use of things like lipstick to make your mouth seem wider ...

diminoten 13y ago

Is anyone unsatisfied with the "it helps with facial recognition software" response? What part of facial recognition relies on the lack of a smile? I was hoping that would get explained here, and am disappointed that it wasn't. I think everyone assumes it's for facial recognition...

Crito 13y ago
If it were really for facial recognition, I wonder if they would ban passport pictures taken in the days after a wisdom tooth operation. Those can swell your lower face, pulling your mouth out more than usual. Hell, if facial recognition is so sensitive to changes in soft tissue like the location of the corners of your mouth, shape of your cheeks, or thickness of your lips, does gaining or losing a large amount of weight fuck it up? I would think that they focus more on the location of facial features that are set in stone^Wbone. On that note though, could you construct lenses that change where your eyes appear to be located?
alanbailward 13y ago
See my other answer, but the short version is it does make facial recognition software work better. I'm not sure if it's variations on the facial structure, or what, but my boss worked on the facial recognition software in the '01-'02 era, and it worked with more accuracy with no smiling.
username223 13y ago
> What part of facial recognition relies on the lack of a smile? If current facial recognition software can't handle smiles, then you just have to remember to plaster on a creepy politician-rictus-smile while walking through airports. I also wonder how some pols get passports...
brc 13y ago
It is for facial recognition software. I know nothing about the field, but my assumption would be that you need a plain base to work from. That way you start with a known value and you compare from the base to the image you're trying to match. If you had a smiling photo as the base, and you're trying to match a photo where the person is frowning, that must be that much harder to work out. Remember that smiling changes not on the mouth but the eyes as well. I would guess that eye shape is a key factor in making facial recognition work. For the record, I am favor of facial recognition for identity checks with passports. It means I can use the automated immigration processing queues, which are much, much faster than standing in a line waiting for a guy to ask you a couple of benign questions and stamp your passport.

dzhiurgis 13y ago

So if I smile daily and everywhere my face would be more difficult to recognise and track?

mandeepj 13y ago

You will not be smiling when you are getting interrogated at the airport security so to match your face 100% with your passport photo they don't want you to smile :-)

martingordon 13y ago

FWIW, I am smiling on my US passport issued in 2005 and haven't had any issues.

alanbailward 13y ago

I can't answer this on the site, but my boss claims that he was partially responsible for this. He worked with the company doing facial recognition software to hunting down kiddie porn makers, which was (I think) moved into terrorism detection (this is in the 2001-2002 timeframe). They couldn't get the facial recognition to work with enough accuracy with anything but a blank facial expression.

dionidium 13y ago

Is this a practical, answerable question based on an actual problem that you face? Are you deciding whether or not to do something based on answers to this question? It's an interesting question, but I don't see how it's in-scope for this stack exchange. Tangent: Oh, good god. I guess I should be heartened that it's not just programmers who think this way. What a useless sentiment this is. Stackexchange is like a super smart scientist uncle who has this one weird blind spot for homeopathy or something. It's so frustrating to see this sort of comment over and over.

gtaylor 13y ago
I wholeheartedly agree. I've seen some really good questions buried/closed prematurely because of this overzealous policing. I'm not really sure what the other options are, though. Quora? Other web communities that are specific to whatever topic you have questions about? It's a shame, because I otherwise really like Stack Exchange's layout and mechanics as a whole (as someone mostly Googling around for existing questions/answers).
- pavel_lishin 13y ago
  > I'm not really sure what the other options are, though. Quora? There are various AskReddit clones, and various subreddits dedicated to culling the "best of". However, this is pretty hit or miss, and just searching for content is pretty hard.
  - Houshalter 13y ago
    Askreddit has become pretty much /r/tellMeStories. /r/explainlikeimfive has, unfortunately, become what you are looking for.
- dionidium 13y ago
  Right. Stackoverflow is still the best option for dozens of reasons. I love it. But the deletionism is stupid. More than that: it's stupid religion. The people who think it is necessary never provide any evidence for its effectiveness. They claim it influences future questions. Again, I have never seen a single piece of evidence that this is true. It just feels true to them, so it's true. QED.

TacticalCoder 13y ago

Is it just me or is the top voted answer not an answer? Q: "Why should cows be colored in blue?" A: Because document ZOIU-123497 says cows should be colored in blue.

sgustard 13y ago
Quit stalling and turn in your damn blue cow sheets already.

rachelbythebay 13y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=markhacker https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=markhacker Also travelhacker and travelstacker. Probably more. Tagged URLs. See the /101?

guelo 13y ago

I used to be some kind of techno-optimist which is why I chose the software-based career path that I did. But now I'm realizing that governments and corporations are actually building The Matrix, and we are all getting plugged into it whether we want it or not. I'm having a crisis of conscience. Even things like the open source movement end up contributing to these scary bureaucracies that are destroying our freedoms. I fear for what will become of humanity over the next few decades.

loup-vaillant 13y ago

> 1.9. Coverings, hair, headdress, hats, scarfs, head bands, bandanas or facial ornamentation which obscure the face, are not permitted (except for religious […] reasons). I can't wait for someone to abuse this. I hear some tattoos tend to disrupt facial recognition…

letstryagain 13y ago
Get one of those temporary tattoos that fade away after a couple of weeks

kimonos 13y ago

Because smiling makes people’s faces less, rather than more, recognizable.