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Ask PG: Is HN Expired Link Eventual Fix Planned?

96 points by baldajan 13y ago

I believe the expired link issue came from using a new lisp feature, but I'm curious if there is any plans to fix it? It's a little annoying since I constantly pickup tabs that are a day old, and have to start from the beginning. Hopefully I'm not the only one on HN with that issue.

btbuildem 13y ago
I think it falls under "Not important enough to fix even though everyone complains about it all the time" -- luckily there exist browser extensions that fix what authors of this site couldn't. (CTRL-F for said extensions)
11thEarlOfMar 13y ago
No, you are not. It is annoying.
SamReidHughes 13y ago
What sort of data structure do you recommend they use to efficiently reconstruct older story orderings?
slashnull 13y ago
I was about to post about it. I would definitely like to see this one sorted out.
makecheck 13y ago
Although this is a significant problem, it’s probably better to use the bottom-of-page links: - “Bugs” (in this case, already seems to be known and talked about; see [1]). - “Feature Requests” for anything that isn’t a bug. [1] https://github.com/HackerNews/HN/issues/11 https://github.com/HackerNews/HN/issues/11
pchristensen 13y ago
They are continuations stored on the server (not a Lisp-specific feature). There is a limit on the number of continuations stored, which is why older ones come up as unknown or expired. This has been there since Day 1 and will probably never be changed. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=163696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=163696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2677469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2677469
- pg 13y ago
  Closures, not continuations.
  - elwell 13y ago
    Could you give a quick explanation or a link that explains how that is set up? (closures stored on server) Just curious.
    - wlievens 13y ago
      A closure is a function augmented with implicit references to the context in which it was created. In case of an upvote link it would hold references to the post you could upvote. That reference exists not in the URL but in the closure at the servers side. If you keep these objects in memory indefinitely, you'll run out of ram.
      - elwell 13y ago
        Oh, I was assuming some sort of custom implementation for doing that. If it's just hanging around in RAM, fair enough; can't see how that has scaled so well, but hey.
        wlievens 13y ago
        Well, a closure can't be more than a couple hundred bytes, I guess. If he wants to continue with that technique, I'd hack it like this: use reflection to crawl the closure, isolate the variables bound to the closure context, serialize those (the user id's, post id's, etc). Then the closure code, which will be one of only a few "templates", can be put into a global dictionary. The serialized state goes into the URL parameters. The closure is collected, and "reified" from the global dictionary and URL state once the user performs the action. I don't know if LISP's reflection can pull this off, but I'm pretty sure it's no biggie.
diminoten 13y ago
This site isn't actively developed, and hasn't been, as far as I know, since it was established in 2007. This is intentional. I forget the specific rationale, however. So no, to answer your question (though I'm not pg), it likely won't be fixed.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  I'm assuming the minimalism and hackish nature was deliberately chosen to weed out the lowest common denominator and cater only to the niche HN targets.
  - supersystem 13y ago
    That can't be right? Last time I heard they were all about inclusion by being a gateway.
- qbrass 13y ago
  The rationale is that the value provided by fixing the problems is less than the cost of doing the work. This particular problem isn't going to cause tons of people to leave, and fixing it isn't going to cause tons of people to join. Unless someone does the work for free, or manages to get a large portion of the current users to quit over the issue, there's no reason to expect it to be changed.
- pg 13y ago
  Actually we change things almost daily.
  - umanwizard 13y ago
    Any recent examples? (Just curious, not trying to debate you)
    - fblp 13y ago
      I'd guess it'd be under the hood tweaks related to building and maintaining the community (comments and stories)
ilaksh 13y ago
They are not going to make improvements to Hacker News. They have proven that. They don't have to fix it or make any improvements. They can run a very poorly performing site with no features and a horrible appearance, because they are entrenched, and they literally own quite a large portion of their userbase. Unfortunately no matter how many people invent software that does the same thing as Hacker News but works much better and offer it up for free, nothing will be done. The owner of the site has too much invested in its technology stack (Lisp) and its particular implementation and appearance. The improvements necessary probably require going back on some of those fundamentals, which is never going to happen, because they are too proud.
- kranner 13y ago
  > they literally own quite a large portion of their userbase. Not literally.
  - ilaksh 13y ago
    That's debatable, but we are talking about a matter of degrees. Wage-based employment is a moderate improvement upon slavery by direct force. The relationship between investors and startup founders is a moderate improvement upon that, but still has quite a few similarities with traditional slavery.
    - kranner 13y ago
      I pointed it out it because I believed it was exaggeration. To me, similarities don't cut it for 'literally'; it has to be identity.
      - jasonwocky 13y ago
        Not anymore. "Why editors are 'literally' changing the dictionary" - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23729570 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23729570
        13y ago
thekevan 13y ago
The word "fix" assumes it is a problem. You load a page and after a certain amount of time, the next page is expired. I am not saying, "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" I'm just saying that's how it works.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  It is a problem.
vl 13y ago
For practical solution: Install "Hacker News Enhancement Suite" Chrome extension, it solves this and godzillion other problems.
- belluchan 13y ago
  Wow that is so much nicer. Thank you for suggesting this!
- sikhnerd 13y ago
  I loved this extension, and is really the only thing I'm missing now that I've moved back to Firefox :(
pg 13y ago
It's not a single thing. There are multiple places that use dynamically-generated links. They make the source very simple. I've gradually replaced them in the most common situations. Replacing more is not in my top 10 priorities for things to fix. The reason is that it's not really what users want. What people come here for is good stories and comments. I doubt we have ever lost a single user over expired links. Whereas stupid or uncivil comment threads have probably cost us lots of users, and indeed, some of the ones I'd least like to lose. So that's the sort of issue I spend time thinking about. Incidentally, for those of you working on startups, this is a good example of why making something people want is not a simple matter of making what they say they want.
- credo 13y ago
  >>The reason is that it's not really what users want. What people come here for is good stories and comments. I doubt we have ever lost a single user over expired links. Yes, you probably haven't lost any users over expired links However, I think you have inconvenienced a lot of users through the expired links. Sometimes, I think it is good to spend a little bit of effort on helping a large number of users. I'm assuming among readers (who attempt to go past page-1), an overwhelming majority has hit this problem multiple times (and lost time because of this problem)
  - ghshephard 13y ago
    I've been a user for 5+ years, for more hours a day than I would care to admit, and have never run into an expired-link problem that couldn't be resolved with a BackButton, copy+paste. Honestly, it gives HN a bit of charm, and it's never ever really bothered me.
  - SiVal 13y ago
    Amen. What a nuisance. You can keep clicking the next page button to see what other stories there are until you actually read one, after which the next page button will fail, and you'll have to start over again. What's the point of even having more than about three pages? The only way to reach those pages is to keep clicking next while carefully avoiding the temptation to read anything along the way, lest you get sent back to Level 1. I'm not buying the argument that if HN has good stories and comments people will keep coming back and if they come back, it means they want a next page button that fails. A doesn't imply B. If frequent expiration is to remain a feature, would it be possible to have a preference setting allowing us to put the first four pages or so on our front page? Then we could read whatever looks most interesting among the first 120 items instead of the first 30 before we get that expired next button we supposedly don't mind.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
codex 13y ago
Visible signs of entropy considered harmful: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
jijojv 13y ago
From a UI perspective is it too much to ask that instead of showing a FU expired message, just client side redirect the user back to the homepage - should be trivial to implement. On a desktop it doesn't save much due to bookmarks bar but on mobile it saves a lot of effort on starting over.
IvyMike 13y ago
I'd just like it if the "expire links page" said "Expired link, sorry. Here is a link to a fresh top page"
dserban 13y ago
The issue at hand never annoyed me too much. It can probably be fixed with a browser extension (I'm using HN Enhancement Suite, maybe contact the author and start a discussion?)
DanBC 13y ago
It is a useful feature, not a bug. People need to refresh the thread before they respond to ot, especially if it is a day old. This ensures they have an uptodate version of the thread and allows them ro see if anyone has already made their point. People clicking next to read past the first page is good. Open any comment pages you want to read in new tabs, and refresh those tabs just before you comment. I strongly agree that there are other problems with HN that need fixing.
dded 13y ago
One of the worst things about expiring links is that they punish you for taking the time to read articles and long discussions. If I'm just skimming through, there's no problem with expiring links.
wglb 13y ago
expired link issue came from using a new lisp feature I don't think this is the case. This fix would have a low priority on my list. I would rather have work done on improving the quality of comments and unfortunate high ranking of middlebrow comments.

asveikau 13y ago

I upvoted you because I like seeing people who go against the grain here, who hold combative viewpoints and are willing to be blunt about faults, regardless of whether or not I agree. However, after seeing this: > ... because they are entrenched, and they literally own quite a large portion of their userbase. > Unfortunately no matter how many people invent software that does the same thing as Hacker News but works much better and offer it up for free, nothing will be done. ... I have to say, if you are disappointed, have you thought about testing this theory? This website has not been around forever. It isn't the first of its kind either. I'm probably not the only one here who came to this site after having frequented a bunch of others that were essentially the same thing. So I don't expect it to be the last one, either. If someone has the interest and the skill set, I say, please do make this. Worst case you waste a few weekends or something.

ilaksh 13y ago
There are a number of Hacker News clones, i.e. people got fed up and even went ahead and figured out how to mirror the Hacker News content. Far as I know very few if any gained any popularity, but its not because they weren't better.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- sehr 13y ago
  I quite enjoy lobste.rs. Despite the lack of discussion, the majority of the topics posted are interesting and turn over pretty fast (in comparison to some of the other replacements).
  - tomcam 13y ago
    Thank you for pointing out lobste.rs. I like it. Can you issue me an invite?
    - sehr 13y ago
      Of course, email me at creamapps@gmail.com
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
kyro 13y ago
>people who go against the grain here, who hold combative viewpoints and are willing to be blunt ie assholes
- sehr 13y ago
  as opposed to yes men, it's somewhat of an improvement.
  - kyro 13y ago
    There's also this whole middle-ground of tact and civility and stuff.
    - asveikau 13y ago
      There's a place for those things. I also think it's important that you don't get overly consumed by some frivolous notion of those concepts, prioritizing it above honesty, authenticity, and everything else. To that end I often feel it's refreshing when people say something that is not a majority opinion on this site, and don't hold back.
- asveikau 13y ago
  If that's the name for what I described then please call me that. Not only in the fan club but also a member.
mercurial 13y ago
Going against the grain ( eg, the prevalent PG / Musk worship) is fine. Feelings of entitlement, less so.
grrowl 13y ago
I even suspect Hacker News isn't that fussed if most of its community moves elsewhere. The core community (that it was built for) will stay, and the postings will become more focussed on what the core community finds, reads, and is interested in.

pjungwir 13y ago

> I think you have inconvenienced a lot of users through the expired links. I suspect that fixing expired links would improve HN's front-page story quality. I seem to recall patio11 or tptacek once saying if you really want to help out HN, you should sit on the New page and upvote stories. That's too much of a pain for me, but if I could get to pages 2-4 without friction, I'd see more non-front-page stories I could upvote. This would help good stories make it to the front page or stay there longer. So perhaps making things easier for users would also help HN. It may even make it easier for content-rich stories to compete against link-baity ones. What if fixing expired links kept HN from becoming like Reddit?

gus_massa 13y ago
Fixing the New-page should be much easier than fixing the Front-page. In the New-page you only must remember the last index and the last submission shown, so https://news.ycombinator.com/newest?count=60&id=777777 https://news.ycombinator.com/newest?count=60&id=777777 should work, because they don’t exchange order. The Front-page is much more difficult because you must remember all the shown submissions, because they change of order in time.
- pjungwir 13y ago
  Yes, but I'm not saying they should fix the New page. The New page has too many garbage submissions for me to want to spend time there. But if they fixed pages 2-4 behind the front page, I would visit those pages. Those pages have more signal-to-noise than the New page, so I want to read them. And if those pages were getting upvotes, maybe their stories would make it to the front page.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    I click more. I find the stories that I am interested in. I open the submission in a new tab and the comments in a new tab. I repeat this until I get to page 4. I read an article. I upvote it if needed. I read the comments page. I then refresh the page before making any comments. Once i've finished reading and voting and commenting i close the pages and move to the next article.
  - gus_massa 13y ago
    I use a method similar to the described by DanBC, but I open the comment page in a new tab and I immediately open the submission from that tab, because it’s easier to hit the back button than to remember where each story came from. Fixing the new page is relatively easy, and it could free more closures to the other pages, so it increase the time that the links live before expiring. I also sometimes use the “filtered 2+ new page”: http://hnapp.com/filter/d3a308f2ac9a071c0bf174e0c1a8fd22 http://hnapp.com/filter/d3a308f2ac9a071c0bf174e0c1a8fd22 , i.e. someone else thought that it is interesting. It’s not so painful and it’s also good for days where a single new saturate the front page.

CamperBob2 13y ago

The reason is that it's not really what users want Yeah, actually, it is. Seriously. Nothing makes "hackers" look worse than a hack that doesn't work.

pg 13y ago
The true hacker solves the right problem. Expired links are just the visible problem. The real problems are more subtle: users voting up fluff posts, nastiness in comment threads...
- computerslol 13y ago
  My main problem with the "More" button is that it doesn't always give you more. I suggest a text change on the anchor tag to "More, if you're quick about it", and the error message to "You weren't quick enough." This way I can only blame myself when pressing the button doesn't work as expected.
- codex 13y ago
  Do you really think you can't solve both problems, or that fixing links hurts your ability to solve bigger problems? It's $500 to a contractor. You can even have someone else find the contractor. This smells fishy. I suspect the fix will result in a large change to the code base and you want to always own/understand the code for some reason. So if you can't fix it yourself, nobody is allowed to, either. That's fine--just admit it's your baby and you don't want to let it go.
  - wlievens 13y ago
    I guess it's also because of the technical elegance of using closurees for page actions. It's hard to admit that a technique that feels elegant and expressive fundamentally doesn't scale.
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      That's part of being a mature developer. We've all stood stubbornly by a piece of inappropriate code that we want to use because it's so clean and elegant, but most of us have gotten past that stage of ego development by the second or third year of school or professional life. It goes without saying that Paul Graham has long since transcended that level. So, the only answer that fits all of the parameters is that he's trolling us.
      - wlievens 13y ago
        Or that it's not his priority - that's the stated reason.
        CamperBob2 13y ago
        Not buying it. Priority or not, who leaves a forehead-slapper like that in their code for several years?
  - read 13y ago
    You're not far off to assume it hijacks your thinking process and steers it to the unimportant. The change to the code base would be easy. You can increase the expiration timeout or keep around more closures. It would come at the expense of using more computer hardware, which is an elegant technique of scaling: you free your human hardware to work on more important things.
- DanBC 13y ago
  When a fluff post gets posted some users flag it and some users upvote it. Is there anyway to penalise the people upvoting a fluff link? Mods have a 'fluff link' flag, and using that applies some karma loss to everyone who upvoted the post and puts a notice on their user page? (This is an ugly kludge. It's meant as a thought experiment rather than a serious implementation idea). I have made some comments on HN which should have been heavily downvoted but which got no downvotes or even upvotes. I have no idea how this can be fixed. Some people on HN have an aversion to down voting and flagging and will only use these tools for the most egrarious examples of bad posts. It would be good if people accepted getting and giving downvotes as a useful tool in running the site. There's another problem with people responding to people who are effectively trolls rather than ignoring or downvoting those posts. I know there are few moderators with very little time. More mods is not the answer, but perhaps 'big downvotes' for those mods would help. Applying a -5 or -10 downvote to people posting aggressive dumb comments would help set tone. Perhaps having links to all the guidelines (including the links provided to new users) under the submission box would be useful?
- atesti 13y ago
  If one clicks next to go beyond the first page repeatedly, there is effectively a timeout how much time can be spend until the link expires and one has to start from the beginning. I think this makes it more tempting to upvote something just after looking at the headline instead of after reading it, because one has to remember so much or use so many tabs or bear with going back to the front page and clicking next again. I have no idea about everone's behaviour, but maybe expired links in the end also affect something like users voting up fluff posts?
- myzerox 13y ago
  There is so much more educational value in this conversation than just people saying "serve your users but question what they say they want", as it is right in the action - with all its nuances. Great lesson on prioritization!