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Come on. Do you guys have any scientific evidence to support this kind of claim, i.e. learn to code improves your thinking ability in general? Don't treat your

by xname 13y ago

Come on. Do you guys have any scientific evidence to support this kind of claim, i.e. learn to code improves your thinking ability in general? Don't treat your conventional assumption as a fact, this is a sign of weakness in your thinking. Even if the claim is true, how does it compare to other subjects? Say, accounting, does learning accounting also improves thinking ability in general? Does accounting also provide thinking tools can be transferred to general problem solving strategies? How much advantage does coding have? If there is such advantage, does it worth for students from accounting to learn to code? You see, this is not a simple issue.

Crito 13y ago
Programmers think that learning to code makes you a more rounded person. Painters think that learning to paint makes you a more rounded person. Carpenters think that learning carpentry makes you a more rounded person. If this were one hundred years ago, we'd all be bleating on about how many cars are suddenly popping up, and how all of our children need to become car mechanics (to become rich? to achieve enlightened? to secure our nation's position in emerging world of automation? you decide!). [Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer]
- kbenson 13y ago
  [Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer] As someone whose thought process seems to have gone in a very similar place here[1], I'm interesting why, if you are up for sharing? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317
  - Crito 13y ago
    Well, I'm dissatisfied for a number of reasons, some that I am still working on figuring out, but the gist of it seems to be that I chose this career path because I knew I was good at it, knew I could get through school as a CS major, and knew I could get a job in it. Pretty much every reason besides "I thought I would enjoy doing it". Seeing other people push for people to enter the industry for the money and/or jobs, instead of satisfying a passion for the work, has me slightly... annoyed. Annoyed is a good word for it. (I don't want anybody to worry about me; I am currently working on re-adjusting my work/life balance to rein in on this dissatisfaction.) As for cynical... I don't buy into a lot of the more "mystic" ideas of coding that many programmers seem to have. Sure, there is a lot of insight to be had when you study computer science. For example, learning about computability and the Church–Turing–Deutsch principle literally changed my outlook on life; I would not be the same person that I am today if I had not studied computer science... ...but I do not think that computer science is in any way special in this regard. My non-CS peers in university grew in their own personal ways as well. They didn't miss out on anything that I had any more than I missed out on things that they had. That I think, is what many programmers don't understand. They lack exposure to other perspectives, and therefore mistake their own path through life as the obviously correct or superior path.
    - kbenson 13y ago
      Pretty much every reason besides "I thought I would enjoy doing it". That's a shame. I think I've been lucky enough to move between different focuses (between sysadmin and programming multiple times) enough that I never got too bored or dissatisfied with any one. Seeing other people push for people to enter the industry for the money and/or jobs, instead of satisfying a passion for the work, has me slightly... annoyed. Annoyed is a good word for it. I can relate. I remember while in college circa 2002 thinking that the number of CS students was artificially inflated by people who made decisions during the dot-com boom. People that had no real aptitude for the subject, had no passion for the subject, or both. I understand that's going to happen in any major, but when it felt like upwards of 60% of my peers weren't interested, and I couldn't help feeling they would have been better served by studying something they actually cared for. ...but I do not think that computer science is in any way special in this regard. My non-CS peers in university grew in their own personal ways as well. They didn't miss out on anything that I had any more than I missed out on things that they had. I'm routinely disappointed I haven't found more time to apply towards other disciplines or areas of study (this isn't new, I used to want to go back for a second major someday. I no longer necessarily view that as the best route for further advancement though), especially in reading comments here from some people that truly have some deep experience in different areas. That I think, is what many programmers don't understand. They lack exposure to other perspectives, and therefore mistake their own path through life as the obviously correct or superior path. I think that's correct, but I also think it's a matter of people incorrectly attributing value to programming based on positive outcomes they've experienced after learning to program. Learning to read doesn't make me smarter, per se, but it is a very useful tool in allowing me to learn and explore certain ideas. I think programming is similar (although on a lesser scale). It's a good tool for examining certain types of ideas which may provide great benefit, but it's not a causal relationship.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  > If this were one hundred years ago, we'd all be bleating on about how many cars are suddenly popping up, and how all of our children need to become car mechanics Car mechanics? No. Mechanical and electrical engineers...definitely.
  - Crito 13y ago
    No, car mechanics. The one that seems easily obtainable. Right now we are pushing for programmers. Not electrical engineers, not physicists. We aren't pushing people to go into materials tech or telecom. Not even industrial design. All of those things are jam-packed into the consumer devices that are now surrounding us and fueling this craze... but programmer is the one that has been picked. Programmer is the one that the proponents of this movement think can be picked up without years of intensive schooling. Coding is the obtainable saviour vocation for the unwashed masses.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Sys admins are to programmers what auto mechanics are to mechanical engineers. We are pushing people into engineering as much as CSE. At my old school, the CS program is so over subscribed that this happens naturally. Industrial design is incredibly oversubscribed and always has been (the sexiest design major), if you want to do design these days, interaction is a better bet. Of course, a programmer is just as likely to have a physics, math, engineering, or even music degree as they are a computer science one.
technomancy 13y ago
> Do you guys have any scientific evidence to support this kind of claim, i.e. learn to code improves your thinking ability in general? If you're actually interested in this, Papert's book Mindstorms, which is cited in the post, lists many reasons why this might be the case. The most obvious are that computers interpret everything literally, so when you express your ideas you're forced to do so in a way that totally lacks ambiguity. He also talks about how in a classroom setting, students are usually trained to react to "wrong answers" by wincing, moving on, and forgetting it happened, whereas in programming it's obvious that no one ever gets things right on the first try--debugging is necessary for programming, and debugging teaches students to think in terms of "how can this be improved" rather than the right/wrong of traditional schoolwork. There's tons more in the book, but most of it can be summed up in that programming teaches meta-cognition and forces you to consider questions of epistemology.
- xname 13y ago
  Those are plausible reasons/theories for the claim, but not scientific evidence. In social science, it is not uncommon that plausible assumptions fail to obtain direct support from data.

by xname 13y ago

Crito 13y ago

Programmers think that learning to code makes you a more rounded person. Painters think that learning to paint makes you a more rounded person. Carpenters think that learning carpentry makes you a more rounded person. If this were one hundred years ago, we'd all be bleating on about how many cars are suddenly popping up, and how all of our children need to become car mechanics (to become rich? to achieve enlightened? to secure our nation's position in emerging world of automation? you decide!). [Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer]

kbenson 13y ago
[Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer] As someone whose thought process seems to have gone in a very similar place here[1], I'm interesting why, if you are up for sharing? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317
- Crito 13y ago
  Well, I'm dissatisfied for a number of reasons, some that I am still working on figuring out, but the gist of it seems to be that I chose this career path because I knew I was good at it, knew I could get through school as a CS major, and knew I could get a job in it. Pretty much every reason besides "I thought I would enjoy doing it". Seeing other people push for people to enter the industry for the money and/or jobs, instead of satisfying a passion for the work, has me slightly... annoyed. Annoyed is a good word for it. (I don't want anybody to worry about me; I am currently working on re-adjusting my work/life balance to rein in on this dissatisfaction.) As for cynical... I don't buy into a lot of the more "mystic" ideas of coding that many programmers seem to have. Sure, there is a lot of insight to be had when you study computer science. For example, learning about computability and the Church–Turing–Deutsch principle literally changed my outlook on life; I would not be the same person that I am today if I had not studied computer science... ...but I do not think that computer science is in any way special in this regard. My non-CS peers in university grew in their own personal ways as well. They didn't miss out on anything that I had any more than I missed out on things that they had. That I think, is what many programmers don't understand. They lack exposure to other perspectives, and therefore mistake their own path through life as the obviously correct or superior path.
  - kbenson 13y ago
    Pretty much every reason besides "I thought I would enjoy doing it". That's a shame. I think I've been lucky enough to move between different focuses (between sysadmin and programming multiple times) enough that I never got too bored or dissatisfied with any one. Seeing other people push for people to enter the industry for the money and/or jobs, instead of satisfying a passion for the work, has me slightly... annoyed. Annoyed is a good word for it. I can relate. I remember while in college circa 2002 thinking that the number of CS students was artificially inflated by people who made decisions during the dot-com boom. People that had no real aptitude for the subject, had no passion for the subject, or both. I understand that's going to happen in any major, but when it felt like upwards of 60% of my peers weren't interested, and I couldn't help feeling they would have been better served by studying something they actually cared for. ...but I do not think that computer science is in any way special in this regard. My non-CS peers in university grew in their own personal ways as well. They didn't miss out on anything that I had any more than I missed out on things that they had. I'm routinely disappointed I haven't found more time to apply towards other disciplines or areas of study (this isn't new, I used to want to go back for a second major someday. I no longer necessarily view that as the best route for further advancement though), especially in reading comments here from some people that truly have some deep experience in different areas. That I think, is what many programmers don't understand. They lack exposure to other perspectives, and therefore mistake their own path through life as the obviously correct or superior path. I think that's correct, but I also think it's a matter of people incorrectly attributing value to programming based on positive outcomes they've experienced after learning to program. Learning to read doesn't make me smarter, per se, but it is a very useful tool in allowing me to learn and explore certain ideas. I think programming is similar (although on a lesser scale). It's a good tool for examining certain types of ideas which may provide great benefit, but it's not a causal relationship.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
> If this were one hundred years ago, we'd all be bleating on about how many cars are suddenly popping up, and how all of our children need to become car mechanics Car mechanics? No. Mechanical and electrical engineers...definitely.
- Crito 13y ago
  No, car mechanics. The one that seems easily obtainable. Right now we are pushing for programmers. Not electrical engineers, not physicists. We aren't pushing people to go into materials tech or telecom. Not even industrial design. All of those things are jam-packed into the consumer devices that are now surrounding us and fueling this craze... but programmer is the one that has been picked. Programmer is the one that the proponents of this movement think can be picked up without years of intensive schooling. Coding is the obtainable saviour vocation for the unwashed masses.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Sys admins are to programmers what auto mechanics are to mechanical engineers. We are pushing people into engineering as much as CSE. At my old school, the CS program is so over subscribed that this happens naturally. Industrial design is incredibly oversubscribed and always has been (the sexiest design major), if you want to do design these days, interaction is a better bet. Of course, a programmer is just as likely to have a physics, math, engineering, or even music degree as they are a computer science one.

technomancy 13y ago

> Do you guys have any scientific evidence to support this kind of claim, i.e. learn to code improves your thinking ability in general? If you're actually interested in this, Papert's book Mindstorms, which is cited in the post, lists many reasons why this might be the case. The most obvious are that computers interpret everything literally, so when you express your ideas you're forced to do so in a way that totally lacks ambiguity. He also talks about how in a classroom setting, students are usually trained to react to "wrong answers" by wincing, moving on, and forgetting it happened, whereas in programming it's obvious that no one ever gets things right on the first try--debugging is necessary for programming, and debugging teaches students to think in terms of "how can this be improved" rather than the right/wrong of traditional schoolwork. There's tons more in the book, but most of it can be summed up in that programming teaches meta-cognition and forces you to consider questions of epistemology.

xname 13y ago
Those are plausible reasons/theories for the claim, but not scientific evidence. In social science, it is not uncommon that plausible assumptions fail to obtain direct support from data.