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> This is the depth of thought that powers nationwide policy decisions. But hey, congratulations to musician and entertainer will.i.am for at least having an ed

> This is the depth of thought that powers nationwide policy decisions. But hey, congratulations to musician and entertainer will.i.am for at least having an educational philosophy that’s not completely unreasonable or horrifying. Quite frankly I'm shocked and confused by some of the negativity I've seen expressed (including those from the HN community) towards code.org, and the idea of programming as a basic literacy in general. It seems like these people will do almost anything to find something about this idea to pick on, ridicule, discredit, and otherwise attack. Seriously, last time this came up on HN the majority of the discussion was about how horrible it is that this movement uses the phrase "learn to code" rather than "learn to program". Now it's ad hominem attacks against musicians/artists advocating literacy and education -- and what do those attacks say? "Congratulations [...] for having an educational philosophy that's not completely unreasonable and horrifying." What a disgusting backhanded "compliment". Is there something about being a musician or artist that disallows one from having a valid intellectual opinion taken for its own sake, without being patronized? "Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible -- like a quaint little animal trying to imitate us true intellectuals up here in our high tower of superiority." I exaggerate, but this is basically the elitist mentality I perceive behind the actual quote. To me, this comes off as a desperate attempt to defame this movement because it threatens to demote the status of basic technology roles from "elite magic" to "basic literacy" -- and to some people, apparently that's not an amazing social good, but a terrifying prospect of power loss. Am I way off base here in perceiving this? To address the main point: So what if some person never intended to claim that learning to program makes you smarter. Coding is becoming more popular, more socially acceptable, and viewed more positively not only as a career choice but as a basic literacy that will be extremely important in the future (which is true). That's a good thing.

hackaflocka 13y ago
It's the same crowd that wants Linux server administration to be obtuse (they want to preserve their power).
dkuntz2 13y ago
I personally think that the whole "learn to code" meme is a little silly, but I also think that everyone should be exposed to programming at least once. I think that things like code.org are pretty cool, but the tone most of those projects use is a little off putting to me. They all just sound like "you must learn to code or you're a dinosaur". I don't think that's true, but I also don't think people should be as averse to programming as they are. Or computers for that matter. What's more important in my mind is gleaning a little bit about how computers work. Nothing overly complicated like how a processor or memory work, but that every program is basically just a set of logic routines. The easiest way to do that is probably by teaching a little programming (or logical thinking).
amasad 13y ago
I think the problem here is that programmers don't agree with the way this is being marketed. All the talk about how programming will make you rich and it's so easy is a bit superficial. Personally, I understand that this is the most effective way to carry out this campaign and get the policy makers and the laymen to buy in.
- yapcguy 13y ago
  In many countries, a professional is considered to be a banker, lawyer or a doctor. Programmers are not given the same respect. Now with the importance of technology in our day-to-day lives, there is a chance for programmers and those working in IT to be considered as professionals, as equals. Instead we have people within the industry running around describing themselves as 'geeks' and 'nerds' and 'hackers'. Meanwhile those outside the industry claim that programming is easy, anyone can do it, all you need is a computer and a couple of lessons. You would not find people saying the same thing about doctors or lawyers, and you would not find doctors or lawyers denigrating themselves.
  - Yhippa 13y ago
    This is really starting to sound like the dotcom era where anybody who wrote a line of HTML could say that they were a software developer.
    - yapcguy 13y ago
      It's worse. Apparently you can take a random homeless person, give them a few lessons, and hey presto you have an app maker.
      - TeMPOraL 13y ago
        Well, 99% of apps don't do anything useful - they're either for killing time or an invention of marketing department hell-bent on selling you more of the stuff you don't need. So I'm not surprised that it's not difficult to build something that can compete in this market.
mkremins 13y ago
> "Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible -- like a quaint little animal trying to imitate us true intellectuals up here in our high tower of superiority." I exaggerate, but this is basically the elitist mentality I perceive behind the actual quote. Am I way off base here? I get the impression that this comment has more to do with contrasting will.i.am's statement with the other statements on code.org for effect than it has to do with specifically putting down will.i.am. With this comment, the linked piece seems to be implying that the statements made by Zuckerberg, Clinton et al are inspired by wrongheaded beliefs about the purpose of education, and that only will.i.am's statement comes anywhere close to hitting the right tone. I read this comment as genuinely complimentary, albeit weak. As I read it, Bret Victor's critique of code.org is more nuanced than the usual complaints: it stems from a disagreement with code.org's implicit claim that programming should be taught in schools because programming is currently a high-value skill, in terms of the amount of money you can earn by doing it professionally. He seems to think that school shouldn't be primarily about training people to be "useful" to employers or the government in the short term. I'm somewhat inclined to agree. > To me, this comes off as a desperate attempt to defame this movement because it threatens to demote the status of basic technology roles from "elite magic" to "basic literacy" -- and to some people, apparently that's not an amazing social good, but a terrifying prospect of power loss. Am I way off base here in perceiving this? In the context of Victor's body of work (which is focused more or less entirely on making the incredible power of computers more accessible to more people), I have a hard time believing that any such motivation underlies the linked piece. While I think there definitely exists such a motivation in other criticisms of the learn-to-code meme, I don't think it has much to do with Victor's critiques.
- d23 13y ago
  > With this comment, the linked piece seems to be implying that the statements made by Zuckerberg, Clinton et al are inspired by wrongheaded beliefs about the purpose of education, and that only will.i.am's statement comes anywhere close to hitting the right tone. I read this comment as genuinely complimentary, albeit weak. Fair enough, but is Gates's claim that "learning to write programs stretches your mind" really that far off or that much worse? Or that "an understanding of computer science is becoming increasing essentially in today's world"? Maybe it's a trivial point, but is it as offensive as this link makes it out to be?
kyberias 13y ago
Ad hominem? Really, where?
npc 13y ago
>Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible I think it's less to do with him being a musician/artist than with him being will.i.am, notorious "My Humps" backup singer. If it had been Thom Yorke or Getty Lee or someone then I think they'd probably have been (reasonably or not) treated with a little more respect.
- kunai 13y ago
  Thom's AMA would suggest otherwise. I love Radiohead, but... come on.
  - mjolk 13y ago
    What's an AMA? Did he speak about coding and its role in society?
    - kunai 13y ago
      No, I meant the respect part. Thom is known for his cryptic ambiguity and often surreal sentence formation, so it's doubtful his opinion would be held in higher regard than anyone else's.
throwawyname 13y ago
I'm all for making Computer Science education more accessible, but this code.org initiative and its "coding is easy!" and "everyone should learn to code!" and "you only need basic addition and subtraction" BS is really insulting to people who've actually put in the difficult effort and long hours of study and practice it takes to become a professional: http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html All Zuckerberg, Gates and the other Valley backers of code.org want is more code monkeys who are just competent enough to glue together stuff they don't fully understand and couldn't implement if asked to, so they can drive down the wages of actual, competent programmers. It's the same reason they support immigration reform. And why the push to flood the market with "coders," when health care, not software, is bankrupting us as a country? Why isn't there a "everyone should learn medicine" initiative? Isn't your health important to you? Obviously because it would be illegal, and US doctors (the highest paid in the world) would never allow it.
- yapcguy 13y ago
  >Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Dropbox CEO Drew Houston doled out awards on Thursday night to online applications built by young immigrants during a 25-hour marathon coding session at LinkedIn’s headquarters. The “hackathon” event sponsored by Zuckerberg’s political advocacy group, FWD.us, brought together a group of 20 young tech-savvy immigrants who came to the United States illegally with their families as children and are not citizens. Coders of the winning apps received prizes such as Microsoft Surface tablets, Cisco Webcams, Facebook apparel and free storage space from Dropbox. The aim of FWD.us's hackathon is to pressure the House to break its logjam on immigration legislation by highlighting the technical talents of young immigrants who are living in the country illegally -- often called “Dreamers” in relation to the Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors (Dream) Act — like the coders participating in the event. http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/191176-zuckerberg-awards-dreamers-for-immigration-lobbying-aps http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/191176-z...
- NAFV_P 13y ago
  > I'm all for making Computer Science education more accessible, but this code.org initiative and its "coding is easy!" and "everyone should learn to code!" and "you only need basic addition and subtraction" BS is really insulting to people who've actually put in the difficult effort and long hours of study and practice it takes to become a professional: http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html Several of my friends work in IT, and pull in decent salaries. I don't think any one of them has been writing code on a continual basis for ten years. In the UK the MCITP course costs about £1500 - £2000, takes about a year to complete and you can land a decent job with it. The main reason I don't have an MCITP is because I can't afford one, I need to get a job to pull in the necessary funds. I can't get a job because I'm overqualified for a lot of them, or I can't afford the courses if I'm underqualified. If I ask a question about computing, I often get the response: "Visit this website". If someone asks me a question about computing and I can sort of answer it, I will try and explain it to the best of my ability. It was only around two years ago I was able to get my own computer. I had been trying to get one for around 5 - 6 years, but couldn't due to lack of funds. Meanwhile someone at the job centre says I should stick to what I am capable of. Said someone believes I am barely capable of even filling out an agreement form, so it is completed for me without my permission. I noticed around six or seven spelling and grammatical errors. Oh, did I mention that on the rare occasion I do manage to get a full time minimum wage job, it is often accompanied with abusive behaviour. By abusive behaviour I mean being shouted and sworn at (phrases include "fuck off", "you fucking idiot", "cunting", "that kid is fucking thick as two short planks", "stay out of my way or I'll fucking throw it at ya", "you trying to do my fucking job?"). I'm sorry, but I don't see what is particularly insulting about "code.org", I didn't notice swearing or abusive/threatening comments on the site. Perhaps my standards are different to yours. EDIT: messed up the formatting, again.
sas 13y ago
I think it's highly likely that Bret is completely unaware of how much time will.i.am spends at MIT with Prof. Patrick Winston, and how deeply he cares about technology. In fact, I would bet that will.i.am spends more time in dialogue with people at CSAIL then Bret does. http://sliceofmit.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/friend2.jpg http://sliceofmit.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/friend2.jpg
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Considering Bret Victor lives on the west coast and CSAIL is on the east coast...this isn't too hard to believe. Its not like even most CS PL academics are spending time in dialogue with people from CSAIL.
nardi 13y ago
If you were aware of Bret's previous work, then you would know that he's got nothing against code.org specifically. He's addressing the culture. He's been talking about Mindstorms and programming literacy since before code.org existed. He totally agrees that people should learn programming, and he has no problem with the word "code." He simply disagrees with the motivation—he thinks (and I agree) that people should learn to program because it helps people think, and helps people learn. Not because programming is profitable. Also, you completely misunderstood the bit about will.i.am. It was a compliment, not an insult. He was saying that will.i.am has a better opinion on programming, as a musician, than all of these other people who should know better (public policy makers and programmers).
- oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
  I'm interested: what is it about the wrd 'code' that you think people don't like? Do you think such people are generally coming from an elitist view, or just a pedantic one?
- neilk 13y ago
  > he thinks (and I agree) that people should learn to program because it helps people think, and helps people learn. Read it again. He specifically called that out as a terrible idea. Bret believes in Seymour Papert's vision, where coding is not an end in itself, but a vessel for experiential learning about important ideas in mathematics and other fields.
  - nardi 13y ago
    I think you misunderstood me. When I said "helps people think/learn", I meant by USING programming, not by being TREATED with programming. This is the same distinction Bret is trying to make.
mambodog 13y ago
"Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible -- like a quaint little animal trying to imitate us true intellectuals up here in our high tower of superiority." I exaggerate, but this is basically the elitist mentality I perceive behind the actual quote. Put down those quote marks until you've learned how to use them properly. We've seen the damage that can do in pg's recent and unfortunate tarring with the 'sexist' brush.
- yen223 13y ago
  > "Put down those quote marks until you've learned how to use them properly." Speaking of elitist mentality...
- callum85 13y ago
  You're wrong to imply that quote marks should never be used this way. You knew that the quote-marked text was just a rhetorical paraphrasing to make a point, and so would any reasonable person. The context makes it completely obvious that it's not an actual quotation.
- rfnslyr 13y ago
  I'm either being whooshed real hard or you're serious.
OverlordXenu 13y ago
There's failure in logic that comes from thinking that code.org's public-facing copy is the same as their policy. Has anyone bothered to read the policy? Does it say the same "coding = make smarter" thing? Though I guess it isn't necessarily stupid to attack this kind of normalization, but I certainly don't think people will be worse off if they learn the basics of CS and a programming language. At the very least it gives them another tool with which they can solve problems. I guess the danger comes from going so "EVERYONE MUST LEARN CODE HOW TO DO" crazy that it comes at the expense of other education endeavors, instead of an enrichment on top of what already exists.
jowiar 13y ago
I read the will.i.am bit differently, in that of all the quotes out there, his is the only one that is not unreasonable and focuses on the student, in comparison to the assorted political and business folks who are saying "learn to code because we want to use you". In my mind, Gates' is somewhat decent too, but a bit optimistic (per Papert above).
NAFV_P 13y ago
> Quite frankly I'm shocked and confused by some of the negativity I've seen expressed (including those from the HN community) towards code.org, and the idea of programming as a basic literacy in general. I couldn't agree more, I thought code.org was really cool, educational and entertaining. I take the view that the less money or resources you have, the more education you require. I currently have £0.90 in my bank account, so I need all the knowledge and skills I can get my hands on. > To me, this comes off as a desperate attempt to defame this movement because it threatens to demote the status of basic technology roles from "elite magic" to "basic literacy" -- and to some people, apparently that's not an amazing social good, but a terrifying prospect of power loss. Am I way off base here in perceiving this? To be less verbose, RTFM. RTFM seems to be applicable only when some noob asks a question; when a noob makes a statement that is considered incorrect, you get loads of experts correcting said noob. A lot of the time the original noob statement was misunderstood because the experts misread the statement. I have even come across this on HN. I started coding at the grand old age of 31 and have no background in CS, so I tend to be treated like a noob, even though I can write a quine in C. A few months ago I was chatting with a friend of mine who works in software development about linked lists, the first sentence I uttered went straight over his head.
minusSeven 13y ago
Actually you are the one who is bashing him. He just merely pointed out that the claim learning to program does not necessarily make you smarter. He is not ridiculing, discrediting or otherwise attacking anything. He might even agree with you. Your claim that this is an attempt to defame this movement is illogical. Everyone has their own opinion learn to accept it, whether you agree with him or not.

hackaflocka 13y ago

It's the same crowd that wants Linux server administration to be obtuse (they want to preserve their power).

dkuntz2 13y ago

I personally think that the whole "learn to code" meme is a little silly, but I also think that everyone should be exposed to programming at least once. I think that things like code.org are pretty cool, but the tone most of those projects use is a little off putting to me. They all just sound like "you must learn to code or you're a dinosaur". I don't think that's true, but I also don't think people should be as averse to programming as they are. Or computers for that matter. What's more important in my mind is gleaning a little bit about how computers work. Nothing overly complicated like how a processor or memory work, but that every program is basically just a set of logic routines. The easiest way to do that is probably by teaching a little programming (or logical thinking).

amasad 13y ago

I think the problem here is that programmers don't agree with the way this is being marketed. All the talk about how programming will make you rich and it's so easy is a bit superficial. Personally, I understand that this is the most effective way to carry out this campaign and get the policy makers and the laymen to buy in.

yapcguy 13y ago
In many countries, a professional is considered to be a banker, lawyer or a doctor. Programmers are not given the same respect. Now with the importance of technology in our day-to-day lives, there is a chance for programmers and those working in IT to be considered as professionals, as equals. Instead we have people within the industry running around describing themselves as 'geeks' and 'nerds' and 'hackers'. Meanwhile those outside the industry claim that programming is easy, anyone can do it, all you need is a computer and a couple of lessons. You would not find people saying the same thing about doctors or lawyers, and you would not find doctors or lawyers denigrating themselves.
- Yhippa 13y ago
  This is really starting to sound like the dotcom era where anybody who wrote a line of HTML could say that they were a software developer.
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    It's worse. Apparently you can take a random homeless person, give them a few lessons, and hey presto you have an app maker.
    - TeMPOraL 13y ago
      Well, 99% of apps don't do anything useful - they're either for killing time or an invention of marketing department hell-bent on selling you more of the stuff you don't need. So I'm not surprised that it's not difficult to build something that can compete in this market.

mkremins 13y ago

> "Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible -- like a quaint little animal trying to imitate us true intellectuals up here in our high tower of superiority." I exaggerate, but this is basically the elitist mentality I perceive behind the actual quote. Am I way off base here? I get the impression that this comment has more to do with contrasting will.i.am's statement with the other statements on code.org for effect than it has to do with specifically putting down will.i.am. With this comment, the linked piece seems to be implying that the statements made by Zuckerberg, Clinton et al are inspired by wrongheaded beliefs about the purpose of education, and that only will.i.am's statement comes anywhere close to hitting the right tone. I read this comment as genuinely complimentary, albeit weak. As I read it, Bret Victor's critique of code.org is more nuanced than the usual complaints: it stems from a disagreement with code.org's implicit claim that programming should be taught in schools because programming is currently a high-value skill, in terms of the amount of money you can earn by doing it professionally. He seems to think that school shouldn't be primarily about training people to be "useful" to employers or the government in the short term. I'm somewhat inclined to agree. > To me, this comes off as a desperate attempt to defame this movement because it threatens to demote the status of basic technology roles from "elite magic" to "basic literacy" -- and to some people, apparently that's not an amazing social good, but a terrifying prospect of power loss. Am I way off base here in perceiving this? In the context of Victor's body of work (which is focused more or less entirely on making the incredible power of computers more accessible to more people), I have a hard time believing that any such motivation underlies the linked piece. While I think there definitely exists such a motivation in other criticisms of the learn-to-code meme, I don't think it has much to do with Victor's critiques.

d23 13y ago
> With this comment, the linked piece seems to be implying that the statements made by Zuckerberg, Clinton et al are inspired by wrongheaded beliefs about the purpose of education, and that only will.i.am's statement comes anywhere close to hitting the right tone. I read this comment as genuinely complimentary, albeit weak. Fair enough, but is Gates's claim that "learning to write programs stretches your mind" really that far off or that much worse? Or that "an understanding of computer science is becoming increasing essentially in today's world"? Maybe it's a trivial point, but is it as offensive as this link makes it out to be?

kyberias 13y ago

Ad hominem? Really, where?

npc 13y ago

>Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible I think it's less to do with him being a musician/artist than with him being will.i.am, notorious "My Humps" backup singer. If it had been Thom Yorke or Getty Lee or someone then I think they'd probably have been (reasonably or not) treated with a little more respect.

kunai 13y ago
Thom's AMA would suggest otherwise. I love Radiohead, but... come on.
- mjolk 13y ago
  What's an AMA? Did he speak about coding and its role in society?
  - kunai 13y ago
    No, I meant the respect part. Thom is known for his cryptic ambiguity and often surreal sentence formation, so it's doubtful his opinion would be held in higher regard than anyone else's.

throwawyname 13y ago

I'm all for making Computer Science education more accessible, but this code.org initiative and its "coding is easy!" and "everyone should learn to code!" and "you only need basic addition and subtraction" BS is really insulting to people who've actually put in the difficult effort and long hours of study and practice it takes to become a professional: http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html All Zuckerberg, Gates and the other Valley backers of code.org want is more code monkeys who are just competent enough to glue together stuff they don't fully understand and couldn't implement if asked to, so they can drive down the wages of actual, competent programmers. It's the same reason they support immigration reform. And why the push to flood the market with "coders," when health care, not software, is bankrupting us as a country? Why isn't there a "everyone should learn medicine" initiative? Isn't your health important to you? Obviously because it would be illegal, and US doctors (the highest paid in the world) would never allow it.

yapcguy 13y ago
>Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Dropbox CEO Drew Houston doled out awards on Thursday night to online applications built by young immigrants during a 25-hour marathon coding session at LinkedIn’s headquarters. The “hackathon” event sponsored by Zuckerberg’s political advocacy group, FWD.us, brought together a group of 20 young tech-savvy immigrants who came to the United States illegally with their families as children and are not citizens. Coders of the winning apps received prizes such as Microsoft Surface tablets, Cisco Webcams, Facebook apparel and free storage space from Dropbox. The aim of FWD.us's hackathon is to pressure the House to break its logjam on immigration legislation by highlighting the technical talents of young immigrants who are living in the country illegally -- often called “Dreamers” in relation to the Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors (Dream) Act — like the coders participating in the event. http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/191176-zuckerberg-awards-dreamers-for-immigration-lobbying-aps http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/191176-z...
NAFV_P 13y ago
> I'm all for making Computer Science education more accessible, but this code.org initiative and its "coding is easy!" and "everyone should learn to code!" and "you only need basic addition and subtraction" BS is really insulting to people who've actually put in the difficult effort and long hours of study and practice it takes to become a professional: http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html Several of my friends work in IT, and pull in decent salaries. I don't think any one of them has been writing code on a continual basis for ten years. In the UK the MCITP course costs about £1500 - £2000, takes about a year to complete and you can land a decent job with it. The main reason I don't have an MCITP is because I can't afford one, I need to get a job to pull in the necessary funds. I can't get a job because I'm overqualified for a lot of them, or I can't afford the courses if I'm underqualified. If I ask a question about computing, I often get the response: "Visit this website". If someone asks me a question about computing and I can sort of answer it, I will try and explain it to the best of my ability. It was only around two years ago I was able to get my own computer. I had been trying to get one for around 5 - 6 years, but couldn't due to lack of funds. Meanwhile someone at the job centre says I should stick to what I am capable of. Said someone believes I am barely capable of even filling out an agreement form, so it is completed for me without my permission. I noticed around six or seven spelling and grammatical errors. Oh, did I mention that on the rare occasion I do manage to get a full time minimum wage job, it is often accompanied with abusive behaviour. By abusive behaviour I mean being shouted and sworn at (phrases include "fuck off", "you fucking idiot", "cunting", "that kid is fucking thick as two short planks", "stay out of my way or I'll fucking throw it at ya", "you trying to do my fucking job?"). I'm sorry, but I don't see what is particularly insulting about "code.org", I didn't notice swearing or abusive/threatening comments on the site. Perhaps my standards are different to yours. EDIT: messed up the formatting, again.

sas 13y ago

I think it's highly likely that Bret is completely unaware of how much time will.i.am spends at MIT with Prof. Patrick Winston, and how deeply he cares about technology. In fact, I would bet that will.i.am spends more time in dialogue with people at CSAIL then Bret does. http://sliceofmit.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/friend2.jpg http://sliceofmit.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/friend2.jpg

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Considering Bret Victor lives on the west coast and CSAIL is on the east coast...this isn't too hard to believe. Its not like even most CS PL academics are spending time in dialogue with people from CSAIL.

nardi 13y ago

If you were aware of Bret's previous work, then you would know that he's got nothing against code.org specifically. He's addressing the culture. He's been talking about Mindstorms and programming literacy since before code.org existed. He totally agrees that people should learn programming, and he has no problem with the word "code." He simply disagrees with the motivation—he thinks (and I agree) that people should learn to program because it helps people think, and helps people learn. Not because programming is profitable. Also, you completely misunderstood the bit about will.i.am. It was a compliment, not an insult. He was saying that will.i.am has a better opinion on programming, as a musician, than all of these other people who should know better (public policy makers and programmers).

oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
I'm interested: what is it about the wrd 'code' that you think people don't like? Do you think such people are generally coming from an elitist view, or just a pedantic one?
neilk 13y ago
> he thinks (and I agree) that people should learn to program because it helps people think, and helps people learn. Read it again. He specifically called that out as a terrible idea. Bret believes in Seymour Papert's vision, where coding is not an end in itself, but a vessel for experiential learning about important ideas in mathematics and other fields.
- nardi 13y ago
  I think you misunderstood me. When I said "helps people think/learn", I meant by USING programming, not by being TREATED with programming. This is the same distinction Bret is trying to make.

mambodog 13y ago

"Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible -- like a quaint little animal trying to imitate us true intellectuals up here in our high tower of superiority." I exaggerate, but this is basically the elitist mentality I perceive behind the actual quote. Put down those quote marks until you've learned how to use them properly. We've seen the damage that can do in pg's recent and unfortunate tarring with the 'sexist' brush.

yen223 13y ago
> "Put down those quote marks until you've learned how to use them properly." Speaking of elitist mentality...
callum85 13y ago
You're wrong to imply that quote marks should never be used this way. You knew that the quote-marked text was just a rhetorical paraphrasing to make a point, and so would any reasonable person. The context makes it completely obvious that it's not an actual quotation.
rfnslyr 13y ago
I'm either being whooshed real hard or you're serious.

OverlordXenu 13y ago

There's failure in logic that comes from thinking that code.org's public-facing copy is the same as their policy. Has anyone bothered to read the policy? Does it say the same "coding = make smarter" thing? Though I guess it isn't necessarily stupid to attack this kind of normalization, but I certainly don't think people will be worse off if they learn the basics of CS and a programming language. At the very least it gives them another tool with which they can solve problems. I guess the danger comes from going so "EVERYONE MUST LEARN CODE HOW TO DO" crazy that it comes at the expense of other education endeavors, instead of an enrichment on top of what already exists.

jowiar 13y ago

I read the will.i.am bit differently, in that of all the quotes out there, his is the only one that is not unreasonable and focuses on the student, in comparison to the assorted political and business folks who are saying "learn to code because we want to use you". In my mind, Gates' is somewhat decent too, but a bit optimistic (per Papert above).

NAFV_P 13y ago

> Quite frankly I'm shocked and confused by some of the negativity I've seen expressed (including those from the HN community) towards code.org, and the idea of programming as a basic literacy in general. I couldn't agree more, I thought code.org was really cool, educational and entertaining. I take the view that the less money or resources you have, the more education you require. I currently have £0.90 in my bank account, so I need all the knowledge and skills I can get my hands on. > To me, this comes off as a desperate attempt to defame this movement because it threatens to demote the status of basic technology roles from "elite magic" to "basic literacy" -- and to some people, apparently that's not an amazing social good, but a terrifying prospect of power loss. Am I way off base here in perceiving this? To be less verbose, RTFM. RTFM seems to be applicable only when some noob asks a question; when a noob makes a statement that is considered incorrect, you get loads of experts correcting said noob. A lot of the time the original noob statement was misunderstood because the experts misread the statement. I have even come across this on HN. I started coding at the grand old age of 31 and have no background in CS, so I tend to be treated like a noob, even though I can write a quine in C. A few months ago I was chatting with a friend of mine who works in software development about linked lists, the first sentence I uttered went straight over his head.

minusSeven 13y ago

Actually you are the one who is bashing him. He just merely pointed out that the claim learning to program does not necessarily make you smarter. He is not ridiculing, discrediting or otherwise attacking anything. He might even agree with you. Your claim that this is an attempt to defame this movement is illogical. Everyone has their own opinion learn to accept it, whether you agree with him or not.