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Ford Exec: 'We Know Everyone Who Breaks the Law' Thanks To Our GPS In Your Car
- debacle 13y agoWhy not link to the original source instead of slashdot? You might as well be linking to blogspam.
- ck2 13y agoDoes that mean they know the cop who wrote you the ticket and the judge who found you guilty, both went faster than the speed limit that morning when you all appeared in court? This is kind of like how the NSA knows about every crooked cop in America based on financial and voice/data traffic but decides not to tell anyone because it might upset people they know this.
- darkxanthos 13y agoIt's not that there's GPS in my car and me breaking the law is knowable that concerns me... it's that this exec implies that the data is being uploaded without my consent.
- codereflection 13y agoMy thoughts exactly.
- jrockway 13y agoI think perfect enforcement of laws would be great. Because traffic tickets are so random, nobody really changes their behavior to avoid them, and it becomes more of a reverse lottery than anything else. Meanwhile, children on their way to school also lose the reverse lottery, but instead of a $300 fine, they die. Perfect enforcement also puts pressure on lawmakers to make reasonable laws. If it's just some guy that you don't relate to being burned by stupid laws, you're not going to care. If it's everyone, you are going to care.
- oleganza 13y agoIn the same spirit, children should also wear a GPS which will bite them in the ass if they move outside the playground area. And their parents should also wear similar GPS in case they'd try to go to some nasty places to buy drugs instead of educating and feeding their children. To protect kids, everyone should wear a GPS. Except for those who write and enforce the law, of course.
- eli 13y agoI think this is one of the standard arguments for automated traffic enforcement, which has been around for years. Around me they are expanding red light cameras and speed cameras to also be able to write tickets for blocking the box and not coming to a complete stop at stop signs.
- massysett 13y agoWashington DC pervasively uses speed cameras and it certainly slows me down. People now drive the speed limit on a freeway where the speed limit is an absurdly low 45 mph. Complaints about some wide boulevards where the city routinely ran speed traps probably played a role in spurring the mayor to increase the speed limits on some roads. Certainly that's better than having absurdly low speed limits that people ignore. The police chief credits the widespread speed cameras for a reduction in traffic fatalities.
- eli 13y agoI have mixed feelings about some of the camera (e.g. I suspect many of the Red Light tickets are people who just missed a yellow light, which feels like it should not be as stiff a fine as an inattentive driver who blows right through an intersection.) That said, I'm 100% for blocking-the-box cameras. It's a huge problem in DC that leads to cascading gridlock and pedestrians snaking through intersections.
- belluchan 13y agoPolice use judgment, not just about giving you a ticket, but when and where they will look for infractions, so it's not a reverse lottery. It's not random. The think of the children argument is often used to enhance laws and punishments. I don't really mind the GPS everywhere tracking, but what you're asking for is ridiculous even to me.
- belluchan 13y agoYour car isn't the only person who knows where you are. Your cellular phone service, your smartphone manufacturer, all the apps that have GPS access, license plate scanners, people who upload pictures with your face in it with GPS coordinates. This is the inevitable future in developed countries. It's probably going to be a long time before this saturation reaches under-developed countries so you can probably make a nice life for yourself there if you really hate this.
- occam65 13y agoI get the sinking feeling that this trend is gaining momentum, rather than reversing course. If the trend continues, government standards may soon require tracking technology "For Your Safety (TM)".
- randlet 13y agoI think a bigger threat is from insurance companies[1]. "Want insurance? Sure but first you just need to install this black box in your car!" [1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/car-tracking-devices-spark-privacy-concerns-1.1366687 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/car-tracking-devices-spark-pri...
- occam65 13y agoAgreed, the concerning theme is the required usage of tracking software, without the opportunity to opt-out in an effective way.
- altero 13y agoI wonder what are legal implications of running GPS jammer constantly.
- RankingMember 13y agoShould be none, at least in the U.S. It's your car.
- matthewmacleod 13y agoI'm pretty sure GPS jammers are illegal in the US, though. I guess if you wanted to wrap the antenna in aluminium foil, that wouldn't be a problem.
- jasomill 13y agoRight, and you could also just disconnect the antenna. But GPS is useful for applications that have nothing to do with tracking, so it'd be nice to have access to devices which include strong, legally enforceable guarantees against location tracking (aside from targeted, judicially sanctioned tracking by law enforcement, since making life difficult for cops with warrants does little more than waste taxpayer money).
- gnu8 13y agoThe legal implications of jamming are that it is illegal. You would be better off clipping the wires to the GPS antenna, or if it is a separate component, disconnecting and removing the GPS module entirely. It was actually very easy to disable the Onstar module in my vehicle this way. Reference for jamming legality in the United States: http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/jammer-enforcement http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/jammer-enforcement
- gaius 13y agoHere in the UK OFCOM would come down on you like a ton of bricks, if they noticed.
- Raphmedia 13y ago
- ankitoberoi 13y agoI drive a Ford (No GPS) and I'm not sure if any ford car here in India has GPS which uploads the data. I'm curious: How does the upload happen - In-built SIM? Who pays for the Data?
- Codhisattva 13y agoFord pays for a cell data link. Edge, 2G and analog equipment is still out there and cheap for things like this.
- ef47d35620c1 13y agoRadio waves. There are GPS jammers. Many truck drivers use them: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57597971-71/truck-driver-has-gps-jammer-accidentally-jams-newark-airport/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57597971-71/truck-driver-h...
- dingaling 13y agoGPS is receive-only. The article to which you linked involves a man with a GPS jammer that prevented reception of GPS signals in the local area and hence prevented derivation of location. What the parent poster was asking is how Ford upload the derived location.
- ef47d35620c1 13y agoAh, I misunderstood the question. Thanks for the clarification.
- rickdale 13y agoI just bought a ford taurus. It immediately connects my cell phone to my car and I sorta get the feeling like the cops that sit on the eway have access to the computer in my car and also the cell phone connected to that computer. But hey thats just my paranoia. On another note, it was very clear checking off do not track in the vehicle. The only reason they say they want to track is for data like the exec gives the example for, traffic analysis etc. not like daily tracking. But it is creepy and really I dont know if all the benefits balance out the potential drawbacks. There is also this notification in the myfordsync system that is "911 Assist".. now this is a fine option, but literally the car will remind you everytime you start it that it is off and unless you select otherwise, it won't just alert you, but will give you the option to turn it on.
- CrazedGeek 13y agoYou can turn the Assist notification off under Settings somewhere (under Phone, maybe?), for what it's worth.
- rickdale 13y agoThat option will turn off the ability to turn on 911 assist upon starting the car. I haven't been able to turn off the pop-up notification that comes up for a second that says "911 Assist Off".. as soon as I hit reverse the backup cam takes over the screen and I don't see it again, but clearly someone wants you using it.
- evacuationdrill 13y agoI think they're just covering their asses with that warning.
- sentenza 13y agoRelax. You don't have to stress yourself out about these things, since you soon won't have much of a choice anyway. The day will come when you can't get car insurance without active tracking. It is just too tempting for insurance companies to reduce their claim investigation overhead/cost with that technology. Of course, strong privacy protection laws could keep this from happening. Yeah.
- alexholehouse 13y agoOriginal article: http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1
- downandout 13y agoThis quote was taken out of context and generalized, I assume purposely, to unjustly raise the alarm level. According to the Business Insider article, he was specifically referring to speeding violations. From http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1: "Because of the GPS units installed in Ford vehicles, Ford knows when many of its drivers are speeding, and where they are while they're doing it." He also said "I absolutely left the wrong impression about how Ford operates. We do not track our customers in their cars without their approval or consent." The iPhone in your pocket can do much more damage to you in terms of incriminating evidence than Ford can.
- aristus 13y agoIf it wasn't slanted, it'd be |.
- melling 13y ago"This quote was taken out of context and generalized" It doesn't matter on HN. This gives us an excuse to continue the ongoing privacy debate for hours. #NSA #CRIME #POLITICS #CONSPIRACYTHEORY
- kbutler 13y agoYou are quoting the article, but the headline is from his quoted statement a paragraph later (later retracted saying it was hypothetical): "We know everyone who breaks the law, we know when you're doing it. We have GPS in your car, so we know what you're doing. By the way, we don't supply that data to anyone," he told attendees. http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-exec-gps-2014-1
- gnu8 13y agoThis guy should be indicted immediately, as an accessory to all of the crimes he knows about and hasn't reported.
- gaius 13y agoWe're linking to Slashdot now? Why not a link to the original article?
- Zigurd 13y agoThe telematics system, especially the radio, is probably on a separate fuse.
- pmorici 13y agoThe other way to look at it is they also know when you aren't breaking the law so maybe you could subpeona Ford's records to prove that cop was lying when he said you were speeding at 25 over.
- mdesq 13y agoI'd love to see large penalties for cops who could be proven to have lied about situations.
- awjr 13y agoPrivacy issues aside, a more interesting analysis would be to determine what percentage of car drivers do not break the law. Assuming analysis is purely on breaking speed limits, then further analysis could be done based on type of road (residential, motorway, etc), % above speed limit, number of miles spent breaking the law etc. Correlate this data with accident black spots (insurance claims, type of accident, time of day etc). You could even do route analysis and focus resources (e.g. a particular area has a large number of cars driving to schools and back, could a cycle/foot path help alleviate this). This would be a fantastic set of data to get your hands on.
- jrabone 13y agoI'm sure TomTom would be happy to sell it to you - see http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/products/traffic/real-time-traffic/hd-traffic/index.jsp?WT.Click_Link=home_quick_link http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/licensing/products/traffic/real-...
- bobtheowl2 13y agoSadly there is more business incentive for this data to be misused than used for good like you mention. While we are there we need to fix speed limits so they are valid. I propose a >2 std deviations = ticket rule. Instead of the current "we all know it's illegal but were only be a little illegal so it's ok", that defeats the point of having laws I think.
- barrkel 13y agoFord VP Jim Farley: we don't supply that data to anyone The only thing that remains to be seen is how long that stays true. Once the data exists, it's much easier for the state to appropriate it. It's far harder for the state to mandate collection of this data to begin with. Ford has already done the hard bit. The UK's CleanFeed was similarly coopted in order to implement censorship of PirateBay. It's unlikely the courts could have forced ISPs to implement a censorship scheme. But the ISPs created one anyway, with the noble goal of reducing child porn commerce; and of course, it was only to be used for this purpose. But once the courts found out about the capability, they could force it to be used in much more ambiguous and less noble situations.
- ctdonath 13y agoI want that changed to we don't COLLECT that data, much less supply it to anyone. Don't think I'll be buying a Ford until then, and will check for other manufacturers pulling the same intrusive stunt.
- codereflection 13y ago"...everyone who breaks the law..." Everyone? Hardly.
- xradionut 13y ago"The Hyperion grinder lottery is almost upon us! Mandatory tickets will be sent to each household next month."
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- homersapien 13y agoIt won't be long until the Feds have technology that grabs metadata from the tech in your car as you cruise down the road. I suspect their definition of "metadata" will be broad enough to include things like speed, rate of acceleration, latitude/longitude (if car is equipped with GPS, of course), etc. Seems crazy, except that most of us probably thought the idea of government backdoors in Google, Facebook, etc. to be "crazy" until very recently.
- johnward 13y agoWhat makes you think they don't have the technology now?
- joering2 13y agoOkay, this wasn't Denis Rodman or some other mindless crackhead speaking; it was high exec of Ford. Think for a moment; why would he come on the record to state this and then back it down? Obviously, to protect the company! Its a PR stunt. Just like IRS learnt to scoop people's swimming pools that haven't been taxed via Google Earth, my bet is that the same way state/federalies are looking for extra places to milk you. Everyone is speeding or sped at some point; the amount of money waiting to be collected must be humongous. Its just a matter of how they go retroactively with it. My bet is that they will make it "good news" that even if you speed 40 miles above, your license won't be suspended, we just gonna fine you $1,000. Can't pay? we leave it up to the IRS (the best mob to collect dues on the face of Earth). But him coming out to say that is just introduction to "don't tell us later we haven't told u + you could opt out anytime by clicking some checkbox + we have to comply with Feds" combination. Prepare for more.
- akgerber 13y agoUniversal tracking built into cars isn't the solution, but remember that speeding, especially in urban neighborhoods full of pedestrians, isn't a victimless crime: cars at 20mph have 5% odds of killing pedestrians in a crash, cars at 30mph kill ~40% of the time, and cars at 40mph kill 85% of the time[0]. So please stop speeding, and I'll keep advocating for automated traffic enforcement to protect my life. [0]http://humantransport.org/sidewalks/SpeedKills.htm http://humantransport.org/sidewalks/SpeedKills.htm
- nawitus 13y agoProbability of death is not an interesting stastics. A relevant number is the percentage of traffic accident deaths caused by speeding. >The contributory factor report in the official British road casualty statistics show for 2006, that "exceeding speed limit" was a contributory factor in 5% of all casualty crashes (14% of all fatal crashes) I remember reading that about 10% of fatal crashes in Finland are caused by speeding.
- headShrinker 13y agoYour use FUD to justify unwarranted spying and data collection for the use of prosecution is stunning. Not to mention it's a violation of the constitution.
- mikeyouse 13y agoIt's a violation of the constitution for a private company to collect data on a product that they sell you, when they tell you ahead of time they'll be collecting that data? Wow, those framers thought of everything.
- headShrinker 13y ago> So please stop speeding, and I'll keep advocating for automated traffic enforcement to protect my life. Please pay attention. Things move fast around here.
- 13y ago
- kordless 13y agoMy issue with stuff like this is this: I don't get paid for them using data that is tied to my behaviors and I don't know what they do with that data once they get it. I'd be down with selling them the data if they were willing to bid on it, as long as I know what they did with it later (and got paid if they shared it with others).
- Istof 13y agoLooks like they are fishing for a government contract.
- johnward 13y agoI'm not saying I'm ok with this but since OnStar was released I assumed someone was tracking vehicles. Especially when they announced the theft deterrent systems such as tracking and remotely disabling a vehicle.
- uptown 13y agoThey got themselves into some shit when they announced their plans to continue tracking vehicles that were capable of OnStar even if the owner wasn't a subscriber. Since making this announcement, they backtracked on this plan ... but makes you wonder whether they really did since it's clearly possible for them to continue collecting vehicle data unless you disable with with the correct jumpers. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/onstar-backtracks-on-collection-of-data-from-ex-subscribers/?_r=0 http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/onstar-backtracks...
- rjzzleep 13y agohow come no one linked the eula like on slashdot ? https://support.ford.com/tools/account/sync-terms https://support.ford.com/tools/account/sync-terms "Ford may use the vehicle information it collects, as well as information regarding individual access to Vehicle Health Reports at www.syncmyride.com for any purpose"
- ds9 13y agoWhat's concerning about that is that you can't opt out. It's part of a service that is supposedly optional, but the linked document repeatedly emphasizes that the terms apply upon any use of the service, even by someone who's never seen the terms. Hopefully that's not enforceable, but the judicial history with software licensing suggests that it would be.
- rjzzleep 13y agowell if you have enough money than no it's not enforceable. as it stands it's basically a you're giving me everything and i'm letting you know officially, sue me if you can.
- lsh123 13y agoI think there is another interesting angle here: while a death of a person from a car driving too fast is a horrible tragedy; for the society as a whole, it might be better to accept X deaths to get Y people to their destinations faster. This is a common mistake in the modern political practice to use one-time/rare events to justify stricter laws for everyone. Most obvious and well known recent example, of course, is the establishment of TSA after 9/11. But the same applies to the speed limits on the road: a one-time car crash is usually used to justify lower speed limits.
- sosborn 13y agoYou make a good point, but let's not pretend that crashes due to speed are "one-time" events. There is a certain roadway near where I live that frequently has these types of crashes. Lowering the speed limit doesn't help of course (these people are interested in obeying any posted limit).
- lsh123 13y agoI was talking about situations when a single crash on in a particular place of the road causes the speed limit to be dropped. I have no problem with lowering speed limits or doing other changes to the road when there is a history of incidents. E.g. I think police & other agencies did a fantastic job on hwy 17 a few years back to make it much safer and more pleasant to drive.
- galvan 13y agoThe traffic analysis case seems to be a lot like the way Google aggregates smartphone GPS data to do real-time traffic for Google Maps [0] [0] http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/bright-side-of-sitting-in-traffic.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/bright-side-of-sittin...
- thechildren 13y agoYou people seem to basically beg for this kind of tracking everywhere else. Someone questions it, and immediately there are 15 of you to tell them why advertisers, the government, and god, AKA facebook deserve to have access to everything you do.
- elwell 13y agohttp://www.businessinsider.com/ford-jim-farley-retracts-statements-tracking-drivers-gps-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/ford-jim-farley-retracts-stat...