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When I was at U of T, I used to blame all the coffee shops being filled with students on the university not providing adequate work/study space for its 44,000 s

When I was at U of T, I used to blame all the coffee shops being filled with students on the university not providing adequate work/study space for its 44,000 students (a few of my friends got banned from a nearby Second Cup after using a booth at the back to solder circuit boards for a design project). After graduating I moved to the suburbs, where Starbucks is rammed with high school students doing homework but the public library across the street is empty despite having more comfortable seating, faster Wi-Fi and you know, actually being intended as an open public space for quiet reading and study.

bunderbunder 13y ago
Does the library sell good coffee and tea which you're allowed to take to the workspaces, and have pleasant lighting? My old college's library would allow you to bring in beverages in containers that have tight-fitting lids, and was well-lit and comfortable. It was also jammed with students in there studying at all hours. The university I live near now allows zero food or beverages and has cheap, eye strain inducing fluorescent lighting, and it's a ghost town. The only reason I spend any time studying there is that as a non-student I'm not allowed to check out books.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  Does the library sell good coffee and tea... Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. It must be something else.
  - ams6110 13y ago
    Subjective, and goodness of coffee is not binary. Starbucks coffee is, IMO, better than what you find at most "affordable" restaurants, sandwich shops, diners, etc. If you a coffee connoisseur, it may not be good. But most people aren't, they just want something better than Folgers. There's also the McDonald's effect: it may not be great, but it's pretty much the same everywhere. You know what you are going to get before you go in.
    - jules 13y ago
      Many 3 star restaurants serve Nespresso. So yes, good coffee can be found in many places.
      - icebraining 13y ago
        Nespresso isn't that great either.
        jules 13y ago
        For judging what is good coffee, I'm gonna go with the taste of the chefs of those 3 star restaurants, rather than with icebraining on hacker news.
        icebraining 13y ago
        If you actually read why they pick Nespresso, "the best taste" is not part of the reasons. They cite size, cost, consistency, usability, etc. "in our business, you spend so much time trying to be perfect with food and service that it's very hard to put the same dedication into a coffee program." Don't get me wrong, it's better than what I drink at home, but it's hardly great coffee.
        jules 13y ago
        Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee? Sure, it may not be the best coffee in the world, but even 3 star restaurants, which usually spare any expense to improve the quality do not think it is economical to make better coffee themselves. Do they think that Nespresso doesn't have good taste and just "consistency"? Of course not. Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way? I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself, but lets see what you're up against. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Being at home gives you no particular advantage. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Contrast this with, for instance, making bread. Bread tastes 10 times better when it is fresh. Unlike coffee, vacuum sealing a bread is impossible. So even if a factory managed to bake a bread with perfectly tuned parameters, by the time that bread is on your table it doesn't taste great anymore. Coffee simply doesn't have this.
  - bunderbunder 13y ago
    > Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. Arguably, the first clause of that sentence is disproved by the second one. I'm not particularly fond of Starbucks coffee, either. But clearly plenty of people are, and their preferences are no less valid than mine.
    - elohesra 13y ago
      This assumes that people are going there for the drinks. Given the statement by the parent poster, it seems that they're hanging around long after they've finished their drinks, so that's probably not the reason they're there.
- jasomill 13y ago
  Central Library in Indianapolis sells food and drinks, and has nicer lighting than most coffee shops[1]. Hours are shorter than Starbucks, though. [1] http://tinyurl.com/centralgoogletour http://tinyurl.com/centralgoogletour
tsiki 13y ago
I honestly think public libraries should be allowed to use some of their money to advertise and create a brand for themselves. For a lot of people the thing deterring the usage of library is simply the idea that it's unexciting or doesn't offer enough, while usually a coffee shop is pretty much equal or worse. Of course it'll lead to people complaining how their tax money is being used for ads, but it makes libraries reach a larger audience and, in economic terms, improves well-being of more people.
- e12e 13y ago
  Are there such arbitrary restrictions on budget spending by public libraries (in which states, or is that a federal thing)? I can accept that public libraries might be somewhat underfunded, and choose to not advertise -- but it sounds strange that they are somehow forbidden to do so? (At least here in Norway most of the public libraries does quite a lot of advertising -- it's hard to imagine any service remaining visible if it's banned from marketing...).
  - taejo 13y ago
    I believe (from second-hand sources) that many libraries in the US are required by their funders (state and municipal governments) to spend a certain fraction of their budgets on buying books.
    - e12e 13y ago
      Well, that doesn't sound too crazy ("you need to spend some part of your budget on actually being a library") -- but that shouldn't exclude all marketing -- unless that fraction is very high indeed...?

bunderbunder 13y ago

Does the library sell good coffee and tea which you're allowed to take to the workspaces, and have pleasant lighting? My old college's library would allow you to bring in beverages in containers that have tight-fitting lids, and was well-lit and comfortable. It was also jammed with students in there studying at all hours. The university I live near now allows zero food or beverages and has cheap, eye strain inducing fluorescent lighting, and it's a ghost town. The only reason I spend any time studying there is that as a non-student I'm not allowed to check out books.

MartinCron 13y ago
Does the library sell good coffee and tea... Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. It must be something else.
- ams6110 13y ago
  Subjective, and goodness of coffee is not binary. Starbucks coffee is, IMO, better than what you find at most "affordable" restaurants, sandwich shops, diners, etc. If you a coffee connoisseur, it may not be good. But most people aren't, they just want something better than Folgers. There's also the McDonald's effect: it may not be great, but it's pretty much the same everywhere. You know what you are going to get before you go in.
  - jules 13y ago
    Many 3 star restaurants serve Nespresso. So yes, good coffee can be found in many places.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      Nespresso isn't that great either.
      - jules 13y ago
        For judging what is good coffee, I'm gonna go with the taste of the chefs of those 3 star restaurants, rather than with icebraining on hacker news.
        icebraining 13y ago
        If you actually read why they pick Nespresso, "the best taste" is not part of the reasons. They cite size, cost, consistency, usability, etc. "in our business, you spend so much time trying to be perfect with food and service that it's very hard to put the same dedication into a coffee program." Don't get me wrong, it's better than what I drink at home, but it's hardly great coffee.
        jules 13y ago
        Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee? Sure, it may not be the best coffee in the world, but even 3 star restaurants, which usually spare any expense to improve the quality do not think it is economical to make better coffee themselves. Do they think that Nespresso doesn't have good taste and just "consistency"? Of course not. Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way? I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself, but lets see what you're up against. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Being at home gives you no particular advantage. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Contrast this with, for instance, making bread. Bread tastes 10 times better when it is fresh. Unlike coffee, vacuum sealing a bread is impossible. So even if a factory managed to bake a bread with perfectly tuned parameters, by the time that bread is on your table it doesn't taste great anymore. Coffee simply doesn't have this.
- bunderbunder 13y ago
  > Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. Arguably, the first clause of that sentence is disproved by the second one. I'm not particularly fond of Starbucks coffee, either. But clearly plenty of people are, and their preferences are no less valid than mine.
  - elohesra 13y ago
    This assumes that people are going there for the drinks. Given the statement by the parent poster, it seems that they're hanging around long after they've finished their drinks, so that's probably not the reason they're there.
jasomill 13y ago
Central Library in Indianapolis sells food and drinks, and has nicer lighting than most coffee shops[1]. Hours are shorter than Starbucks, though. [1] http://tinyurl.com/centralgoogletour http://tinyurl.com/centralgoogletour

tsiki 13y ago

I honestly think public libraries should be allowed to use some of their money to advertise and create a brand for themselves. For a lot of people the thing deterring the usage of library is simply the idea that it's unexciting or doesn't offer enough, while usually a coffee shop is pretty much equal or worse. Of course it'll lead to people complaining how their tax money is being used for ads, but it makes libraries reach a larger audience and, in economic terms, improves well-being of more people.

e12e 13y ago
Are there such arbitrary restrictions on budget spending by public libraries (in which states, or is that a federal thing)? I can accept that public libraries might be somewhat underfunded, and choose to not advertise -- but it sounds strange that they are somehow forbidden to do so? (At least here in Norway most of the public libraries does quite a lot of advertising -- it's hard to imagine any service remaining visible if it's banned from marketing...).
- taejo 13y ago
  I believe (from second-hand sources) that many libraries in the US are required by their funders (state and municipal governments) to spend a certain fraction of their budgets on buying books.
  - e12e 13y ago
    Well, that doesn't sound too crazy ("you need to spend some part of your budget on actually being a library") -- but that shouldn't exclude all marketing -- unless that fraction is very high indeed...?