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There is an interesting comment in the original article, that I wasn't sure about, and figured I'd bring up here: "There was always a question that bogged me.

There is an interesting comment in the original article, that I wasn't sure about, and figured I'd bring up here: "There was always a question that bogged me. Imagine you are called aside to do a routine border check in airport security area. Imagine they want to inspect your laptop. Can you refuse to surrender your password which encrypts the whole disk? Is there such right to say "Nay, what is mine stays mine"?" As somebody who is not from the USA, are you allowed to ask that they perform any security checks in front of you? Are you allowed to ask for the TSA agent's supervisor and have them walk you through each of the steps? I guess one obvious solution is to carry the laptop/device with you on the flight, and leave the battery/adapter in check luggage, but this becomes more difficult when you consider tablets, phones, and the like. Thoughts? As somebody who may travel to the USA one day, I'd like to hear what kinds of situations you might end up in playing games like this.

joezydeco 13y ago
The short and general answer is that the border entry area, where you are typically interacting with US Customs, is a "no-man's land" and you basically have zero rights in that zone. That goes for US citizens as well. The simplest result is that they can turn you away from the USA and send you back on the next flight if they think you're a problem or unqualified to enter. You may also be detained and things get worse from there. Carrying a laptop without a charger is not a solution at all. The hard drive can be extracted and read apart from the machine. Same for your phone/SD cards/external disks, etc. The safest way to enter the US it seems is to carry completely blank devices, if you need to carry them at all.
- Crito 13y ago
  If you are a US citizen who continuously gets refused reentry at the border, what would happen if you snuck across? Presumably once you were across the border you would have rights again and could not be removed from the US. I imagine you would be arrested, but at least you would be officially back in the system, right?
  - VLM 13y ago
    Its very difficult to be refused entry as a citizen. Not impossible, but very difficult. They can F with you WRT interrogation pretty much as they please until you give up or contact a lawyer, or state a belief in your being intoxicated until you get a lawyer and/or blood test, or mess with your belongings (YOU can enter but not that bottle of tequilla and not (you+the bottle)). Another way to mess with you is dual citizenship type stuff like you've legally become a citizen of Canada but haven't officially renounced US citizenship yet. They can also threaten to arrest you if you persist in trying to gain entry while illegally importing something, like, say, a bottle of tequilla or the clothes on your back. The most effective way to be refused entry as a citizen is to be drunk (aka the whole so-cal/tijuana thing). I've heard stories from coworkers who used to visit tijuana back when it was safe (or at least, safer). I'd be mildly interested in any story of a citizen actually being denied (as opposed to them screwing around with obnoxious drunks). Or great Tijuana stories, for that matter.
    - Crito 13y ago
      I suppose the best way to handle this sort of situation would be to refuse the search, turn back away from the border, figure out somebody to hold onto your computer (mail it to a friend in the US? It would cross customs, but maybe you could hope it wouldn't be randomly searched. Alternatively just copy the drive to the internet, then trash or sell the hardware), then approach the border again without the computer. They cannot turn you away for refusing to let them search a computer if you do not have a computer.
      - VLM 13y ago
        Keep the data remote via VPN/SSH/rdesktop/VNC, and the appliance is a lump of hardware that can be reinstalled. This is easy with a laptop running vanilla Debian, not so easy to wipe/reinstall some appliances.
  - rbobby 13y ago
    > and could not be removed from the US Nope. You'd be deported. Probably held in a jail (or jail like) facility until you were placed on a plane/bus. You would however have full benefit of the constitution, so anything found during an illegal search probably could not be used against you (assuming you can prove that a search took place and that the search was illegal).
- ThatGeoGuy 13y ago
  > The hard drive can be extracted and read apart from the machine. Same for your phone/SD cards/external disks, etc. Perhaps, but in this case we can assume encryption works. They can't expect you to unencrypt the drive if you don't have a power source. And really, they have less leverage to bully you into needing to operate the computer for security reasons, especially if you can show there's no way the computer can operate during flight.
  - joezydeco 13y ago
    If you think the US government will just throw up their hands and let you pass because they can't instantly turn on the computer, I don't know what to tell you. If they want the data, they'll get it. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/02/laptop-decryption-appeal-rejected/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/02/laptop-decryption-a...
- fractallyte 13y ago
  This has always bothered me: if it's a "no-man's land", then the situation is symmetrical: they have no rights either. Has this ever been tested in court?
  - joezydeco 13y ago
    It's not symmetrical at all. The border patrol and homeland security are charged with defending the borders of the USA. You, as a traveller approaching the border, are physically on USA soil interacting with government agents/citizens but in the eyes of the government you have not entered the USA yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
twobits 13y ago
"As somebody who may travel to the USA one day" Well, if you remove this requirement, I have a solution for you.
SamReidHughes 13y ago
Customs is not the TSA.
chrissnell 13y ago
What you'd want is an encryption system that had two passwords: one that was accepted and caused the de-encryption of a volume of data that looked real, plausible, and had recent atime/mtime timestamps but wasn't actually your secret data. You would also have a second password, the existence of which you wouldn't reveal, that would also be accepted but result in the de-encryption of your true volume with your secret data. I think truecrypt has something like this but I wouldn't trust truecrypt to my data. Not in this day and age.

joezydeco 13y ago

The short and general answer is that the border entry area, where you are typically interacting with US Customs, is a "no-man's land" and you basically have zero rights in that zone. That goes for US citizens as well. The simplest result is that they can turn you away from the USA and send you back on the next flight if they think you're a problem or unqualified to enter. You may also be detained and things get worse from there. Carrying a laptop without a charger is not a solution at all. The hard drive can be extracted and read apart from the machine. Same for your phone/SD cards/external disks, etc. The safest way to enter the US it seems is to carry completely blank devices, if you need to carry them at all.

Crito 13y ago
If you are a US citizen who continuously gets refused reentry at the border, what would happen if you snuck across? Presumably once you were across the border you would have rights again and could not be removed from the US. I imagine you would be arrested, but at least you would be officially back in the system, right?
- VLM 13y ago
  Its very difficult to be refused entry as a citizen. Not impossible, but very difficult. They can F with you WRT interrogation pretty much as they please until you give up or contact a lawyer, or state a belief in your being intoxicated until you get a lawyer and/or blood test, or mess with your belongings (YOU can enter but not that bottle of tequilla and not (you+the bottle)). Another way to mess with you is dual citizenship type stuff like you've legally become a citizen of Canada but haven't officially renounced US citizenship yet. They can also threaten to arrest you if you persist in trying to gain entry while illegally importing something, like, say, a bottle of tequilla or the clothes on your back. The most effective way to be refused entry as a citizen is to be drunk (aka the whole so-cal/tijuana thing). I've heard stories from coworkers who used to visit tijuana back when it was safe (or at least, safer). I'd be mildly interested in any story of a citizen actually being denied (as opposed to them screwing around with obnoxious drunks). Or great Tijuana stories, for that matter.
  - Crito 13y ago
    I suppose the best way to handle this sort of situation would be to refuse the search, turn back away from the border, figure out somebody to hold onto your computer (mail it to a friend in the US? It would cross customs, but maybe you could hope it wouldn't be randomly searched. Alternatively just copy the drive to the internet, then trash or sell the hardware), then approach the border again without the computer. They cannot turn you away for refusing to let them search a computer if you do not have a computer.
    - VLM 13y ago
      Keep the data remote via VPN/SSH/rdesktop/VNC, and the appliance is a lump of hardware that can be reinstalled. This is easy with a laptop running vanilla Debian, not so easy to wipe/reinstall some appliances.
- rbobby 13y ago
  > and could not be removed from the US Nope. You'd be deported. Probably held in a jail (or jail like) facility until you were placed on a plane/bus. You would however have full benefit of the constitution, so anything found during an illegal search probably could not be used against you (assuming you can prove that a search took place and that the search was illegal).
ThatGeoGuy 13y ago
> The hard drive can be extracted and read apart from the machine. Same for your phone/SD cards/external disks, etc. Perhaps, but in this case we can assume encryption works. They can't expect you to unencrypt the drive if you don't have a power source. And really, they have less leverage to bully you into needing to operate the computer for security reasons, especially if you can show there's no way the computer can operate during flight.
- joezydeco 13y ago
  If you think the US government will just throw up their hands and let you pass because they can't instantly turn on the computer, I don't know what to tell you. If they want the data, they'll get it. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/02/laptop-decryption-appeal-rejected/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/02/laptop-decryption-a...
fractallyte 13y ago
This has always bothered me: if it's a "no-man's land", then the situation is symmetrical: they have no rights either. Has this ever been tested in court?
- joezydeco 13y ago
  It's not symmetrical at all. The border patrol and homeland security are charged with defending the borders of the USA. You, as a traveller approaching the border, are physically on USA soil interacting with government agents/citizens but in the eyes of the government you have not entered the USA yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

twobits 13y ago

"As somebody who may travel to the USA one day" Well, if you remove this requirement, I have a solution for you.

SamReidHughes 13y ago

Customs is not the TSA.

chrissnell 13y ago

What you'd want is an encryption system that had two passwords: one that was accepted and caused the de-encryption of a volume of data that looked real, plausible, and had recent atime/mtime timestamps but wasn't actually your secret data. You would also have a second password, the existence of which you wouldn't reveal, that would also be accepted but result in the de-encryption of your true volume with your secret data. I think truecrypt has something like this but I wouldn't trust truecrypt to my data. Not in this day and age.