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You seem very opinionated about this. I haven't given this as much thought as you have, but I think that doing something to protect your society from evil must

• fit2rule 13y ago
  Yes, I do. The reason is because I think that anyone whose job it is to murder, maim, kill - officially, with sanction from the state - and who chooses to do this as a career is a very, very sick individual. We do not need a military that can deliver a bomb on some individuals head at the drop of a whim - we need an organization that makes peace, for the state, far more.
  • dreamfactory 13y ago
    The usual argument is that such people 'occur naturally' and the army at least directs their activities outwards (it forms the distinction between grunt and officer class in the forces). I don't agree with the premise but it's a nature vs nurture question.
    • fit2rule 13y ago
      I don't buy the justification. We can choose not to kill people. We can choose to spend our time educating people, instead. Those who join the military, subjugate themselves to others, and stop making choices. This is a contagious disease, not some 'normality' about human existence...
      • dasil003 13y ago
        Violence is a part of nature, and humans are evolved to participate in it like all animals. It only becomes evil in the context of human values, where I agree there is no reason for people to be killing each other. However the ability and taste for killing is a genetic trait that has been valuable for some individuals over time, so don't fool yourself that some people aren't genetically primed to be killers.
        • fit2rule 13y ago
          Humans can choose to be non-violent. This is what makes us human. The moment you remove that choice - either personally or socially - you become an animal, again. Genetic traits? Well, we've overcome them before, with our free will - we'll do it again. We had lots of genetic traits that predetermined our inability to live on the Moon - but we soon decided that wasn't going to get in our way. Why can't we do the same thing with War? Because viewpoints such as yours are contagious diseases which fester in the mind of Mankind, and very few are ever prepared to cure themselves of it.
          • dasil003 13y ago
            > viewpoints such as yours are contagious diseases Way to take an even-handed comment like mine stating facts with minimal value judgements and attempt to turn it into fuel for your idealogical steamroller. The only problem is you didn't really read and comprehend what I said.
            • fit2rule 13y ago
              The problem is, you don't realize what you are saying can be used by those who wish to murder to continue to do so. Yes, your point of view, since it is used tirelessly as a justification, is responsible for continued crimes against humanity.
              • dasil003 13y ago
                The way you express your point of view will never change a single person's mind.
                • fit2rule 13y ago
                  I have not found that to be even remotely true.
      • giardini 13y ago
        Your killer is a straw man - someone who seeks to only kill more, to become the most murderous possible person (s)he can, a "Hannibal Lector" of vengeance w/o the epicurean instinct. Then you've further demonized him/her. This is paranoid idealization. But some notes: fit2rule: "when you are in the business of killing, murdering, maiming other human beings, you're no longer really part of society" Soldiering sometimes requires killing. So soldiers are no longer part of society? What about the executive branch of our government (which issues the orders to soldiers)? fit2rule: "we in the 'normal' society don't have a clue what those in the 'murdering business society' really think about us"..."This is a contagious disease, not some 'normality' about human existence..." Murderous thoughts run through the minds of people everyday. They don't usually act on them but they are there. It's part of our nature: we've always done it. Here's a famous quote: "I am a man: I hold that nothing human is alien to me." - Terence For a history of killing and how the responsibility has shifted from the individual to the government: "Why They Kill: The Discoveries of a Maverick Criminologist" by Richard Rhodes. fit2rule: "the 'official killers' really don't care about human life" Categorical nonsense. People love their spouses, children, family and friends. Soldiers are people as are Presidents. Even psychopaths love and protect their children (usually). All will protect the ones they love from those who they fear will cause harm. fit2rule: "if you get up in the morning with the intention of taking a human life, if ordered to do so, then you no longer belong to the human race." ..."Anyone who claims to have the right to kill others - for any reason whatsoever - should be treated by greater society as anti-human"... "anyone whose job it is to murder, maim, kill - officially, with sanction from the state - and who chooses to do this as a career is a very, very sick individual." You're out on a limb here- this is simply a rhetorical blast. I fail to see how being a killer makes you inhuman. I don't know how you would treat someone as "anti-human" - possibly kill them?!8-\
        • fit2rule 13y ago
          Look around you. What is the rarest substance in all the universe? Life. Why should we remove it from the face of the Earth, if we haven't yet engaged it in conversation? Every villager killed is a missed opportunity to educate, enlighten, and liberate - both parties. The point is this: there isn't enough evidence to support killing, and more than sufficient evidence to support not killing. Yet, it still happens - and the reason why is, the people have not woken up to the fact that they are responsible for the actions of their State, and that they do deserve whatever comes to them when they let their State murder, maim, kill.
    • DominikR 13y ago
      And what should we do with such people if we have no wars where we can direct their activities to? Randomly start wars just to keep them occupied with something? I'm pretty sure that those people are actually very rare and that most people that join the military do it because of patriotism and propaganda. Most soldiers probably don't know what they will be facing and how it will affect them in a negative way, which would explain the high suicide rate.
      • aestra 13y ago
        In my experience the vast majority of people join the military for job opportunities and benefits. I know more military members than average I would say. My husband and many of my friends being active duty, my father, grandfather, some friends, and the majority of my uncles being vets. The military doesn’t commit suicide at a significantly higher rate than the general population. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/02/02/but-there-isnt-an-epidemic-of-suicide-in-the-us-military/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/02/02/but-there...
  • mikeash 13y ago
    "...we need an organization that makes peace, for the state, far more." What does such an organization look like, and how does it work? It's very easy to say that we should just stop killing people and instead make peace. It's extremely difficult to put forth a realistic plan that accomplishes that.
    • fit2rule 13y ago
      Imagine if the resources being used to develop drones and bombs and other killing robots were instead being used to develop tools that would improve the lives of your average Afghani child. This would be a far more honorable investment than the current situation. Yes, I'm not sure I know what it would look like, but I'm pretty sure that its possible to develop the "B1 bomber" of education systems. I'm quite sure that the technology being used to deliver death from the skies can instead be used to improve the agricultural requirements of the average Afghani village. Heck, even an AK47 can be turned into a water pump, given the right intentions ..
      • sliverstorm 13y ago
        This would be a far more honorable investment than the current situation. Honorable and effective are not the same. Seriously, the problem is hardly farming. The world has thousands of years of farming development, and Afghanistan has been farmed for just as long. Nor is the problem education systems. The problem is political, and I fail to see how we can drop K-12 educations on people who aren't allowed to or are unwilling to learn. But, of course, you appear to be a flower hippie pretty dead-set in your ways, so I don't really hope to change your mind. You keep working on that B2 Tulip Bomber- I'm sure if we can only manage to bomb Afghanistan with flowers & love, world peace will be immediately achieved.
        • fit2rule 13y ago
          It is points of views such as yours which stand in the way of true peace being attained in the world. The problem is, and always has been: education. What sort of education gets delivered to the village when the US maims half its children, kills its elders, and terrorizes its mothers?
• belorn 13y ago
  > "but I think that doing something to protect your society from evil must count for something." A very much black-and-white description of the current war. "Evil" is actually the most descriptive form about an enemy that can't be specified, a war that selects its foes arbitrary and which lacks any specific goals for winning. Lacking all that, all a person can say is: "we are protecting the good side that is us from the evil that are them". There is no more specific way to describe it, which also means it can never actually end.
• 7952 13y ago
  These soldiers are facing a huge personal price for the part they played in this war. The psychological impact of "just following orders" is huge and could damage them for the rest of their lives. We should respect veterans because of the personal cost, not because of the benefits (imagined or otherwise). You may see it a good vs evil, but I doubt that many of the victims do.
  • pkinsky 13y ago
    >These soldiers are facing a huge personal price for the part they played in this war. The psychological impact of "just following orders" is huge and could damage them for the rest of their lives. We should respect veterans because of the personal cost, not because of the benefits (imagined or otherwise). You may see it a good vs evil, but I doubt that many of the victims do. Not to equate the Army with the Mafia, but this argument applies equally well to mafiosos. Both follow orders, do evil things, and suffer PTSD.
• wreegab 13y ago
  > "I think that doing something to protect your society from evil must count for something. Do you really see it as black and white as you describe it?" There is something ironic in there.
  • marcosdumay 13y ago
    There is also a prisioner's dilema in there. That's the entire problem.
  • neals 13y ago
    Care the clarify so I can proof you wrong?