5 ms·

I am not a libertarian and do not have a political agenda, but it is imaginable that certain parts of the government could be replaced with the structure like t

by greyman 13y ago

I am not a libertarian and do not have a political agenda, but it is imaginable that certain parts of the government could be replaced with the structure like this one. I don't know how the transition could happen, but at the end, the mining in the network will be done by citizens, bitcoins will be named "bitvotes", and every citizen will mine those bitvotes, or they could be distributed fairy (one bitvote to each citizen). Then, the citizens could vote about anything with those bitvotes, and the bitcoin technology ensures that the voting is provably fair and verification of the correct voting results doesn't require any third party. But again, this is not my agenda and I don't know if it would be good; I just say that the bitcoin technology invention allows this to happen.

ReidZB 13y ago
Such a scheme has a huge flaw: it allows extortion/coercion. Suppose I am a mob boss and I wish to become (insert position here). I send my goons to inform you that voting for me is a wise decision because I can offer you protection from the vicious thugs in the area. It would be a shame if the vicious thugs burned your house down, wouldn't it? So, you'd be forced to reveal your bitvote address to me under threat of violence. Once you vote, I just check that you voted for me. And if you didn't... A real cryptographic voting system goes to great lengths to prevent this scenario. In such a system, a voter can prove to himself that his vote counted toward the proper party, but crucially the voter cannot prove such to anyone else. This prevents coercion. Of course, real cryptographic voting systems have a bunch of other nice properties, but this is a really major one that most people overlook. Example of a cryptographic voting system: Helios (https://vote.heliosvoting.org/ https://vote.heliosvoting.org/). Also see the tech docs (http://documentation.heliosvoting.org/verification-specs/helios-v3-verification-specs http://documentation.heliosvoting.org/verification-specs/hel...). Helios is an online system, so it's not ready for prime-time voting --- it would need to be adapted into an in-person scheme, which cryptographers have already created --- but it does demonstrate the concepts involved. This is an area of active research, BTW.
- jellicle 13y ago
  It's not a huge flaw, since our current voting system (in any country you care to name) allows exactly that, and your scenario is not observed in the wild, since it is illegal.
  - tishcros91 13y ago
    It's such a blessing that nothing illegal is ever observed in the wild.
  - lukeschlather 13y ago
    i don't think you properly understand the objection. the mob boss may threaten but cannot legally know what you vote
  - ReidZB 13y ago
    The typical US voting system allows coercion? When I voted, I went into a publicly visible booth, recorded my vote, pressed submit, and went about my business. I suppose I could have been forced to take a picture with a cellphone, but I could have just selected the option they wanted, taken the picture, and then swapped back to the candidate I wanted. Is there something I'm missing here? Any way you slice it, even if the current system allows coercion, if we're talking about cryptographic voting systems, we might as well use ones that don't suffer the same issue. > your scenario is not observed in the wild, since it is illegal. I don't mean to be snide, but I've witnessed a great deal of illegal things, so "since it is illegal" is not that convincing. Even if you discount the threat of violence because of the possibility of police intervention (e.g. you report being threatened), consider the notion of vote buying: a rich person just says they'll pay you lots of money to vote for them. This isn't necessarily something people would want to report, given the possibility of financial benefit, especially if the person is down on their luck. At any rate, if electoral fraud is something that is "not observed in the wild", people sure do make a big fuss over it (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud for some references).
    - jellicle 13y ago
      You perhaps are not aware of absentee voting.
- benihana 13y ago
  >it allows extortion/coercion. Suppose I am a mob boss and I wish to become (insert position here). I send my goons to inform you that voting for me is a wise decision because I can offer you protection from the vicious thugs in the area. It would be a shame if the vicious thugs burned your house down, wouldn't it? How is this different than what currently happens?
  - NickSharp 13y ago
    Our current voting system has an emphasis on the secret ballot. There are records of which polling place a person voted at, and whether they showed up to vote, but (in theory) there's no way to tell which of the thousands of ballots from that polling place match to which individual voter.
    - alttab 13y ago
      But there is also no way for us the verify a valid and safe vote. Especially with our lively die bold machines. I'll take the thugs, give me a fair vote.
      - XorNot 13y ago
        Or you know, just get rid of the diebold machines and do a hand count?
        baddox 13y ago
        Whose hands?
        lmm 13y ago
        People from several parties, in a public, observed location. It's not hard; it works here in the UK, and it worked in the US before all this voting machine nonsense started.
    - baddox 13y ago
- lukifer 13y ago
  I think there is a simple way to counter-act vote buying/coercion: if the voter has a mechanism to cheat the cheater. If I can accept a hundred bucks to vote A, then walk around the corner and change my vote to B in secret, it creates sufficient disincentive to buy or coerce votes.
  - brazzy 13y ago
    You mean, exactly like the system we use in the real world?
DrJokepu 13y ago
Voting is a solved problem. I’m not saying that the idea of using bitcoin technology to solve problems beside monetary systems is a bad idea (in fact, I think it’s a very interesting concept), but really, democracies around the world already have established and efficient voting systems that work well enough.
- aaren 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore (Admittedly over a decade old now) I think the point is that our current voting systems require a measure of trust, where a blockchain based system could be trustless.
  - SectioAurea 13y ago
    This is the key point where the public blockchain seems to be of use for voting: transparency, which we have zero of in current machine systems.
- greyman 13y ago
  Yes, but you need a trusted authority. But I probably didn't explain it well enough. I didn't mean that you would vote which politicians will rule, you would vote on concrete decisions state such make. Nowadays, you vote politicians and they make decisions, and with blockchain network, you would directly vote for such decisions, making the politicians an unnecessary layer. ;-)
  - d23 13y ago
    I hire politicians for the exact reason that I cannot possibly become informed and make intelligent decisions on all of the issues that affect me.
    - Rhapso 13y ago
      And you expect them to be able to?
SectioAurea 13y ago
I explore some of the possibilities of achieving transparency and trust in government through blockchain records here: http://www.wallstreetcrypto.com/2013/12/distributed-anonymous-government-fourth.html http://www.wallstreetcrypto.com/2013/12/distributed-anonymou...
nickbauman 13y ago
Ah, then everyone will be bitvoting for the candidate that will get them the widest-screen TV possible.
blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
That is a fundamentally bad idea. Votes and "dollars", what ever your concept of dollar is, should never be the same thing.
- lectrick 13y ago
  I assume you're against all forms of lobbying, then?

by greyman 13y ago

ReidZB 13y ago

Such a scheme has a huge flaw: it allows extortion/coercion. Suppose I am a mob boss and I wish to become (insert position here). I send my goons to inform you that voting for me is a wise decision because I can offer you protection from the vicious thugs in the area. It would be a shame if the vicious thugs burned your house down, wouldn't it? So, you'd be forced to reveal your bitvote address to me under threat of violence. Once you vote, I just check that you voted for me. And if you didn't... A real cryptographic voting system goes to great lengths to prevent this scenario. In such a system, a voter can prove to himself that his vote counted toward the proper party, but crucially the voter cannot prove such to anyone else. This prevents coercion. Of course, real cryptographic voting systems have a bunch of other nice properties, but this is a really major one that most people overlook. Example of a cryptographic voting system: Helios (https://vote.heliosvoting.org/ https://vote.heliosvoting.org/). Also see the tech docs (http://documentation.heliosvoting.org/verification-specs/helios-v3-verification-specs http://documentation.heliosvoting.org/verification-specs/hel...). Helios is an online system, so it's not ready for prime-time voting --- it would need to be adapted into an in-person scheme, which cryptographers have already created --- but it does demonstrate the concepts involved. This is an area of active research, BTW.

jellicle 13y ago
It's not a huge flaw, since our current voting system (in any country you care to name) allows exactly that, and your scenario is not observed in the wild, since it is illegal.
- tishcros91 13y ago
  It's such a blessing that nothing illegal is ever observed in the wild.
- lukeschlather 13y ago
  i don't think you properly understand the objection. the mob boss may threaten but cannot legally know what you vote
- ReidZB 13y ago
  The typical US voting system allows coercion? When I voted, I went into a publicly visible booth, recorded my vote, pressed submit, and went about my business. I suppose I could have been forced to take a picture with a cellphone, but I could have just selected the option they wanted, taken the picture, and then swapped back to the candidate I wanted. Is there something I'm missing here? Any way you slice it, even if the current system allows coercion, if we're talking about cryptographic voting systems, we might as well use ones that don't suffer the same issue. > your scenario is not observed in the wild, since it is illegal. I don't mean to be snide, but I've witnessed a great deal of illegal things, so "since it is illegal" is not that convincing. Even if you discount the threat of violence because of the possibility of police intervention (e.g. you report being threatened), consider the notion of vote buying: a rich person just says they'll pay you lots of money to vote for them. This isn't necessarily something people would want to report, given the possibility of financial benefit, especially if the person is down on their luck. At any rate, if electoral fraud is something that is "not observed in the wild", people sure do make a big fuss over it (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud for some references).
  - jellicle 13y ago
    You perhaps are not aware of absentee voting.
benihana 13y ago
>it allows extortion/coercion. Suppose I am a mob boss and I wish to become (insert position here). I send my goons to inform you that voting for me is a wise decision because I can offer you protection from the vicious thugs in the area. It would be a shame if the vicious thugs burned your house down, wouldn't it? How is this different than what currently happens?
- NickSharp 13y ago
  Our current voting system has an emphasis on the secret ballot. There are records of which polling place a person voted at, and whether they showed up to vote, but (in theory) there's no way to tell which of the thousands of ballots from that polling place match to which individual voter.
  - alttab 13y ago
    But there is also no way for us the verify a valid and safe vote. Especially with our lively die bold machines. I'll take the thugs, give me a fair vote.
    - XorNot 13y ago
      Or you know, just get rid of the diebold machines and do a hand count?
      - baddox 13y ago
        Whose hands?
        lmm 13y ago
        People from several parties, in a public, observed location. It's not hard; it works here in the UK, and it worked in the US before all this voting machine nonsense started.
  - baddox 13y ago
lukifer 13y ago
I think there is a simple way to counter-act vote buying/coercion: if the voter has a mechanism to cheat the cheater. If I can accept a hundred bucks to vote A, then walk around the corner and change my vote to B in secret, it creates sufficient disincentive to buy or coerce votes.
- brazzy 13y ago
  You mean, exactly like the system we use in the real world?

DrJokepu 13y ago

Voting is a solved problem. I’m not saying that the idea of using bitcoin technology to solve problems beside monetary systems is a bad idea (in fact, I think it’s a very interesting concept), but really, democracies around the world already have established and efficient voting systems that work well enough.

aaren 13y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore (Admittedly over a decade old now) I think the point is that our current voting systems require a measure of trust, where a blockchain based system could be trustless.
- SectioAurea 13y ago
  This is the key point where the public blockchain seems to be of use for voting: transparency, which we have zero of in current machine systems.
greyman 13y ago
Yes, but you need a trusted authority. But I probably didn't explain it well enough. I didn't mean that you would vote which politicians will rule, you would vote on concrete decisions state such make. Nowadays, you vote politicians and they make decisions, and with blockchain network, you would directly vote for such decisions, making the politicians an unnecessary layer. ;-)
- d23 13y ago
  I hire politicians for the exact reason that I cannot possibly become informed and make intelligent decisions on all of the issues that affect me.
  - Rhapso 13y ago
    And you expect them to be able to?

SectioAurea 13y ago

I explore some of the possibilities of achieving transparency and trust in government through blockchain records here: http://www.wallstreetcrypto.com/2013/12/distributed-anonymous-government-fourth.html http://www.wallstreetcrypto.com/2013/12/distributed-anonymou...

nickbauman 13y ago

Ah, then everyone will be bitvoting for the candidate that will get them the widest-screen TV possible.

blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago

That is a fundamentally bad idea. Votes and "dollars", what ever your concept of dollar is, should never be the same thing.

lectrick 13y ago
I assume you're against all forms of lobbying, then?