4 ms·

iA makes patent threats

22 points by shawndumas 13y ago

Touche 13y ago
Finally I agree with Marco completely.
- mrich 13y ago
  Except Apple uses their patents offensively, even trolling with them, but he prefers attacking a small developer since he may be affected this time.
rbanffy 13y ago
> I see no reason to support any small developers who file for patents. So, what if Apple, or Google, or Microsoft, or Oracle decide they like feature F and implement it in one of their applications that compete with whatever the small patent holder does?
- thomholwerda 13y ago
  Seeing a fervent Apple supporter cry foul over iA even though Apple does the exact same thing all the time is... Beyond belief.
  - Touche 13y ago
    In this case the thing iA tried to copyright was one of Apple's own APIs.
    - jrnkntl 13y ago
      NSLinguisticTagger that is, for anyone wondering. https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/cocoa/reference/NSLinguisticTagger_Class/Reference/Reference.html https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/cocoa/...
    - rbanffy 13y ago
      If it's a bad patent (as is so common with software patents) we have a different problem. One that will, eventually, solve itself in a most spectacular way.
- jorde 13y ago
  It doesn't really matter if a small player holds a patent as they won't have enough resources to start fighting against big guys. Patents don't protect products, good products and brands do.
  - rbanffy 13y ago
    The small actor can sell the eventual profits from the patent to someone with the resources to fight.
steveklabnik 13y ago
I may just be a bit slow today, but I fail to see how a patent obtained by a small company can not also be defensive. Also, note that they've recanted, as the linked article states: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ias-militant-stance-on-syntax-control http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ia...
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  Here's the problem with patents: if you file for a patent, you are basically manufacturing intellectual land mines. Both the ethics and mechanics involved are chillingly analogous. Yes, they can be used defensively against a specific enemy. The vast majority will never explode at all, although they will still cost money to deploy. The few that do eventually go off are likely to injure uninvolved parties who didn't see what they were stepping on -- people and companies who may not even have been born when you tightened the last screw. Your creation will remain dangerous for decades, long past the point when it could conceivably benefit your country's economy as a whole. The people who are paying you to build the land mine have interests that are different from yours -- perhaps that's not true at the moment, but it almost certainly will be in the future. They are very likely to sell your handiwork to someone else, perhaps under financial or legal duress. This may happen several times before the explosives in your creation decay into harmlessness. Chances are, any influence you may have when you manufacture your mine will only diminish with time. It is not only possible but likely that what you are building will fall into the hands of people whose interests and values are far removed from your own. Of course, it's unlikely that you will be the one who eventually steps on your own mine. Whether that makes a difference to you depends on -- and speaks volumes about -- your character as an engineer.
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    Sure. I don't agree with software patents. This story doesn't really answer my question.
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
james33 13y ago
I completely disagree with this sentiment and find this "article" to be a huge turnoff. But, thanks for making me aware of iA Writer Pro, you just got iA a new sale.
jorde 13y ago
I side with Marco on this but I think he should update the original post on new developments: iA decided to drop the patent application yesterday [1]. Regardless, their original attitude towards this issue was enough for me to decide not to support future iA products. [1]: https://twitter.com/iA/status/416393539182796800 https://twitter.com/iA/status/416393539182796800
btucker 13y ago
And yet making threats using the bully pulpit that comes with having a popular internet personality is just fine.
michaelmartin 13y ago
It's worth considering how poorly handled the communications were here. No blog posts, no responses to the forum thread that mostly started all of this [1], nor the story that hit HN's front page [2]. Just Twitter. Which is something, but not enough when you have a PR issue this big... [1]: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ias-militant-stance-on-syntax-control http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ia... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6966528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6966528
adventured 13y ago
"But when a small company or independent developer files for a small number of patents, there’s no defensive value — they can only be used for offense." This is obviously not correct. 1) With the changes in patent law, it's now critical to be the first to file. It's not enough to just have proof that you did something / invented something before someone else. 2) A patent can be filed for the purpose of preventing a competitor or aggressor from acquiring said patent and using it offensively. This makes a lot of sense for small companies particularly if their business hinges on a specific technology that is even kinda-sorta original to said company, or if the company's prosperity depends on not getting hit by a patent lawsuit on some cornerstone aspect to their business.
vellum 13y ago
"Big companies like Google and Apple have defensible reasons to accumulate lots of patents: they need them for defense." About that... The Rockstar consortium is an organization backed by Apple, Microsoft, BlackBerry, Ericsson and Sony. It purchased patents off of the defunct telecommunications company Nortel in 2011, in a bidding war with Google. Now, the consortium has filed suit against Google, ASUSTek, HTC, Huawei, LG, Pantech and ZTE over those patents. http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/31/apple-microsoft-backed-rockstar-consortium-sues-google-samsung-over-7-nortel-patents/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/31/apple-microsoft-backed-rock...

22 points by shawndumas 13y ago

Touche 13y ago

Finally I agree with Marco completely.

mrich 13y ago
Except Apple uses their patents offensively, even trolling with them, but he prefers attacking a small developer since he may be affected this time.

rbanffy 13y ago

> I see no reason to support any small developers who file for patents. So, what if Apple, or Google, or Microsoft, or Oracle decide they like feature F and implement it in one of their applications that compete with whatever the small patent holder does?

thomholwerda 13y ago
Seeing a fervent Apple supporter cry foul over iA even though Apple does the exact same thing all the time is... Beyond belief.
- Touche 13y ago
  In this case the thing iA tried to copyright was one of Apple's own APIs.
  - jrnkntl 13y ago
    NSLinguisticTagger that is, for anyone wondering. https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/cocoa/reference/NSLinguisticTagger_Class/Reference/Reference.html https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/cocoa/...
  - rbanffy 13y ago
    If it's a bad patent (as is so common with software patents) we have a different problem. One that will, eventually, solve itself in a most spectacular way.
jorde 13y ago
It doesn't really matter if a small player holds a patent as they won't have enough resources to start fighting against big guys. Patents don't protect products, good products and brands do.
- rbanffy 13y ago
  The small actor can sell the eventual profits from the patent to someone with the resources to fight.

steveklabnik 13y ago

I may just be a bit slow today, but I fail to see how a patent obtained by a small company can not also be defensive. Also, note that they've recanted, as the linked article states: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ias-militant-stance-on-syntax-control http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ia...

CamperBob2 13y ago
Here's the problem with patents: if you file for a patent, you are basically manufacturing intellectual land mines. Both the ethics and mechanics involved are chillingly analogous. Yes, they can be used defensively against a specific enemy. The vast majority will never explode at all, although they will still cost money to deploy. The few that do eventually go off are likely to injure uninvolved parties who didn't see what they were stepping on -- people and companies who may not even have been born when you tightened the last screw. Your creation will remain dangerous for decades, long past the point when it could conceivably benefit your country's economy as a whole. The people who are paying you to build the land mine have interests that are different from yours -- perhaps that's not true at the moment, but it almost certainly will be in the future. They are very likely to sell your handiwork to someone else, perhaps under financial or legal duress. This may happen several times before the explosives in your creation decay into harmlessness. Chances are, any influence you may have when you manufacture your mine will only diminish with time. It is not only possible but likely that what you are building will fall into the hands of people whose interests and values are far removed from your own. Of course, it's unlikely that you will be the one who eventually steps on your own mine. Whether that makes a difference to you depends on -- and speaks volumes about -- your character as an engineer.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  Sure. I don't agree with software patents. This story doesn't really answer my question.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago

james33 13y ago

I completely disagree with this sentiment and find this "article" to be a huge turnoff. But, thanks for making me aware of iA Writer Pro, you just got iA a new sale.

jorde 13y ago

I side with Marco on this but I think he should update the original post on new developments: iA decided to drop the patent application yesterday [1]. Regardless, their original attitude towards this issue was enough for me to decide not to support future iA products. [1]: https://twitter.com/iA/status/416393539182796800 https://twitter.com/iA/status/416393539182796800

btucker 13y ago

And yet making threats using the bully pulpit that comes with having a popular internet personality is just fine.

michaelmartin 13y ago

It's worth considering how poorly handled the communications were here. No blog posts, no responses to the forum thread that mostly started all of this [1], nor the story that hit HN's front page [2]. Just Twitter. Which is something, but not enough when you have a PR issue this big... [1]: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ias-militant-stance-on-syntax-control http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/21/5234580/patent-pending-ia... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6966528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6966528

adventured 13y ago

"But when a small company or independent developer files for a small number of patents, there’s no defensive value — they can only be used for offense." This is obviously not correct. 1) With the changes in patent law, it's now critical to be the first to file. It's not enough to just have proof that you did something / invented something before someone else. 2) A patent can be filed for the purpose of preventing a competitor or aggressor from acquiring said patent and using it offensively. This makes a lot of sense for small companies particularly if their business hinges on a specific technology that is even kinda-sorta original to said company, or if the company's prosperity depends on not getting hit by a patent lawsuit on some cornerstone aspect to their business.

vellum 13y ago

"Big companies like Google and Apple have defensible reasons to accumulate lots of patents: they need them for defense." About that... The Rockstar consortium is an organization backed by Apple, Microsoft, BlackBerry, Ericsson and Sony. It purchased patents off of the defunct telecommunications company Nortel in 2011, in a bidding war with Google. Now, the consortium has filed suit against Google, ASUSTek, HTC, Huawei, LG, Pantech and ZTE over those patents. http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/31/apple-microsoft-backed-rockstar-consortium-sues-google-samsung-over-7-nortel-patents/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/31/apple-microsoft-backed-rock...