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The real use of money is to buy freedom

357 points by paraschopra 13y ago

ashray 13y ago
Great post Paras. However, I wish you would have addressed what you do with your new found financial freedom. I suppose running your business takes up most of your time. That's fine as long as it's enjoyable I guess. The question here is, if something, what would you have done differently ? Or, going forward, what are you going to do differently ? Also, the modern economy is poised against us in terms of preserving the value of our wealth. Because of this, I disagree with your final conclusion (the sweating over investments bit..). The hard part about money is making it, but it's also hard to keep it. Inflation eats away at what you have, furthermore, depending on your country (India in this case..) you don't have 250 years of documented economic history to make your investment decisions. If you've reached your financial goal, mine is 25x of annual expenses then yes, maybe you are truly financially independent and now free. You have literally bought freedom. You're right, materialistic pursuits will probably never lead to happiness. However, for some the road to financial independence is longer than others. And yes, many people lose the plot along the way ;) Maybe a more apt title for your post would be: "Having a successful business and a good amount of money buys you freedom" ? :)
- paraschopra 13y ago
  There's an interesting thread on Quora titled 'What does it feel like to be a self-made millionaire under the age of 25?' http://www.quora.com/Becoming-a-Millionaire/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-a-self-made-millionaire-under-the-age-of-25?share=1 http://www.quora.com/Becoming-a-Millionaire/What-does-it-fee... As you will read through it, terms like insecurity, worry, surprise on unchanged happiness levels would be quite common among the answers. I have been thinking a lot about investments and have concluded that my main criteria is minimum management. If an investment requires active maintenance and management, it's not for me (unless I'm doing it for charity). This excludes many common investments such real estate and stocks. With others (say fixed deposits, metals, etc.) the post-tax returns are less than inflation so it may not be wise. Right now I have decided to invest mostly in mutual funds. I'm okay with the risk because the biggest asset I have is myself. The insecurity about future never leaves us, but as long as I believe that I would be employable in future, I can always jump back. EDIT: added ?share=1 to the URL. Thanks Casseres.
  - ashray 13y ago
    Thanks for your response, the Quora thread is very interesting. Another question, and this is a little more personal. Also, I don't mean to be accusatory at all or anything of that sort so please don't take it that way. Do you feel any new found desire to help those less fortunate than you ? I don't mean by providing employment, etc. I'm sure you do plenty of that through your business. I just know plenty of fairly rich people who feel like they're not 'rich enough' to help those that are less fortunate (even people whose net worth is in the tens of millions!)
  - Casseres 13y ago
    Handy Tip: Add ?share=1 at the end of the URL so others don't have to log in to read all of the answers. Thanks for sharing, it was a good read.
dnautics 13y ago
By corollary, individual debt is fractional, voluntary slavery. Or possibly it goes the other way. By being wealthy the truest freedom you enjoy is not having to worry about owing anyone anything.
mpweiher 13y ago
"Money is coined freedom" - Fyodor Dostoevsky.
birken 13y ago
There is a really great article in The Atlantic (from 2011) called "Secret Fears of the Super-Rich" on this topic: Excerpt: The respondents turn out to be a generally dissatisfied lot, whose money has contributed to deep anxieties involving love, work, and family. Indeed, they are frequently dissatisfied even with their sizable fortunes. Most of them still do not consider themselves financially secure; for that, they say, they would require on average one-quarter more wealth than they currently possess. (Remember: this is a population with assets in the tens of millions of dollars and above.) Link: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/04/secret-fears-of-the-super-rich/308419/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/04/secret-f...
- rahimnathwani 13y ago
  I recall a colleague once (~10 years ago) telling me that some people he knew felt that 5k GBP would be enough to solve all of their (money) worries. I thought it absurd, i.e. too low given things like planning for old age. I guess there are people who would think my estimate too low if I said I needed 5m for the same purpose. (not saying 5m is the right number for me or anyone else.)
  - paraschopra 13y ago
    One of the projects I want to do is to map living expenses, inflation and life expectancy to know exactly how much money is "enough". My problem is that we forget that we tomorrow should be more valuable to us than today and by the time we get this realization, we might have lost many years (of adulthood).
    - monsterix 13y ago
      > One of the projects I want to do is to map living expenses, inflation and life expectancy to know exactly how much money is "enough". There you go: http://www.nileshtrivedi.com/2012/07/10/how-much-is-enough.html http://www.nileshtrivedi.com/2012/07/10/how-much-is-enough.h...
      - 13y ago
monkeyspaw 13y ago
>A life spent mostly hoarding money and possessions is a wasted life I find it interesting that an article whose tone is one of optimism is so judgmental.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  If you see something wrong with that statement, why not point it out? If someone said getting hooked on heroin and dying with 16 is a waste of a life, would you consider that judgemental, too? To me it's just obvious that people often confuse symbols and things, and not only hoard possessions and money, but other symbols as well. And if I forget that for a while, the advertisement geared towards them reminds me. If that is being judgemental, so be it. I like to think it as being unable to miss certain things.
- paraschopra 13y ago
  I wasn't being judgmental, mere factual. My hypothesis is that people want to maximize happiness/well-being and hoarding money and possessions is a suboptimal way of doing that. On a slightly related note, Sam Harris has written an excellent book 'The Moral Landscape' where he argues that science and scientists __should__ be judgmental towards morals and life choices.
- ashray 13y ago
  I think the takeaway is that life would be best spent finding out what it is that truly makes you happy and then pursuing that. A lot of people think 'more money' is the answer to that. More money is just a way to be able to pursue whatever you think will truly make you happy. Whether that's kayaking, kung-fu, dancing, golfing, getting laid, going out for dinner, going on vacation, etc. A means, not the end. Some people just lose the plot on the way and continue down the more money path forever. Those are the people who end up living to work and not working to live.
  - lucaspiller 13y ago
    > A lot of people think 'more money' is the answer to that. I'm don't believe this is true, at least directly. I believe people start out thinking that they just need to make X amount of money to fulfil their dreams. The problem is once they start earning money they start changing their lifestyle to match it. Once they are in this situation it is hard to give up the restaurants, cars and houses to chase their dream. As such they decide they want fancier restaurants, fancier cars and even bigger houses which requires more money. It's sad, but people who are comfortable are unlikely to change much, even if the result would make them a lot happier.
gprasanth 13y ago
"the pieces of green paper have value because everybody thinks they have value." Freedom is fallacy.
- paulhauggis 13y ago
  "Freedom is fallacy." Not really. Having money and working for myself means that I don't have to take orders from a boss or a manager that tells me I need to work another holiday or weekend..only because of their own incompetence. I can also take vacations when I want (which doesn't happen as much..because I do need to run a business) and I don't have to request a day off when I'm sick. This is freedom to me, even though it is based on a piece of paper that's worth is only in someone's mind. This is what I have been working on..for the last 8+ years and achieved it last year.
- Alexx 13y ago
  Those two statements don't really connect. Money has value because people think it does, but also because it represents economic value. Once you can buy enough economic output to sit at the top of maslow's triangle then you're free to pursue whatever arbitrary things you please. It's not an abstract concept, it's a cold hard fact that's held true for centuries.
forgottenpaswrd 13y ago
When you know self made millionaires you learn one thing: "Money is not wealth". Almost nobody that understands wealth holds money, money is a tool for exchanging things and its value decreases with time. They hold real state, they hold precious metals, they hold stock, they travel, they know people. The people that made money usually like making wealth and don't fear losing it so much, they learn all their life to handle risk with positive results. It is their children or grandchildren who fear it, because they don't. The good thing about being rich is that you could be poor whenever you want. You could also help lots of people in your life, which feels amazing.
- joosters 13y ago
  The good thing about being rich is that you could be poor whenever you want. What? Name some rich people who are now voluntarily poor! I'd happily bet that 99.9999% of multi-millionaires never choose to be poor in their lifetime. But I'm sure lots of them feel amazing about thinking how they could help people.
  - dobbsbob 13y ago
    I believe that was sarcasm however warren buffet is a good example. He's giving all his money away and leaving his kids squat because he doesn't want to create a legacy of trust fund descendants but they certainly won't be poor.
    - sumedh 13y ago
      > and leaving his kids squat His children's charities are getting billions of dollars as well.
    - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
      >He's giving all his money away and leaving his kids squat LOL!
  - hkmurakami 13y ago
    I do know one heir to millions who lives on the streets and dumpster dives, thinking that it is morally wrong for him to make use of his monetary advantages in any way. Obviously not the norm.
tluyben2 13y ago
After working very hard on things to 'make money' (no goal attached, just making money, boy I was naive) doing stuff I really didn't like to do (building large EJB based systems for banks/insurance and we had entity beans back then!), I had some realisation that actually, this sucks. I alienated my gf at the time, my friends, my family. I worked, 200+ people under me and it sucked. I thought about it a few days, sold off some stock to make sure I could have freedom. Which I also believe is the main goal of having money. No loans/mortgages, being able to do what you want. And then I started making companies again, doing about the same thing (without the entity beans, or beans at all :), but now it's fun. If it goes badly (the current crisis almost bankrupted one of my companies) I handle it like you are supposed to handle it; in a calculated, company-first, manner. And pull through stronger than before. If you don't have that freedom, you make decisions which often don't reflect the best interest of the company because, well, you cannot pay the rent or feed your family. I always believed in lots of interests and hobbies (my twitter feed must seem rather ADD, but I actually have a planned working day in which I get to do those things) as I think the biggest waste of life you can have is boredom and now I actually get to make companies around those things. Money in the bank gives you the balls and the contacts to do that while as before that wasn't even an option without right-out prostituting yourself. And the freedom to say no to something which would before have been (or have seemed like) a brilliant opportunity because you just don't want to. Freedom usually (unless there are health issues in your family/close friends) also buys you no stress which already comes from the above. But having my own fruit/vegetable garden and having the time to prune the trees and prepare nice food from it etc is very far removed from shit in styrofoam containers and not even tasting it during a client conference call. Edit: I forgot my new-found pet peeve with getting older; people get way to serious over 30. Life's a game and a short ride; money allows you to live it like that.
miles 13y ago
Tim O'Reilly on money: It’s easy to get caught up in the heady buzz of making money. You should regard money as fuel for what you really want to do, not as a goal in and of itself. Money is like gas in the car — you need to pay attention or you’ll end up on the side of the road — but a well-lived life is not a tour of gas stations! Source: http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-fir.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-...
- digitalengineer 13y ago
  With regards to the car narrative: "Money will take you where you want to go, but it will not replace you as the driver". (A. Rand of course).
- maxden 13y ago
  Beside the accidental car reference, this seems applicable to Elon Musk.
- rikacomet 13y ago
  perhaps, its this way, that earning money is so hard compared to other things we do in our life (except love), is we have to push our self so much, to earn it, but once we have enough.. we can't stop. Thats because its also incredibly hard to stop earning money once you know how to do it.
  - Artistry121 13y ago
    How hard is earning money? At least in America I know plenty of people who make money by sitting at a cash register ringing up items all day or sitting at a desk in air conditioning. Hard work is the farming and toiling that true advancements in technology, through trade, have made unnecessary and inefficient in today's world. In America everyone has access to more information than ever before, more comfort than ever before and many have to work less than ever before. Everything's amazing and no one is happy.
    - redblacktree 13y ago
blazespin 13y ago
The real use of money is to fund your next startup!
guard-of-terra 13y ago
My take: I really need to own a good apartment. Half commute time is a life changer; not having to cough up rent every month is a life changer; being able to rent it out and move to Southeast Asia and/or get unlimited run time for project/business/startup is a life changer. Once this is accomplished I never strictly 'need' to work unless I need something extravagant or more savings or family :) In theory anyway.
stmartin 13y ago
No, the real use of money is to serve as a medium of exchange, to ultimately be used in the service of others. Any notion of buying one's "freedom" is a delusion at best.
VladRussian2 13y ago
buy freedom? from whom are you going to buy it? who has a freedom for sale? do they have excess supply of it? or would they build a one for you? or are they going to sale you their own one?
tonylemesmer 13y ago
It's possible to go to Antarctica with someone else's money. That's the satisfying thing. Make it a win-win arrangement (I'm not talking about freeloading).
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  What are you talking about then?
downandout 13y ago
The importance of money is a matter of perspective. Anyone that has the author's attitude toward money has never been poor. Ask a homeless person, or any of the 50% of the US population that has a net worth of zero or less what their opinion on money is, and it will be markedly different than the author's. The opinion that money doesn't matter is a luxury that only the wealthy can afford.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  The author is from India. Based on that fact, there is a 95% chance that he lived most of his life in poverty comparable to the bottom 5% of Americans. See figure 7: http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/IW3P/IB/2012/11/06/000158349_20121106085546/Rendered/PDF/wps6259.pdf http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServ... It's also worth noting that he's writing this from the perspective of a far more materialistic and status-based society than the US.
  - hansy 13y ago
    I have grown up in a typical middle-class household where one is rightly nurtured into not being extravagant. I was taught to value money (which I thoroughly appreciate). Even though, in my childhood, I always got whatever I wanted, the truth is that I never wanted big, expensive toys. The author did not grow up in poverty.
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      Read the link I provided. India middle class < America poverty.
      - gress 13y ago
        That's laughable. It may be true purely from a global economic perspective where life is measured in dollars, but in quality of life and social terms it's absolutely false. India's middle class can typically own property and afford servants, and live a life that is far more pleasant than is available to those in poverty in the US.
vijayr 13y ago
We don’t make movies to make money, we make money to make more movies - Walt Disney
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  Heh. Not anymore: Disney implements a "vault", where they stop selling movies for a certain amount of time in order to drive new sales when they re-release.
  - ghaff 13y ago
    Disney was doing that with theatrical re-releases long before there was such a thing as a VCR--much less a DVD.
Joeboy 13y ago
A few years ago, after spending most of my adult life in voluntary-ish poverty I decided to spend a few years earning proper money. By which I mean, significantly more than my first world country's average salary but still peanuts in HN terms. The main differences it's made to me are: 1) I can afford to buy a home, which I expect to remove a large amount of bullshit from my life and makes me feel more secure about my future. 2) When my computer / bicycle / phone / printer / washing machine etc fails I can get the problem fixed without significant disruption to my life. This is probably a much bigger deal than anybody who's always been able to find money for these things realises. 4) It feels good to know I have earning ability if I put the effort in. 5) It's nice to be able to buy stuff, occasionally.
- dsirijus 13y ago
  I went a similar road (from $50 a month in an underground windowless garage with no utilities whatsoever, to a 200m2 penthouse). I'd put an accent on your point #2 - it really makes a huge difference to just shoot up some money into trivialities and mundane annoyances in your life just to make them magically go away. Because there's so many of them, most cannot afford that. I'd like to add a point though, maybe the most important in my list. 6) increased appeal to other sex. And as far as buying stuff goes, all my wordly posessions fit in one box less than in this picture https://www.dropbox.com/s/us8bavsdjldd029/2013-08-16%2005.42.28.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/us8bavsdjldd029/2013-08-16%2005.42...
  - hkmurakami 13y ago
    Was #6 because of how you dressed, or because you could host events at your new place, or some other factors? I'm curious since I have some acquaintances who are morbidly afraid of having members of the opposite sex approach them for their substantial wealth. They go out of their way to mask their material status.
    - dsirijus 13y ago
      I think most of the other points made are just a resultant from desire to appeal to other sex. Security, stuff, housing, all that. It is relatively trivial to sustain oneself, without family and other people dependant on you. Family is hard. And, spoken like a true life form, furthering our gene makeup is what it's all about, for the most part for the most of us. We can do Maslow's hierarchy here or some other model of motivation, but for me, this is the core of it in today's times. Disclaimer here being that I'm speaking from male perspective (and there's an obvious significant difference in motivations accross genders). As for your acquaintances, I'd doubt that it could be generalized to whole "rich" population. What your acquaintances have problem with is, well, their problem. Not a trend.
officemonkey 13y ago
Everybody just loves the word "freedom," like it's some magical super-juice which is the be-all and end-all of the American experience. We will all be free of obligation, pain, responsibility, and any other positive or negative thing soon enough. Instead of the pursuit of freedom, we should dedicate ourselves to obligations that honor ourselves and others. You don't really want "freedom," you want an obligation that you're excited about, you want a responsibility you're eager to take on, you want a job you love doing, you want a relationship that resonates with your values. Everyone shorthands this to "freedom," and sooner or later that becomes the goal instead of the individual obligations you're now able to pursue.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  I came to similar conclusions as the OP a few years ago but called it "flexibility" instead of "freedom". Or you might call it "the freedom to choose", which I think is quite different from vanilla overarching "freedom"
- Blahah 13y ago
  Once you have had your freedom forcefully removed, maintaining it becomes a major source of happiness. > You don't really want "freedom," you want an obligation that you're excited about, you want a responsibility you're eager to take on, you want a job you love doing, you want a relationship that resonates with your values. Absolutely this. "Freedom" encapsulates the state where you are able to pursue those smaller goals without other people or circumstances preventing you. That is something worth seeking. But it's always worth keeping in mind what you want the freedom for.
- Cookingboy 13y ago
  The more successful people can do things they want to do, and the most successful people can avoid doing things they don't want to do, I guess that in itself is freedom. Money purchases a lot of options, and on the surface, they are either freedom or provide the illusion of freedom.
- theorique 13y ago
  You don't really want "freedom," you want an obligation that you're excited about, you want a responsibility you're eager to take on, you want a job you love doing, you want a relationship that resonates with your values. And if those things are freely chosen by you, isn't that a good thing? Living your life as a doctor because that was where you were directed by your parents, rather than as the teacher you dream of being, is not where most people want to be. Freedom to choose valuable ways to make a contribution, is good. Freedom as ability to flit randomly from A to B to C, with no obligation or responsibility, is useless.
nihitdesai 13y ago
"we don't build services to make money; we make money to build better services" - Mark Zuckerberg in his letter to shareholders. "I don't intend to build in order to have more clients; I intend to have more clients in order to build" - Howard Roark in Fountainhead
kamaal 13y ago
>>A life spent mostly hoarding money and possessions is a wasted life Having seen the kind of advantage some of my friends born in rich families enjoy, I would love to hoard and posses tons of wealth even if its purely to give away in inheritance. Rich kids enjoy privileges and advantage poor kids can't even dream of. The biggest of which is attitude of course. Rich kids are born with an assumption they are supposed to remain rich forever, become leaders and are free to act as unfair as they want given the their 'natural selection' in becoming rich. No matter how hard you work, you will never be able to truly compete with a rich kid. He will get all the resources, tutions, fee and expenses taken care of to establish a more deeply entrenched position of advantage. The only real way is for you to exactly do what their parents did, and hope your kids will be better off. >>Then why do we run after money? Which brings me to the point, why did you start a company? Speaking purely from a philosophical point. There have been people in India, especially wandering monks who shown you can find all the bliss in life even on bare minimal survival gear. And there is no way you can match their freedom.
- base698 13y ago
  I think you've missed the point. The point is there is some amount of money that affords you the ability to do what you want. Possessions have the effect of tying you down. Buying a house, assuming you get a mortgage, is a huge expense requiring you to work to pay for it. It ties you to one geographical area and puts stress from having to make the payments. You could spend the downpayment on a house as a down payment of yourself. Find somewhere or something you'd rather do.
  - waylandsmithers 13y ago
    | Possessions have the effect of tying you down. This is getting to be a little off topic, but I see comments like this often from people who imagine a mortgage as a massive amount of debt hanging over your head. While I agree that home ownership is not the right move for everyone, and it's definitely true that you can't just up and leave, you can sell your house. It will probably take longer than the 30 or 60 days notice you would have to give to a landlord, but it's not as if you are signing a contract to live there for the next 30 years. | Buying a house, assuming you get a mortgage, is a huge expense requiring you to work to pay for it. Doesn't rent fit that description too? Unless you are crashing on someone's couch or living with your parents, housing is going to cost something. In my experience, first+last+deposit was the standard amount due upon moving in. At the end of the day you at least get to keep some of the money paid on a mortgage. Plus, if you do make it to the end of the loan, you could be paying the same monthly payment that you locked in 30 years ago, whereas rent will probably rise over time.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
The real use of money is to pay taxes.
vorg 13y ago
If you need money to buy it, it's not freedom, it's power.
graeme 13y ago
Freedom has been my main goal for money. As my business has grown I'm happier, but I can see the monetary goalposts shifting as I go. I started two years ago. My initial goal was to build recurring income. I wanted enough to cover expenses, as an initial goal. Achieved that. But I saw I was vulnerable to sudden expenses, or a temporary decline in business. So I wanted an emergency fund. Achieved that. But then I realized I had student loan debt that I would soon have to pay interest on, as I was earning more money and wouldn't qualify for debt relief in the near future. Had a really good autumn and achieved that. Then I noticed that I might have to pay more taxes, because my previous tuition tax credits may run out in 2013. Achieved that, which brings me to the present. I only achieved much of that savings through tutoring. I charge a high rate, but it's not scaleable. So now my current goal is increasingly recurring revenue so that I don't have to sell my time directly. Why am I writing this? At each one of these stages, I had the feeling "If I just achieve this goal, I'll have enough". It was a silly belief in retrospect – it would have been obvious to an outsider that I still had challenges to overcome. Yet presently, I have the feeling "if I double my recurring income, I'll have enough". But I'm certain that once I achieve this goal, I'll see another reason I ought to earn more. Probably the next goal will be "if I just achieve X, I can make work optional by age 33" or "if I just earn X, I won't have to worry about the cost of airfare for trips". I can attest that life IS better now that I've met the goals I listed above. I remember having lots of worries about money that have mostly dissipated. I haven't increased my lifestyle, and have been trying to keep "freedom" as the main goal for earning more money. But the whole process feels shockingly short-sighted. It's as though I'm incapable of imagining how I will feel if I am earning $X or have saved $X.
- suhastech 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
Tycho 13y ago
Another perspective I read recently is that 'time is the ultimate form of wealth.' Meaning that if you have a lot of money, you don't need to spend your time on things which do not interest you.
melling 13y ago
"A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do." - Bob Dylan
patmcdonald 13y ago
Disagree. Money does not equal freedom. I know plenty of poor people who live freely and plenty of wealthy people who feel trapped. What money really is is a placeholder for time.
keiferski 13y ago
Although I'm nowhere near financial freedom, I've been wondering lately what "freedom" means in a strictly material sense. Inflation, bad investments, etc. can eat away at a bank account. But material objects seem to be more secure. The problem, of course, is balancing this need for reliable physical possessions with my (and many other's) minimalistic tendencies and general dislike of "stuff". Here's what I've got so far: - a nice house in a nice neighborhood, tricked out with the best in security, fitness, intellectual and entertainment devices. Add in renewable energy sources via windmills/solar panels/ etc to truly be self-sufficient. - enough canned food and rice to last multiple lifetimes.
AndrewKemendo 13y ago
This article and the bulk of the comments strike me as shortsighted. Money is the driver of industry. The more you have, the more you can direct resources towards productive activity. The idea of money being freedom is a great comparison, which I make myself often. The OP and others here however largely limit their notions to hedonistic freedoms and critiquing buying "things." What about building that school or the playground in the neighborhood that can't afford it? What about funding fundamental research that is under funded right now? What about starting a job training program for the under employed. No, there is no such thing as too much money because there is no end to the things that need to be done in the world. So the whole conversation about enough is baffling.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Enough for an individual and enough for a community are different. I as an individual am not building any schools, because it would take many times my lifetime income and dominate my entire existence. Some people are born industrialists; the rest of us want our weekends and family.
jonsleet 13y ago
The "real" use of money is dominance. Between you and the things you need or want, money is a proxy controlling access to those things. Control the money, control the people.
glurgann 13y ago
I'm kind of disappointed, I was hoping for a bit more than a "rich people get obsessed with getting richer" type of story (still a good piece). Freedom is indeed bought with money, but not in the way that most people think. There's a shell game going on right now for the lowest class worker. At the time the US economy had it's "oh shit" moment around 2007-2008, I was working at a marketing research company. At the time I was working from home being paid by the hour, but there wasn't a lot of work coming in. I was broke most times after paying bills, so I had to find a quick patch job. I began working at a McDonald's. At this point I was staying available online for most of the day until the afternoon, at which I would go to McDonald's and work all night. I found a bartender gig and started to work that on my off days of McDonald's. At that point, I was making good money, but there wasn't any time I had to myself. I ended up quitting the marketing research job, as I was making more from McDonald's alone. Now I was making OK money, but still not having a single day off. The bartender gig was getting more and more violent (I worked at a rough R&B club getting paid under the table). I eventually left the bartending job (there was a shooting there less than a week later). I don't think I need to explain what life was like working only at McDonald's, even if I was being paid more than most non-managers. It's a bit hard to communicate what was exactly wrong with this picture. As a low wage worker, it was impossible for me to both have time and money, or leverage either of them to get myself into a better position. When I had money, I had no time to leverage it. I couldn't finish a degree, I couldn't even keep a girlfriend. It was easy to slip into depression and substance abuse. I drank a lot. When I did get the chance to go out and have fun, it was to the extreme. When I didn't have money but I had time, it was equally as bad. I couldn't go out to bars, I barely could keep up on bills. I couldn't take time off to go to the doctor. I couldn't afford to lose hours, nor afford the doctor's visit. When I had to go to the emergency room, I had to take the hit to my credit. I couldn't go across town or go to the show, I was behind on either electric or gas most months. And electric people have no qualms in shutting off your power and then laughing in your face when you say you can't even cook food. It's interesting to me that when you're in that trap, it's almost impossible to pull yourself out. On one end of the spectrum, if you have the money to better yourself, you don't have the time to do so. You can't leverage the three jobs on resumes, nor is that a replacement for a degree. On the other end, if you work one or two jobs, you don't have money enough to get a degree, or take a vacation, or take sick days, or go to the doctor, or change cities, or go to a concert, or have a night on the town, or even (sometimes) keeping internet. So yes, I would argue that the real use of money is to buy freedom. It's just that most don't realize it, until they are stuck at the very bottom wondering how the hell they can get out. I'm not saying I did everything perfect, but I don't feel I did anything horribly wrong either. And I'm doing fine now. I ended up getting with a start up doing Node.js and frontend JS work, which was enough to jump start my career. EDIT: And yes, technically I'm falling into a logical fallacy here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
ar7hur 13y ago
I'm surprised nobody has quoted Jean-Jacques Rousseau on money: I love liberty, and I loathe constraint, dependence, and all their kindred annoyances. As long as my purse contains money it secures my independence, and exempts me from the trouble of seeking other money, a trouble of which I have always had a perfect horror; and the dread of seeing the end of my independence, makes me proportionately unwilling to part with my money. The money that we possess is the instrument of liberty, that which we lack and strive to obtain is the instrument of slavery. He did not have a blog, but he did know how to say a lot with just a few words!
andyl 13y ago
Money is an enormous source of suffering. Worldly life and the pursuit of money is a hamster wheel. Poverty and service is the only freedom. I'm not kidding.
privong 13y ago
> And, although it might be true that certain people just get kicks out of making money, science definitely tells us that certain things make us predictably more happy than others. So people who are irrationally attracted to hoard are just victims of uninformed biases. While the statement on science is accurate, those kinds of results are statistical. So, it's incorrect to extend that result to every individual. While people who chase money may be statistically likely to be "victims of uninformed biases", not everyone will be.
cgman 13y ago
"Then why do we run after money?" "I have grown up in a typical middle-class household" How could you possibly know why people run after money? It takes being dirt poor to know why having enough money is a goal to attain. This is the last post I want to read by someone who's never been in total despair and tries to reason about why people want money.
egypturnash 13y ago
Yeah, I think I largely agree with this. A few years ago, my grandmother died and left me a healthy pile of money. Enough that I don't have to have a day job for several years yet, even if I hadn't invested a bunch of it. I live alone in a two-bedroom apartment in a very walkable part of Seattle. I don't own a car, I don't have kids. I spend my days mostly drawing comics, without troubling myself much with deadlines, or whether they're "what the market wants" - I'm two years into a complex and ambitious comic about a lesbian robot lady with reality problems because it's a story I want to tell. I have the freedom to do this instead of grinding out commissions, working as a minor cog in animation or games, or doing weird web-dev things in the intersection of "good artist, half-assed programmer". And I have this freedom because of money. I can afford to travel to several comic book conventions every year and make enough to at least cover my costs, and not stress when a new con turns out to have sales so shitty that I walk away from the last day to hit the beach instead. It is fucking awesome and I really hope I can continue to enjoy this freedom for a very long time.
- simonswords82 13y ago
  Sounds like an amazing lifestyle, I'd love to see some of your work
  - egypturnash 13y ago
    It's pretty much all available free here: http://egypt.urnash.com http://egypt.urnash.com And yeah, it's a pretty good life if you can get lucky enough to have the money to do it.
malandrew 13y ago
The entire basis of money is a Pareto Optimality, thus I would amend that statement to be "The real use of money is to buy freedom at someone else's expense." Now it's also possibly that if we view money through the lens of a Nash equilibrium, that in the long term we are doing what is best for all of us by constantly seeking greater productivity. Therefore, "On a long enough time scale, the real use of money is to buy freedom for every one as money is traded with those that can achieve the greatest productivity." Money is the lubricant that permits the human machine to find the most efficient means of production.
- dnautics 13y ago
  you should read Debt: the first 5000 years, and you will find that you are wrong; the entire basis of money is NOT Pareto Optimality. The author of this book I think makes a criticism that the economic just-so story of money exists to self-justify economics as a field (while conveniently ignoring that he's doing the same thing for anthropology) but the book is nonetheless an excellent treatment of the muddled history of money.
trimbo 13y ago
The parable of the fisherman and the investment banker. http://popculturemeetspsychology.blogspot.com/2011/06/investment-banker-fisherman-parable.html http://popculturemeetspsychology.blogspot.com/2011/06/invest...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
yetanotherphd 13y ago
I liked this article because unlike many on this topic the author's viewpoint was fairly nuanced. However I still think the author goes too far in his claims of how useless money is. First, raising children is very expensive, and to put 2 or 3 kids through college requires a lot of money. And most single people would like to have a family at some point, so they need no excuse for saving money. Second, money (and conspicuous consumption) is a social signal, and demonstrates your ability to earn that money, which not everyone can do.
- benched 13y ago
  I can only just barely imagine the things you're talking about as real things that really happen. Surely they can only happen to other people - to another class of people. My parents didn't put any of us through college. I don't have a family and don't expect to. Sometimes I forget these things are real for some people. I think of them the same way most people think of fame and riches.
pmelendez 13y ago
I thought deeply about this when I read something that Bill Gates said answering a question a while ago. At some point he said that he could understand that people wants to be millionaire because the freedom that brings, but after a threshold the burger is the same for everybody. Freedom in that context is a weird concept, specially when you see a lot of rich people that are slaves of money. I guess it depends on the personality.
- jbeda 13y ago
  That quote made a big impressions to me also. It was from a Q&A session at UW from late 2011. Here is a video: http://www.geekwire.com/2011/its-hamburger-insights-bill-gates/ http://www.geekwire.com/2011/its-hamburger-insights-bill-gat...
  - pmelendez 13y ago
    Thanks! :)
mcgwiz 13y ago
Overall, I agree with the post. > The freedom to do whatever one wants, wherever one wants (within moral limits, I hope). This overreaches. You cannot do "whatever," "wherever". This implies complete control over one's circumstances, which is obviously absurd. More precisely, money buys increased control over your circumstances and life. This is very valuable and empowering, but it is clearly limited.
beto96 13y ago
totally agree
jbeja 13y ago
Good post, but what i don't find to get is the assumption that having or not money fall in some sort of polarity context: "Having money is bad or good?", Neither is something that is needed just that.
clarky07 13y ago
I really like the idea of money as freedom. I'll take it a step further though, and that is the ability to generate at least somewhat passive income whether from a business or from investments. Not having to make money right now is key to freedom.
jwatte 13y ago
There are two scarce resources: human lifetime, and mineral resources. Money lets you assign the disposition of some of those.
mil3s 13y ago
Paras, I enjoyed your article. I too grew up in a middle class family, much the same as you. I was taught to work hard and to use good motives when working. I remember early on, deciding not to take part in activities because I just focused on the money, I was 16 years old. I consider it unfortunate that I repeated that decision many times until my late 30's. Looking back I missed out on many of the experiences that later brought me much joy. So now what? I try to focus on the experiences, instead of just getting the money. I have experimented with less money, and the joy was still there. However I still need money, I still want and work to be comfortable. " I work with many that just focus on the money and point out that "with so much money you can do good for others." I think you can do good for others before you get 'the big pot at the end of the rainbow.' Keep sharing.
zhijiasun 13y ago
quite agree
koshak 13y ago
strange that here's such a hype around this article. Money is a tool. That's it. Use that tool. If you begin to worship a hammer, you're fucked. If you see people who are fucked, help them for the first time. If you see that they like being fucked, then these people are tool. Use that tool.
spacecadet 13y ago
"money only buys you choices" I lived nearly homeless for a year. never felt more free, didnt cost a dime.
douglee650 13y ago
"money is a side effect of excellence, and if it's not - at least you're still excellent" - me

357 points by paraschopra 13y ago

Great post Paras. However, I wish you would have addressed what you do with your new found financial freedom. I suppose running your business takes up most of your time. That's fine as long as it's enjoyable I guess. The question here is, if something, what would you have done differently ? Or, going forward, what are you going to do differently ? Also, the modern economy is poised against us in terms of preserving the value of our wealth. Because of this, I disagree with your final conclusion (the sweating over investments bit..). The hard part about money is making it, but it's also hard to keep it. Inflation eats away at what you have, furthermore, depending on your country (India in this case..) you don't have 250 years of documented economic history to make your investment decisions. If you've reached your financial goal, mine is 25x of annual expenses then yes, maybe you are truly financially independent and now free. You have literally bought freedom. You're right, materialistic pursuits will probably never lead to happiness. However, for some the road to financial independence is longer than others. And yes, many people lose the plot along the way ;) Maybe a more apt title for your post would be: "Having a successful business and a good amount of money buys you freedom" ? :)

paraschopra 13y ago
There's an interesting thread on Quora titled 'What does it feel like to be a self-made millionaire under the age of 25?' http://www.quora.com/Becoming-a-Millionaire/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-a-self-made-millionaire-under-the-age-of-25?share=1 http://www.quora.com/Becoming-a-Millionaire/What-does-it-fee... As you will read through it, terms like insecurity, worry, surprise on unchanged happiness levels would be quite common among the answers. I have been thinking a lot about investments and have concluded that my main criteria is minimum management. If an investment requires active maintenance and management, it's not for me (unless I'm doing it for charity). This excludes many common investments such real estate and stocks. With others (say fixed deposits, metals, etc.) the post-tax returns are less than inflation so it may not be wise. Right now I have decided to invest mostly in mutual funds. I'm okay with the risk because the biggest asset I have is myself. The insecurity about future never leaves us, but as long as I believe that I would be employable in future, I can always jump back. EDIT: added ?share=1 to the URL. Thanks Casseres.
- ashray 13y ago
  Thanks for your response, the Quora thread is very interesting. Another question, and this is a little more personal. Also, I don't mean to be accusatory at all or anything of that sort so please don't take it that way. Do you feel any new found desire to help those less fortunate than you ? I don't mean by providing employment, etc. I'm sure you do plenty of that through your business. I just know plenty of fairly rich people who feel like they're not 'rich enough' to help those that are less fortunate (even people whose net worth is in the tens of millions!)
- Casseres 13y ago
  Handy Tip: Add ?share=1 at the end of the URL so others don't have to log in to read all of the answers. Thanks for sharing, it was a good read.

dnautics 13y ago

By corollary, individual debt is fractional, voluntary slavery. Or possibly it goes the other way. By being wealthy the truest freedom you enjoy is not having to worry about owing anyone anything.

mpweiher 13y ago

"Money is coined freedom" - Fyodor Dostoevsky.

birken 13y ago

There is a really great article in The Atlantic (from 2011) called "Secret Fears of the Super-Rich" on this topic: Excerpt: The respondents turn out to be a generally dissatisfied lot, whose money has contributed to deep anxieties involving love, work, and family. Indeed, they are frequently dissatisfied even with their sizable fortunes. Most of them still do not consider themselves financially secure; for that, they say, they would require on average one-quarter more wealth than they currently possess. (Remember: this is a population with assets in the tens of millions of dollars and above.) Link: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/04/secret-fears-of-the-super-rich/308419/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/04/secret-f...

rahimnathwani 13y ago
I recall a colleague once (~10 years ago) telling me that some people he knew felt that 5k GBP would be enough to solve all of their (money) worries. I thought it absurd, i.e. too low given things like planning for old age. I guess there are people who would think my estimate too low if I said I needed 5m for the same purpose. (not saying 5m is the right number for me or anyone else.)
- paraschopra 13y ago
  One of the projects I want to do is to map living expenses, inflation and life expectancy to know exactly how much money is "enough". My problem is that we forget that we tomorrow should be more valuable to us than today and by the time we get this realization, we might have lost many years (of adulthood).
  - monsterix 13y ago
    > One of the projects I want to do is to map living expenses, inflation and life expectancy to know exactly how much money is "enough". There you go: http://www.nileshtrivedi.com/2012/07/10/how-much-is-enough.html http://www.nileshtrivedi.com/2012/07/10/how-much-is-enough.h...
    - 13y ago

monkeyspaw 13y ago

>A life spent mostly hoarding money and possessions is a wasted life I find it interesting that an article whose tone is one of optimism is so judgmental.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
If you see something wrong with that statement, why not point it out? If someone said getting hooked on heroin and dying with 16 is a waste of a life, would you consider that judgemental, too? To me it's just obvious that people often confuse symbols and things, and not only hoard possessions and money, but other symbols as well. And if I forget that for a while, the advertisement geared towards them reminds me. If that is being judgemental, so be it. I like to think it as being unable to miss certain things.
paraschopra 13y ago
I wasn't being judgmental, mere factual. My hypothesis is that people want to maximize happiness/well-being and hoarding money and possessions is a suboptimal way of doing that. On a slightly related note, Sam Harris has written an excellent book 'The Moral Landscape' where he argues that science and scientists __should__ be judgmental towards morals and life choices.
ashray 13y ago
I think the takeaway is that life would be best spent finding out what it is that truly makes you happy and then pursuing that. A lot of people think 'more money' is the answer to that. More money is just a way to be able to pursue whatever you think will truly make you happy. Whether that's kayaking, kung-fu, dancing, golfing, getting laid, going out for dinner, going on vacation, etc. A means, not the end. Some people just lose the plot on the way and continue down the more money path forever. Those are the people who end up living to work and not working to live.
- lucaspiller 13y ago
  > A lot of people think 'more money' is the answer to that. I'm don't believe this is true, at least directly. I believe people start out thinking that they just need to make X amount of money to fulfil their dreams. The problem is once they start earning money they start changing their lifestyle to match it. Once they are in this situation it is hard to give up the restaurants, cars and houses to chase their dream. As such they decide they want fancier restaurants, fancier cars and even bigger houses which requires more money. It's sad, but people who are comfortable are unlikely to change much, even if the result would make them a lot happier.

gprasanth 13y ago

"the pieces of green paper have value because everybody thinks they have value." Freedom is fallacy.

paulhauggis 13y ago
"Freedom is fallacy." Not really. Having money and working for myself means that I don't have to take orders from a boss or a manager that tells me I need to work another holiday or weekend..only because of their own incompetence. I can also take vacations when I want (which doesn't happen as much..because I do need to run a business) and I don't have to request a day off when I'm sick. This is freedom to me, even though it is based on a piece of paper that's worth is only in someone's mind. This is what I have been working on..for the last 8+ years and achieved it last year.
Alexx 13y ago
Those two statements don't really connect. Money has value because people think it does, but also because it represents economic value. Once you can buy enough economic output to sit at the top of maslow's triangle then you're free to pursue whatever arbitrary things you please. It's not an abstract concept, it's a cold hard fact that's held true for centuries.

forgottenpaswrd 13y ago

When you know self made millionaires you learn one thing: "Money is not wealth". Almost nobody that understands wealth holds money, money is a tool for exchanging things and its value decreases with time. They hold real state, they hold precious metals, they hold stock, they travel, they know people. The people that made money usually like making wealth and don't fear losing it so much, they learn all their life to handle risk with positive results. It is their children or grandchildren who fear it, because they don't. The good thing about being rich is that you could be poor whenever you want. You could also help lots of people in your life, which feels amazing.

joosters 13y ago
The good thing about being rich is that you could be poor whenever you want. What? Name some rich people who are now voluntarily poor! I'd happily bet that 99.9999% of multi-millionaires never choose to be poor in their lifetime. But I'm sure lots of them feel amazing about thinking how they could help people.
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  I believe that was sarcasm however warren buffet is a good example. He's giving all his money away and leaving his kids squat because he doesn't want to create a legacy of trust fund descendants but they certainly won't be poor.
  - sumedh 13y ago
    > and leaving his kids squat His children's charities are getting billions of dollars as well.
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    >He's giving all his money away and leaving his kids squat LOL!
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  I do know one heir to millions who lives on the streets and dumpster dives, thinking that it is morally wrong for him to make use of his monetary advantages in any way. Obviously not the norm.

tluyben2 13y ago

After working very hard on things to 'make money' (no goal attached, just making money, boy I was naive) doing stuff I really didn't like to do (building large EJB based systems for banks/insurance and we had entity beans back then!), I had some realisation that actually, this sucks. I alienated my gf at the time, my friends, my family. I worked, 200+ people under me and it sucked. I thought about it a few days, sold off some stock to make sure I could have freedom. Which I also believe is the main goal of having money. No loans/mortgages, being able to do what you want. And then I started making companies again, doing about the same thing (without the entity beans, or beans at all :), but now it's fun. If it goes badly (the current crisis almost bankrupted one of my companies) I handle it like you are supposed to handle it; in a calculated, company-first, manner. And pull through stronger than before. If you don't have that freedom, you make decisions which often don't reflect the best interest of the company because, well, you cannot pay the rent or feed your family. I always believed in lots of interests and hobbies (my twitter feed must seem rather ADD, but I actually have a planned working day in which I get to do those things) as I think the biggest waste of life you can have is boredom and now I actually get to make companies around those things. Money in the bank gives you the balls and the contacts to do that while as before that wasn't even an option without right-out prostituting yourself. And the freedom to say no to something which would before have been (or have seemed like) a brilliant opportunity because you just don't want to. Freedom usually (unless there are health issues in your family/close friends) also buys you no stress which already comes from the above. But having my own fruit/vegetable garden and having the time to prune the trees and prepare nice food from it etc is very far removed from shit in styrofoam containers and not even tasting it during a client conference call. Edit: I forgot my new-found pet peeve with getting older; people get way to serious over 30. Life's a game and a short ride; money allows you to live it like that.

miles 13y ago

Tim O'Reilly on money: It’s easy to get caught up in the heady buzz of making money. You should regard money as fuel for what you really want to do, not as a goal in and of itself. Money is like gas in the car — you need to pay attention or you’ll end up on the side of the road — but a well-lived life is not a tour of gas stations! Source: http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-fir.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-...

digitalengineer 13y ago
With regards to the car narrative: "Money will take you where you want to go, but it will not replace you as the driver". (A. Rand of course).
maxden 13y ago
Beside the accidental car reference, this seems applicable to Elon Musk.
rikacomet 13y ago
perhaps, its this way, that earning money is so hard compared to other things we do in our life (except love), is we have to push our self so much, to earn it, but once we have enough.. we can't stop. Thats because its also incredibly hard to stop earning money once you know how to do it.
- Artistry121 13y ago
  How hard is earning money? At least in America I know plenty of people who make money by sitting at a cash register ringing up items all day or sitting at a desk in air conditioning. Hard work is the farming and toiling that true advancements in technology, through trade, have made unnecessary and inefficient in today's world. In America everyone has access to more information than ever before, more comfort than ever before and many have to work less than ever before. Everything's amazing and no one is happy.
  - redblacktree 13y ago

blazespin 13y ago

The real use of money is to fund your next startup!

guard-of-terra 13y ago

My take: I really need to own a good apartment. Half commute time is a life changer; not having to cough up rent every month is a life changer; being able to rent it out and move to Southeast Asia and/or get unlimited run time for project/business/startup is a life changer. Once this is accomplished I never strictly 'need' to work unless I need something extravagant or more savings or family :) In theory anyway.

stmartin 13y ago

No, the real use of money is to serve as a medium of exchange, to ultimately be used in the service of others. Any notion of buying one's "freedom" is a delusion at best.

VladRussian2 13y ago

buy freedom? from whom are you going to buy it? who has a freedom for sale? do they have excess supply of it? or would they build a one for you? or are they going to sale you their own one?

tonylemesmer 13y ago

It's possible to go to Antarctica with someone else's money. That's the satisfying thing. Make it a win-win arrangement (I'm not talking about freeloading).

yetanotherphd 13y ago
What are you talking about then?

downandout 13y ago

The importance of money is a matter of perspective. Anyone that has the author's attitude toward money has never been poor. Ask a homeless person, or any of the 50% of the US population that has a net worth of zero or less what their opinion on money is, and it will be markedly different than the author's. The opinion that money doesn't matter is a luxury that only the wealthy can afford.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
The author is from India. Based on that fact, there is a 95% chance that he lived most of his life in poverty comparable to the bottom 5% of Americans. See figure 7: http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/IW3P/IB/2012/11/06/000158349_20121106085546/Rendered/PDF/wps6259.pdf http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServ... It's also worth noting that he's writing this from the perspective of a far more materialistic and status-based society than the US.
- hansy 13y ago
  I have grown up in a typical middle-class household where one is rightly nurtured into not being extravagant. I was taught to value money (which I thoroughly appreciate). Even though, in my childhood, I always got whatever I wanted, the truth is that I never wanted big, expensive toys. The author did not grow up in poverty.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    Read the link I provided. India middle class < America poverty.
    - gress 13y ago
      That's laughable. It may be true purely from a global economic perspective where life is measured in dollars, but in quality of life and social terms it's absolutely false. India's middle class can typically own property and afford servants, and live a life that is far more pleasant than is available to those in poverty in the US.

vijayr 13y ago

We don’t make movies to make money, we make money to make more movies - Walt Disney

MichaelGG 13y ago
Heh. Not anymore: Disney implements a "vault", where they stop selling movies for a certain amount of time in order to drive new sales when they re-release.
- ghaff 13y ago
  Disney was doing that with theatrical re-releases long before there was such a thing as a VCR--much less a DVD.

Joeboy 13y ago

A few years ago, after spending most of my adult life in voluntary-ish poverty I decided to spend a few years earning proper money. By which I mean, significantly more than my first world country's average salary but still peanuts in HN terms. The main differences it's made to me are: 1) I can afford to buy a home, which I expect to remove a large amount of bullshit from my life and makes me feel more secure about my future. 2) When my computer / bicycle / phone / printer / washing machine etc fails I can get the problem fixed without significant disruption to my life. This is probably a much bigger deal than anybody who's always been able to find money for these things realises. 4) It feels good to know I have earning ability if I put the effort in. 5) It's nice to be able to buy stuff, occasionally.

dsirijus 13y ago
I went a similar road (from $50 a month in an underground windowless garage with no utilities whatsoever, to a 200m2 penthouse). I'd put an accent on your point #2 - it really makes a huge difference to just shoot up some money into trivialities and mundane annoyances in your life just to make them magically go away. Because there's so many of them, most cannot afford that. I'd like to add a point though, maybe the most important in my list. 6) increased appeal to other sex. And as far as buying stuff goes, all my wordly posessions fit in one box less than in this picture https://www.dropbox.com/s/us8bavsdjldd029/2013-08-16%2005.42.28.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/us8bavsdjldd029/2013-08-16%2005.42...
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  Was #6 because of how you dressed, or because you could host events at your new place, or some other factors? I'm curious since I have some acquaintances who are morbidly afraid of having members of the opposite sex approach them for their substantial wealth. They go out of their way to mask their material status.
  - dsirijus 13y ago
    I think most of the other points made are just a resultant from desire to appeal to other sex. Security, stuff, housing, all that. It is relatively trivial to sustain oneself, without family and other people dependant on you. Family is hard. And, spoken like a true life form, furthering our gene makeup is what it's all about, for the most part for the most of us. We can do Maslow's hierarchy here or some other model of motivation, but for me, this is the core of it in today's times. Disclaimer here being that I'm speaking from male perspective (and there's an obvious significant difference in motivations accross genders). As for your acquaintances, I'd doubt that it could be generalized to whole "rich" population. What your acquaintances have problem with is, well, their problem. Not a trend.

officemonkey 13y ago

Everybody just loves the word "freedom," like it's some magical super-juice which is the be-all and end-all of the American experience. We will all be free of obligation, pain, responsibility, and any other positive or negative thing soon enough. Instead of the pursuit of freedom, we should dedicate ourselves to obligations that honor ourselves and others. You don't really want "freedom," you want an obligation that you're excited about, you want a responsibility you're eager to take on, you want a job you love doing, you want a relationship that resonates with your values. Everyone shorthands this to "freedom," and sooner or later that becomes the goal instead of the individual obligations you're now able to pursue.

hkmurakami 13y ago
I came to similar conclusions as the OP a few years ago but called it "flexibility" instead of "freedom". Or you might call it "the freedom to choose", which I think is quite different from vanilla overarching "freedom"
Blahah 13y ago
Once you have had your freedom forcefully removed, maintaining it becomes a major source of happiness. > You don't really want "freedom," you want an obligation that you're excited about, you want a responsibility you're eager to take on, you want a job you love doing, you want a relationship that resonates with your values. Absolutely this. "Freedom" encapsulates the state where you are able to pursue those smaller goals without other people or circumstances preventing you. That is something worth seeking. But it's always worth keeping in mind what you want the freedom for.
Cookingboy 13y ago
The more successful people can do things they want to do, and the most successful people can avoid doing things they don't want to do, I guess that in itself is freedom. Money purchases a lot of options, and on the surface, they are either freedom or provide the illusion of freedom.
theorique 13y ago
You don't really want "freedom," you want an obligation that you're excited about, you want a responsibility you're eager to take on, you want a job you love doing, you want a relationship that resonates with your values. And if those things are freely chosen by you, isn't that a good thing? Living your life as a doctor because that was where you were directed by your parents, rather than as the teacher you dream of being, is not where most people want to be. Freedom to choose valuable ways to make a contribution, is good. Freedom as ability to flit randomly from A to B to C, with no obligation or responsibility, is useless.

nihitdesai 13y ago

"we don't build services to make money; we make money to build better services" - Mark Zuckerberg in his letter to shareholders. "I don't intend to build in order to have more clients; I intend to have more clients in order to build" - Howard Roark in Fountainhead

kamaal 13y ago

>>A life spent mostly hoarding money and possessions is a wasted life Having seen the kind of advantage some of my friends born in rich families enjoy, I would love to hoard and posses tons of wealth even if its purely to give away in inheritance. Rich kids enjoy privileges and advantage poor kids can't even dream of. The biggest of which is attitude of course. Rich kids are born with an assumption they are supposed to remain rich forever, become leaders and are free to act as unfair as they want given the their 'natural selection' in becoming rich. No matter how hard you work, you will never be able to truly compete with a rich kid. He will get all the resources, tutions, fee and expenses taken care of to establish a more deeply entrenched position of advantage. The only real way is for you to exactly do what their parents did, and hope your kids will be better off. >>Then why do we run after money? Which brings me to the point, why did you start a company? Speaking purely from a philosophical point. There have been people in India, especially wandering monks who shown you can find all the bliss in life even on bare minimal survival gear. And there is no way you can match their freedom.

base698 13y ago
I think you've missed the point. The point is there is some amount of money that affords you the ability to do what you want. Possessions have the effect of tying you down. Buying a house, assuming you get a mortgage, is a huge expense requiring you to work to pay for it. It ties you to one geographical area and puts stress from having to make the payments. You could spend the downpayment on a house as a down payment of yourself. Find somewhere or something you'd rather do.
- waylandsmithers 13y ago
  | Possessions have the effect of tying you down. This is getting to be a little off topic, but I see comments like this often from people who imagine a mortgage as a massive amount of debt hanging over your head. While I agree that home ownership is not the right move for everyone, and it's definitely true that you can't just up and leave, you can sell your house. It will probably take longer than the 30 or 60 days notice you would have to give to a landlord, but it's not as if you are signing a contract to live there for the next 30 years. | Buying a house, assuming you get a mortgage, is a huge expense requiring you to work to pay for it. Doesn't rent fit that description too? Unless you are crashing on someone's couch or living with your parents, housing is going to cost something. In my experience, first+last+deposit was the standard amount due upon moving in. At the end of the day you at least get to keep some of the money paid on a mortgage. Plus, if you do make it to the end of the loan, you could be paying the same monthly payment that you locked in 30 years ago, whereas rent will probably rise over time.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

The real use of money is to pay taxes.

vorg 13y ago

If you need money to buy it, it's not freedom, it's power.

graeme 13y ago

Freedom has been my main goal for money. As my business has grown I'm happier, but I can see the monetary goalposts shifting as I go. I started two years ago. My initial goal was to build recurring income. I wanted enough to cover expenses, as an initial goal. Achieved that. But I saw I was vulnerable to sudden expenses, or a temporary decline in business. So I wanted an emergency fund. Achieved that. But then I realized I had student loan debt that I would soon have to pay interest on, as I was earning more money and wouldn't qualify for debt relief in the near future. Had a really good autumn and achieved that. Then I noticed that I might have to pay more taxes, because my previous tuition tax credits may run out in 2013. Achieved that, which brings me to the present. I only achieved much of that savings through tutoring. I charge a high rate, but it's not scaleable. So now my current goal is increasingly recurring revenue so that I don't have to sell my time directly. Why am I writing this? At each one of these stages, I had the feeling "If I just achieve this goal, I'll have enough". It was a silly belief in retrospect – it would have been obvious to an outsider that I still had challenges to overcome. Yet presently, I have the feeling "if I double my recurring income, I'll have enough". But I'm certain that once I achieve this goal, I'll see another reason I ought to earn more. Probably the next goal will be "if I just achieve X, I can make work optional by age 33" or "if I just earn X, I won't have to worry about the cost of airfare for trips". I can attest that life IS better now that I've met the goals I listed above. I remember having lots of worries about money that have mostly dissipated. I haven't increased my lifestyle, and have been trying to keep "freedom" as the main goal for earning more money. But the whole process feels shockingly short-sighted. It's as though I'm incapable of imagining how I will feel if I am earning $X or have saved $X.

suhastech 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

Tycho 13y ago

Another perspective I read recently is that 'time is the ultimate form of wealth.' Meaning that if you have a lot of money, you don't need to spend your time on things which do not interest you.

melling 13y ago

"A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do." - Bob Dylan

patmcdonald 13y ago

Disagree. Money does not equal freedom. I know plenty of poor people who live freely and plenty of wealthy people who feel trapped. What money really is is a placeholder for time.

keiferski 13y ago

Although I'm nowhere near financial freedom, I've been wondering lately what "freedom" means in a strictly material sense. Inflation, bad investments, etc. can eat away at a bank account. But material objects seem to be more secure. The problem, of course, is balancing this need for reliable physical possessions with my (and many other's) minimalistic tendencies and general dislike of "stuff". Here's what I've got so far: - a nice house in a nice neighborhood, tricked out with the best in security, fitness, intellectual and entertainment devices. Add in renewable energy sources via windmills/solar panels/ etc to truly be self-sufficient. - enough canned food and rice to last multiple lifetimes.

AndrewKemendo 13y ago

This article and the bulk of the comments strike me as shortsighted. Money is the driver of industry. The more you have, the more you can direct resources towards productive activity. The idea of money being freedom is a great comparison, which I make myself often. The OP and others here however largely limit their notions to hedonistic freedoms and critiquing buying "things." What about building that school or the playground in the neighborhood that can't afford it? What about funding fundamental research that is under funded right now? What about starting a job training program for the under employed. No, there is no such thing as too much money because there is no end to the things that need to be done in the world. So the whole conversation about enough is baffling.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago
Enough for an individual and enough for a community are different. I as an individual am not building any schools, because it would take many times my lifetime income and dominate my entire existence. Some people are born industrialists; the rest of us want our weekends and family.

jonsleet 13y ago

The "real" use of money is dominance. Between you and the things you need or want, money is a proxy controlling access to those things. Control the money, control the people.

glurgann 13y ago

I'm kind of disappointed, I was hoping for a bit more than a "rich people get obsessed with getting richer" type of story (still a good piece). Freedom is indeed bought with money, but not in the way that most people think. There's a shell game going on right now for the lowest class worker. At the time the US economy had it's "oh shit" moment around 2007-2008, I was working at a marketing research company. At the time I was working from home being paid by the hour, but there wasn't a lot of work coming in. I was broke most times after paying bills, so I had to find a quick patch job. I began working at a McDonald's. At this point I was staying available online for most of the day until the afternoon, at which I would go to McDonald's and work all night. I found a bartender gig and started to work that on my off days of McDonald's. At that point, I was making good money, but there wasn't any time I had to myself. I ended up quitting the marketing research job, as I was making more from McDonald's alone. Now I was making OK money, but still not having a single day off. The bartender gig was getting more and more violent (I worked at a rough R&B club getting paid under the table). I eventually left the bartending job (there was a shooting there less than a week later). I don't think I need to explain what life was like working only at McDonald's, even if I was being paid more than most non-managers. It's a bit hard to communicate what was exactly wrong with this picture. As a low wage worker, it was impossible for me to both have time and money, or leverage either of them to get myself into a better position. When I had money, I had no time to leverage it. I couldn't finish a degree, I couldn't even keep a girlfriend. It was easy to slip into depression and substance abuse. I drank a lot. When I did get the chance to go out and have fun, it was to the extreme. When I didn't have money but I had time, it was equally as bad. I couldn't go out to bars, I barely could keep up on bills. I couldn't take time off to go to the doctor. I couldn't afford to lose hours, nor afford the doctor's visit. When I had to go to the emergency room, I had to take the hit to my credit. I couldn't go across town or go to the show, I was behind on either electric or gas most months. And electric people have no qualms in shutting off your power and then laughing in your face when you say you can't even cook food. It's interesting to me that when you're in that trap, it's almost impossible to pull yourself out. On one end of the spectrum, if you have the money to better yourself, you don't have the time to do so. You can't leverage the three jobs on resumes, nor is that a replacement for a degree. On the other end, if you work one or two jobs, you don't have money enough to get a degree, or take a vacation, or take sick days, or go to the doctor, or change cities, or go to a concert, or have a night on the town, or even (sometimes) keeping internet. So yes, I would argue that the real use of money is to buy freedom. It's just that most don't realize it, until they are stuck at the very bottom wondering how the hell they can get out. I'm not saying I did everything perfect, but I don't feel I did anything horribly wrong either. And I'm doing fine now. I ended up getting with a start up doing Node.js and frontend JS work, which was enough to jump start my career. EDIT: And yes, technically I'm falling into a logical fallacy here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

ar7hur 13y ago

I'm surprised nobody has quoted Jean-Jacques Rousseau on money: I love liberty, and I loathe constraint, dependence, and all their kindred annoyances. As long as my purse contains money it secures my independence, and exempts me from the trouble of seeking other money, a trouble of which I have always had a perfect horror; and the dread of seeing the end of my independence, makes me proportionately unwilling to part with my money. The money that we possess is the instrument of liberty, that which we lack and strive to obtain is the instrument of slavery. He did not have a blog, but he did know how to say a lot with just a few words!

andyl 13y ago

Money is an enormous source of suffering. Worldly life and the pursuit of money is a hamster wheel. Poverty and service is the only freedom. I'm not kidding.

privong 13y ago

> And, although it might be true that certain people just get kicks out of making money, science definitely tells us that certain things make us predictably more happy than others. So people who are irrationally attracted to hoard are just victims of uninformed biases. While the statement on science is accurate, those kinds of results are statistical. So, it's incorrect to extend that result to every individual. While people who chase money may be statistically likely to be "victims of uninformed biases", not everyone will be.

cgman 13y ago

"Then why do we run after money?" "I have grown up in a typical middle-class household" How could you possibly know why people run after money? It takes being dirt poor to know why having enough money is a goal to attain. This is the last post I want to read by someone who's never been in total despair and tries to reason about why people want money.

egypturnash 13y ago

Yeah, I think I largely agree with this. A few years ago, my grandmother died and left me a healthy pile of money. Enough that I don't have to have a day job for several years yet, even if I hadn't invested a bunch of it. I live alone in a two-bedroom apartment in a very walkable part of Seattle. I don't own a car, I don't have kids. I spend my days mostly drawing comics, without troubling myself much with deadlines, or whether they're "what the market wants" - I'm two years into a complex and ambitious comic about a lesbian robot lady with reality problems because it's a story I want to tell. I have the freedom to do this instead of grinding out commissions, working as a minor cog in animation or games, or doing weird web-dev things in the intersection of "good artist, half-assed programmer". And I have this freedom because of money. I can afford to travel to several comic book conventions every year and make enough to at least cover my costs, and not stress when a new con turns out to have sales so shitty that I walk away from the last day to hit the beach instead. It is fucking awesome and I really hope I can continue to enjoy this freedom for a very long time.

simonswords82 13y ago
Sounds like an amazing lifestyle, I'd love to see some of your work
- egypturnash 13y ago
  It's pretty much all available free here: http://egypt.urnash.com http://egypt.urnash.com And yeah, it's a pretty good life if you can get lucky enough to have the money to do it.

malandrew 13y ago

The entire basis of money is a Pareto Optimality, thus I would amend that statement to be "The real use of money is to buy freedom at someone else's expense." Now it's also possibly that if we view money through the lens of a Nash equilibrium, that in the long term we are doing what is best for all of us by constantly seeking greater productivity. Therefore, "On a long enough time scale, the real use of money is to buy freedom for every one as money is traded with those that can achieve the greatest productivity." Money is the lubricant that permits the human machine to find the most efficient means of production.

dnautics 13y ago
you should read Debt: the first 5000 years, and you will find that you are wrong; the entire basis of money is NOT Pareto Optimality. The author of this book I think makes a criticism that the economic just-so story of money exists to self-justify economics as a field (while conveniently ignoring that he's doing the same thing for anthropology) but the book is nonetheless an excellent treatment of the muddled history of money.

trimbo 13y ago

The parable of the fisherman and the investment banker. http://popculturemeetspsychology.blogspot.com/2011/06/investment-banker-fisherman-parable.html http://popculturemeetspsychology.blogspot.com/2011/06/invest...

deleted 13y ago

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yetanotherphd 13y ago

I liked this article because unlike many on this topic the author's viewpoint was fairly nuanced. However I still think the author goes too far in his claims of how useless money is. First, raising children is very expensive, and to put 2 or 3 kids through college requires a lot of money. And most single people would like to have a family at some point, so they need no excuse for saving money. Second, money (and conspicuous consumption) is a social signal, and demonstrates your ability to earn that money, which not everyone can do.

benched 13y ago
I can only just barely imagine the things you're talking about as real things that really happen. Surely they can only happen to other people - to another class of people. My parents didn't put any of us through college. I don't have a family and don't expect to. Sometimes I forget these things are real for some people. I think of them the same way most people think of fame and riches.

pmelendez 13y ago

I thought deeply about this when I read something that Bill Gates said answering a question a while ago. At some point he said that he could understand that people wants to be millionaire because the freedom that brings, but after a threshold the burger is the same for everybody. Freedom in that context is a weird concept, specially when you see a lot of rich people that are slaves of money. I guess it depends on the personality.

jbeda 13y ago
That quote made a big impressions to me also. It was from a Q&A session at UW from late 2011. Here is a video: http://www.geekwire.com/2011/its-hamburger-insights-bill-gates/ http://www.geekwire.com/2011/its-hamburger-insights-bill-gat...
- pmelendez 13y ago
  Thanks! :)

mcgwiz 13y ago

Overall, I agree with the post. > The freedom to do whatever one wants, wherever one wants (within moral limits, I hope). This overreaches. You cannot do "whatever," "wherever". This implies complete control over one's circumstances, which is obviously absurd. More precisely, money buys increased control over your circumstances and life. This is very valuable and empowering, but it is clearly limited.

beto96 13y ago

totally agree

jbeja 13y ago

Good post, but what i don't find to get is the assumption that having or not money fall in some sort of polarity context: "Having money is bad or good?", Neither is something that is needed just that.

clarky07 13y ago

I really like the idea of money as freedom. I'll take it a step further though, and that is the ability to generate at least somewhat passive income whether from a business or from investments. Not having to make money right now is key to freedom.

jwatte 13y ago

There are two scarce resources: human lifetime, and mineral resources. Money lets you assign the disposition of some of those.

mil3s 13y ago

Paras, I enjoyed your article. I too grew up in a middle class family, much the same as you. I was taught to work hard and to use good motives when working. I remember early on, deciding not to take part in activities because I just focused on the money, I was 16 years old. I consider it unfortunate that I repeated that decision many times until my late 30's. Looking back I missed out on many of the experiences that later brought me much joy. So now what? I try to focus on the experiences, instead of just getting the money. I have experimented with less money, and the joy was still there. However I still need money, I still want and work to be comfortable. " I work with many that just focus on the money and point out that "with so much money you can do good for others." I think you can do good for others before you get 'the big pot at the end of the rainbow.' Keep sharing.

zhijiasun 13y ago

quite agree

koshak 13y ago

strange that here's such a hype around this article. Money is a tool. That's it. Use that tool. If you begin to worship a hammer, you're fucked. If you see people who are fucked, help them for the first time. If you see that they like being fucked, then these people are tool. Use that tool.

spacecadet 13y ago

"money only buys you choices" I lived nearly homeless for a year. never felt more free, didnt cost a dime.

douglee650 13y ago

"money is a side effect of excellence, and if it's not - at least you're still excellent" - me