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> The entertainment industry has just never really been able to get their heads around how to best develop a new, sustainable business model The entertainment

> The entertainment industry has just never really been able to get their heads around how to best develop a new, sustainable business model The entertainment industry seems to be doing better than ever. Did piracy actually reverse growth at any point in their history? Today you can buy new-release movies from your PC, smartphone, tablet, set-top box or smart TV and either download or stream them instantly. You can buy combo-packs in store that come with both physical discs you own and a digital download license. The download-only rights for new releases cost substantially less than discs; charging the same was a common complaint of pirates on messages boards for years (e.g. today you can buy Elysium on Amazon at $3.99 to rent, $12.99 for digital purchase, $19.99 for DVD or $27.99 for BR+Download). The digital versions are available as soon as, or even earlier than, the disc versions. Tens of thousands of movies that few would want to purchase are available on a dozen streaming services for less dollars a month than buying a single movie outright. Almost every objection to legal purchases made by pirates over the years has been answered; the studios gave us what we asked for. Their content is available at reasonable prices virtually wherever and whenever you want it, at least within their own countries (international licensing is still a mess). BitTorrent's share of US internet traffic went from 33% in 2006 to 21% in 2011 to less than 7% in 2013. I don't think that's coincidental.

superuser2 13y ago
A large amount of content is available, but it's mostly the second string. Movies I actually want to watch are unavailable on Netflix and Amazon because the studios won't license them for streaming. Earlier analysis of this phenomenon on HN explained it by saying that once something is on Netflix, all hopes of making money on DVD sales are gone. Hollywood wants to sell physical media because that is what it knows how to do and has always done. Therefore, movies will only be released to Netflix, Amazon, etc. if the studio is particularly forward-leaning or (more likely) evidence suggests that it's made all the money it's going to make in physical media distribution so there's no harm in offering it up for streaming. If I recall correctly, Netflix's catalog improved substantially for a good while, but then large portions of it were retracted. That's another thing that has to stop before legitimate digital distribution is "good enough" - studios need to stop pulling movies every time they feel like it. It pretty clearly demonstrates an attitude that digital distribution channels are toys to be put away at any time rather than a core component of their business.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  Virtually all "first-string" content is available on Amazon/iTunes/Play/VOD for purchase or rental. Wanting new releases to be available on $8/month streaming services is just not a realistic expectation. What major studio is refusing to sell digital copies?
  - opendais 13y ago
    All of them. Try watching A Knight's Tale on Netflix streaming. It is an average movie from over a decade ago. There are a ton of average movies from 3+ years ago that I cannot get streaming, that was just the first one that came to mind. So please, please stop using such arguments when 25% of the time I can't find the movie streaming when I look for it. EDIT: I probably should add they also revoke access [e.g. the Disney Christmas movie story from a week ago] to stuff that was specifically purchased, not merely bundled with a streaming service. So, as a group, they are pretty uncooperative because they don't want to have to follow the radio model of pricing/licensing which is what they should be doing [especially for movies over a decade old!]
    - zwily 13y ago
      You're mixing up "streaming" and "Netflix streaming". Pretty much any modern movie is available to stream.
    - dangrossman 13y ago
      A Knight's Tale can be streamed on: * HitBliss * XFINITY Streampix It's available for digital rental on: * Amazon * iTunes * Google Play * YouTube * Sony Entertainment Network * HitBliss It's available for digital purchase on: * Amazon * iTunes * Google Play * Vudu * Redbox Instant It's available On-Demand with an Encore subscription. There's no ethical reason to pirate this movie in the US. "Cannot watch it now without paying for it" is NOT the same as "cannot get streaming".
- awj 13y ago
  It sounds like your idea of content is "things on Netflix or free on Amazon". No, you will not get new releases there and in my opinion it is unreasonable to expect that. I was honestly surprised at how quickly The Avengers found its way to Netflix streaming. I figured there was still enough money to be made off iTunes/Amazon/etc rentals and purchases to preclude giving it away that cheaply.
flynth882 13y ago
>Today you can buy new-release movies from your PC, smartphone, tablet, set-top box or smart TV and either download or stream them instantly. Yes, you can if you live in US or UK. Try that in 80% of other countries in the world... It is extremely frustrating to go to my home country(Poland) for Christmas and not being able to use Netflix, not being able to buy any films and practically only have TPB and Usenet as a source of content as if it was 1999 again.
- hakanderyal 13y ago
  Same in Turkey. Nobody heard of Netflix outside of the tech circle. There is only a handful of movies on iTunes store, not to mention we were finally able to access iTunes store last year. And, there is no way, yes no way, to legally watch T.V. series online. You can buy box sets, when they finally arrive to local stores. Or you can buy them online, but than there is the limitation at customs for only 5 items allowed, per person, per year. I'm tired of shouting 'Shut up and take my money!', but it seems distributors don't care.
- abalashov 13y ago
  Indeed, I've spent most of the last year and a half in Armenia (and some time in Germany), and have had to come up with elaborate VPN + NAT (for Netflix) / Squid proxy (for Hulu+) setups through the US to get the content I already pay for, with my American Visa, from my American bank, homed to my American address.
tesseractive 13y ago
> The entertainment industry seems to be doing better than ever. Did piracy actually reverse growth at any point in their history? The shift to digital absolutely did reverse growth in the music industry (part of the entertainment industry) for about a decade. Exactly how much of that can be attributed to "piracy" in particular is a question that's difficult to answer, because it was a combination of not being able to easily buy music in the way people wanted combined with piracy that created a situation in which it was considerably easier to pirate/share music than to buy it.
Spearchucker 13y ago
"...the studios gave us what we asked for..." Not quite. I still can't take a movie I purchased using Xbox Video and play it in Windows Media Player. I can't play it on an Android device, an iPhone, iPad, Lunix, OSX... In fact I can't play it anywhere that isn't a Windows Phone 8, Windows Metro or an Xbox. And even then only once I've signed in with a Microsoft ID.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- dangrossman 13y ago
  If you had chosen to buy that movie from Amazon or Google Play instead, you could play it on all of those devices (yes, Google purchases can be watched on iOS devices). Amazon even gives you a WMV file for your Windows Media Player in addition to the streaming rights. The studios didn't force you to choose a more restrictive seller. You can't play a DVD from Wal-Mart on your phone either, but making more choices available to you is not a bad thing.
  - Flimm 13y ago
    Piracy still has a much better product to offer. No restrictions at all.
    - sbarre 13y ago
      Except for the long-term downside you're conveniently ignoring, where the producers of the content don't get paid?
      - freehunter 13y ago
        Also tens of thousands of dollars in fines plus possible jail time.
      - gcb1 13y ago
        i think you missed his point completely. there is a industry with a lousy product, that can make a much better offering instantly with very little effort, but they are to afraid to do so. the consumer who opt for piracy is not actively choosing to harm the content creators. but the ecosystem that preys on those content creators is killing itself by preventing people from even buying their products with comfort, and in doing so is harming the content creators. think about all the bands that started to distribute their own music. nin is way better off. as well as their fans. the only casuality is the record labels and others that used to prey on the band, who used to provide a benefit for the fans when distribution was physical. now, all they do is screw the content creators and fans in a vain attempt to remain relevant and siphoning dollars as they are used to.
guelo 13y ago
What about the objection that they corrupt our political and legal systems by buying themselves laws like copyright extensions, DMCA and SOPA? They're not going to stop doing that? Well fuck them, they won't get a penny from me. But I'm still going to enjoy the fruits of our creative culture. Deal with it.
ssmoot 13y ago
I haven't pirated anything for probably 8 years or so. I always generally preferred to pay for stuff. That said, you're making a pretty weak assertion. iTunes often lags other distribution channels, oftentimes by months it seems. These oh-so-convenient alternative distribution channels are also DRMed up to the nines. I've bought all the kid's movies on my iPad through iTunes. Can I play them in my minivan through an HDMI to Composite adapter? Only for about 10 seconds. Then the screen goes black and the iPad says "this is not an approved playback device". You don't have freedom and choice today. Unless I want to have random purchases over three or four services I need to consolidate my purchases for convenience. If I buy an Android phone I can't view the Google Play content at home (without yet another device and HDCP hookup). When HDCP dies the death it deserves, even with DRM still present, life for the honest consumer will get a lot better. Until then... yeah, no, the "industry" is far from giving me what I want.
Aloha 13y ago
It's not just movies. I like the TV show Downton Abbey, it airs in the UK in the fall, but not in the US until after the new year - I'm willing to pay money, but cannot until they decide to release it here. I'm also a fan of old TV shows, most of which I cant buy at any price because they are unwilling to release them at any price. I'm perfectly content to pay for any of this stuff - but often its not available for purchase, only for pirating. Same goes for movies - I can buy the DVD for 20 dollars or 'buy' an online copy for 12 dollars (sometimes its the same price as the DVD) - but it's DRM encumbered and I don't get a physical file I can watch anywhere I want - How is that a better value? What I've found and seen in a handful of studies - is the majority will only turn to pirating after exhausting the legal options to buy a media product, thats been my experience. I'd rather pay a blanket license on my internet bill (say 10%) and be able to download whatever I want from wherever I want, whenever I want. Region Licensing, DRM, strange pricing oddities and the like will keep pirating around for the foreseeable future.
eridius 13y ago
> Almost every objection to legal purchases made by pirates over the years has been answered How about the big one: content available in a timely fashion? For example, TV shows still don't show up on iTunes until typically the next day. Movies don't show up on Netflix for a long time. Movies also take a while to show up on iTunes, and even then they're often restricted to purchase-only for a few weeks.
wepple 13y ago
An an Australian, I wish I knew what a "Netflix" was.
PakG1 13y ago
The thing about companies that complain about piracy is that they do the math based on lost sales. So as long as piracy exists, they can always do their math and show how much sales they've lost. If the amount is significant, they can still complain. The unfortunate thing is that they can't prove that if piracy was impossible, that the resulting sales numbers would instantaneously match their forecasted numbers. You'd never for example see poor people in a poor country be willing to cough up money for Windows and Office licenses if piracy for Microsoft products suddenly stopped. Likewise for entertainment products like movies. And yet, those companies continue to wave around their calculations as gospel truth.

superuser2 13y ago

A large amount of content is available, but it's mostly the second string. Movies I actually want to watch are unavailable on Netflix and Amazon because the studios won't license them for streaming. Earlier analysis of this phenomenon on HN explained it by saying that once something is on Netflix, all hopes of making money on DVD sales are gone. Hollywood wants to sell physical media because that is what it knows how to do and has always done. Therefore, movies will only be released to Netflix, Amazon, etc. if the studio is particularly forward-leaning or (more likely) evidence suggests that it's made all the money it's going to make in physical media distribution so there's no harm in offering it up for streaming. If I recall correctly, Netflix's catalog improved substantially for a good while, but then large portions of it were retracted. That's another thing that has to stop before legitimate digital distribution is "good enough" - studios need to stop pulling movies every time they feel like it. It pretty clearly demonstrates an attitude that digital distribution channels are toys to be put away at any time rather than a core component of their business.

dangrossman 13y ago
Virtually all "first-string" content is available on Amazon/iTunes/Play/VOD for purchase or rental. Wanting new releases to be available on $8/month streaming services is just not a realistic expectation. What major studio is refusing to sell digital copies?
- opendais 13y ago
  All of them. Try watching A Knight's Tale on Netflix streaming. It is an average movie from over a decade ago. There are a ton of average movies from 3+ years ago that I cannot get streaming, that was just the first one that came to mind. So please, please stop using such arguments when 25% of the time I can't find the movie streaming when I look for it. EDIT: I probably should add they also revoke access [e.g. the Disney Christmas movie story from a week ago] to stuff that was specifically purchased, not merely bundled with a streaming service. So, as a group, they are pretty uncooperative because they don't want to have to follow the radio model of pricing/licensing which is what they should be doing [especially for movies over a decade old!]
  - zwily 13y ago
    You're mixing up "streaming" and "Netflix streaming". Pretty much any modern movie is available to stream.
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    A Knight's Tale can be streamed on: * HitBliss * XFINITY Streampix It's available for digital rental on: * Amazon * iTunes * Google Play * YouTube * Sony Entertainment Network * HitBliss It's available for digital purchase on: * Amazon * iTunes * Google Play * Vudu * Redbox Instant It's available On-Demand with an Encore subscription. There's no ethical reason to pirate this movie in the US. "Cannot watch it now without paying for it" is NOT the same as "cannot get streaming".
awj 13y ago
It sounds like your idea of content is "things on Netflix or free on Amazon". No, you will not get new releases there and in my opinion it is unreasonable to expect that. I was honestly surprised at how quickly The Avengers found its way to Netflix streaming. I figured there was still enough money to be made off iTunes/Amazon/etc rentals and purchases to preclude giving it away that cheaply.

flynth882 13y ago

>Today you can buy new-release movies from your PC, smartphone, tablet, set-top box or smart TV and either download or stream them instantly. Yes, you can if you live in US or UK. Try that in 80% of other countries in the world... It is extremely frustrating to go to my home country(Poland) for Christmas and not being able to use Netflix, not being able to buy any films and practically only have TPB and Usenet as a source of content as if it was 1999 again.

hakanderyal 13y ago
Same in Turkey. Nobody heard of Netflix outside of the tech circle. There is only a handful of movies on iTunes store, not to mention we were finally able to access iTunes store last year. And, there is no way, yes no way, to legally watch T.V. series online. You can buy box sets, when they finally arrive to local stores. Or you can buy them online, but than there is the limitation at customs for only 5 items allowed, per person, per year. I'm tired of shouting 'Shut up and take my money!', but it seems distributors don't care.
abalashov 13y ago
Indeed, I've spent most of the last year and a half in Armenia (and some time in Germany), and have had to come up with elaborate VPN + NAT (for Netflix) / Squid proxy (for Hulu+) setups through the US to get the content I already pay for, with my American Visa, from my American bank, homed to my American address.

tesseractive 13y ago

> The entertainment industry seems to be doing better than ever. Did piracy actually reverse growth at any point in their history? The shift to digital absolutely did reverse growth in the music industry (part of the entertainment industry) for about a decade. Exactly how much of that can be attributed to "piracy" in particular is a question that's difficult to answer, because it was a combination of not being able to easily buy music in the way people wanted combined with piracy that created a situation in which it was considerably easier to pirate/share music than to buy it.

Spearchucker 13y ago

"...the studios gave us what we asked for..." Not quite. I still can't take a movie I purchased using Xbox Video and play it in Windows Media Player. I can't play it on an Android device, an iPhone, iPad, Lunix, OSX... In fact I can't play it anywhere that isn't a Windows Phone 8, Windows Metro or an Xbox. And even then only once I've signed in with a Microsoft ID.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dangrossman 13y ago
If you had chosen to buy that movie from Amazon or Google Play instead, you could play it on all of those devices (yes, Google purchases can be watched on iOS devices). Amazon even gives you a WMV file for your Windows Media Player in addition to the streaming rights. The studios didn't force you to choose a more restrictive seller. You can't play a DVD from Wal-Mart on your phone either, but making more choices available to you is not a bad thing.
- Flimm 13y ago
  Piracy still has a much better product to offer. No restrictions at all.
  - sbarre 13y ago
    Except for the long-term downside you're conveniently ignoring, where the producers of the content don't get paid?
    - freehunter 13y ago
      Also tens of thousands of dollars in fines plus possible jail time.
    - gcb1 13y ago
      i think you missed his point completely. there is a industry with a lousy product, that can make a much better offering instantly with very little effort, but they are to afraid to do so. the consumer who opt for piracy is not actively choosing to harm the content creators. but the ecosystem that preys on those content creators is killing itself by preventing people from even buying their products with comfort, and in doing so is harming the content creators. think about all the bands that started to distribute their own music. nin is way better off. as well as their fans. the only casuality is the record labels and others that used to prey on the band, who used to provide a benefit for the fans when distribution was physical. now, all they do is screw the content creators and fans in a vain attempt to remain relevant and siphoning dollars as they are used to.

guelo 13y ago

What about the objection that they corrupt our political and legal systems by buying themselves laws like copyright extensions, DMCA and SOPA? They're not going to stop doing that? Well fuck them, they won't get a penny from me. But I'm still going to enjoy the fruits of our creative culture. Deal with it.

ssmoot 13y ago

I haven't pirated anything for probably 8 years or so. I always generally preferred to pay for stuff. That said, you're making a pretty weak assertion. iTunes often lags other distribution channels, oftentimes by months it seems. These oh-so-convenient alternative distribution channels are also DRMed up to the nines. I've bought all the kid's movies on my iPad through iTunes. Can I play them in my minivan through an HDMI to Composite adapter? Only for about 10 seconds. Then the screen goes black and the iPad says "this is not an approved playback device". You don't have freedom and choice today. Unless I want to have random purchases over three or four services I need to consolidate my purchases for convenience. If I buy an Android phone I can't view the Google Play content at home (without yet another device and HDCP hookup). When HDCP dies the death it deserves, even with DRM still present, life for the honest consumer will get a lot better. Until then... yeah, no, the "industry" is far from giving me what I want.

Aloha 13y ago

It's not just movies. I like the TV show Downton Abbey, it airs in the UK in the fall, but not in the US until after the new year - I'm willing to pay money, but cannot until they decide to release it here. I'm also a fan of old TV shows, most of which I cant buy at any price because they are unwilling to release them at any price. I'm perfectly content to pay for any of this stuff - but often its not available for purchase, only for pirating. Same goes for movies - I can buy the DVD for 20 dollars or 'buy' an online copy for 12 dollars (sometimes its the same price as the DVD) - but it's DRM encumbered and I don't get a physical file I can watch anywhere I want - How is that a better value? What I've found and seen in a handful of studies - is the majority will only turn to pirating after exhausting the legal options to buy a media product, thats been my experience. I'd rather pay a blanket license on my internet bill (say 10%) and be able to download whatever I want from wherever I want, whenever I want. Region Licensing, DRM, strange pricing oddities and the like will keep pirating around for the foreseeable future.

eridius 13y ago

> Almost every objection to legal purchases made by pirates over the years has been answered How about the big one: content available in a timely fashion? For example, TV shows still don't show up on iTunes until typically the next day. Movies don't show up on Netflix for a long time. Movies also take a while to show up on iTunes, and even then they're often restricted to purchase-only for a few weeks.

wepple 13y ago

An an Australian, I wish I knew what a "Netflix" was.

PakG1 13y ago

The thing about companies that complain about piracy is that they do the math based on lost sales. So as long as piracy exists, they can always do their math and show how much sales they've lost. If the amount is significant, they can still complain. The unfortunate thing is that they can't prove that if piracy was impossible, that the resulting sales numbers would instantaneously match their forecasted numbers. You'd never for example see poor people in a poor country be willing to cough up money for Windows and Office licenses if piracy for Microsoft products suddenly stopped. Likewise for entertainment products like movies. And yet, those companies continue to wave around their calculations as gospel truth.